Everyone else knows t-rump is a criminal before, during. RWers are scared. Spin, spin, spin . . .

point! Hoping that applies this time, as well.

but the nut job voters believe every word out of trumps mouth is gospel and will vote for him no matter what

team limbaugh blast 40 states with 80 senators with no alts for politics other than free easy talk radio

they believe him, like the fox dipshits, because everything they say has already been pounded into the earholes of 50 mil a week for 30 years

they'll be less likely to believe him when the casual recipient finds out russia's been using talk radio for at least a decade. media/dems just need to figure that out.

it is pretty obvious they are not really thinking for themselves

make sure americans don't have free high speed - so liars like that have more power

After watching this mornings Mueller testimony, just for fun I switched to listening to RW radio, esp Limbaugh and another supreme RW imbecile rag on and on and on. I can only imagine that the Republicans/Trumpites only listen to the hard right wing assholes and never even watched the mornings broadcast. I noted many total lies, and many many 180's quotes from what was actually said in the mornings testimony.

That is "how they roll", and they are damn good at reaching their target audience. Much of it seemed well orchestrated and well rehearsed.....just waiting for the moment the testimony ended to roll out their falsehoods and mis-representations.

Everyone should listen every once in a while to see their masterful art of lies, mis-representations, and outright flagrant shit.....
They really rally their listeners and focus on convincing them of their "truth" which belongs in another universe.

One super whopper was Rush telling his listeners that 80 % of the U.S. Media is owned by Democrat Liberal owners. LOL LOL LOL
THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF REALITY............They say it and their minions all believe it un-questionably and report it over and over.

Oh, and did anyone notice that the Repub Senate "" the investigations that are on going into Russian interference of our past and future elections?????????????? The Repubs have been playing the Dems for years using Trump's fanatical acting out to divert attention from everything the Republican Senate is doing behind the scenes.

A bunch of Left wing commentators should concentrate DAILY on reporting all the un-fathomable amount of stuff the Republican Senate is concentrating on and doing under the cover of Trumps daily bullshit.

it was a disaster and it doesn't have anything to do with "entertainment value". One of the few nuggets this debacle succeeded in bringing to the fore was erased at the opening of the Intel session to boot. Other than that, the Intel session seems to be going a little better though.

damn report. Pretty damn painful to watch this morning.

It was outlined in Barr's letter to Mueller just prior to the hearings.

Why should Mueller give a shit what Barr thinks, says, wants.... Barr is, through default and for all practical purposes, a Russian agent.

Mueller no longer works for Barr, so Barr has no hold over him.

Same with the OLC policy. There is no written legislative policy concerning that, only a "suggestion" in some departmental memo. So that "suggestion" is the basis for the president being above the law?

Thanks to turdface and the treasonous republicans (ALL of them) our democracy has run so far off the rails it may never stabilize.

He is a letter of the law person, and it is so engrained in him he is not going to swim upriver, when he has been told he can't. Mueller is not the villain here, Barr and tRump are!

what's in it more than he. Why we need to get his deputies. Trump blocking of course. Strikes me that all the years we said he would know this and that... probably not true. He was the manager. We needed middle management.

Trump wasn't going to be charged either way based on the OLC. The wing nuts like to say Trump is totally innocent on the grounds that he wasn't charged. But, in this case you can't say it totally exonerates because there wouldn't have been a charge either way. That's my understanding. Am I wrong?

But other than that, you are absolutely correct.

a) attack Mueller's credibility, and
b) obfuscate by trying to bring Clinton into it, and
c) ask questions they knew he'd been ordered by Barr not to answer, so they can have it on the 'record.'

However, in spite of that, we have established that Trump has obstructed justice on at least one occasion, and has tampered with a witness on at least one occasion.

So I wouldn't call it a 'disaster' except perhaps for Trump.

The corporate media can spin it however they want, and right wing trolls can laugh and joke and make fun of Mueller's stammering, but those facts still remain.

wasn't the most important thing in the world. The hearing was not riveting entertainment, but it wasn't meant to be. It's like comparing trials on TV shows and movies with real trials. In a former life I did trials. Trials are about 95% excruciatingly boring; much of the time is spent authenticating documents and exhibits and asking interminable but necessary background questions. Witnesses mumble and hesitate and don't remember. You have to repeat questions. You have to show them exhibits and let them read documents. TV trials are exciting; witnesses don't stammer and mumble and sometimes they freak out entertainingly. That does not happen in real life. It does not happen in Congressional hearings. Even the Watergate hearings were kind of dull until Dean and Butterfield turned up. Expectations for a Dean moment were unrealistic, but even so, the important information is now out there.

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There is this fantasy that a "hearing" is somehow "exciting"... But it never will be due to its very nature of being nothing more than questions and hopefully responsive answers, with occasional quips here and there to break the tension or the monotony. The "optics" come with the spin after the hearings are done.

And any "impeachment inquiry" is going to be nothing but more of what we are seeing today. Not that one shouldn't be started at some point but it will be the same type of format.

This is not some Netflix drama series.

indicated they would be willing to allow Mueller to testify in private and release the transcript.

People seemed to think the only point of the hearing was to put on a show for people, not to gather information and get facts on the record.

Now many of those same people are disappointed because they didn't get the show they wanted but we're never going to get.

is the same as the theatrics of a fictional television courtroom drama show, with a prosecutor pacing the floor waving documents in the air and pointing an accusatory finger at a witness being questioned while the defense attorneys yell "objection!" every 5 minutes and a judge sits there facepalming. Something akin to the very end of the film "A Few Good Men" with a Jack Nicholson yelling "You can't handle the truth!!!".

YOU'RE DAMNED RIGHT I DID!

said no attorney and no witness in a real courtroom ever.

I didn't think it would be like on TV at all, but wow - it is booooooooooooooooooring most of the time. I was on a two-day trial. What surprised me the most was how often there were long pauses in which nothing happened between witnesses, or while lawyers talked with clients, and how often the jury was asked to leave the room so the lawyers and judge could talk.

And definitely no James Spader Boston Legal style soapboxing. (though BL didn't come out until 20 years after I first did jury duty...)

that most lawyers are not as articulate as a TV or movie script. Granted some are, but not many.

I am grateful that some of the people on DU understand that Mueller's testimony is providing Congress with the info for impeachment proceedings, as well as, recourse for criminal charges to be filed on Trump after he leaves office.

When I first started trying cases, my mentors stressed to me that trials aren't about Perry Mason dramatic moments but careful and often boring slogs. The point isn't to break witnesses down, force on-the-stand confessions or offer attorneys great opportunities to preen and shout "Ah-HAH!" They are about getting information into the record to later be pulled together into a narrative of the case and presented to the jury.

In fact, often the worst thing an attorney can do is to try to "make their case" in the
moment or telegraph since that not only can confuse the jury before they have the full picture but also telegraph to the opposing side where they're going and what their strategy or case theory is while they can still respond to it.

This is something I've had to consistently caution my Trial Advocacy students against. They're not thrilled about having their dreams of being Lt. Caffrey dashed, but it makes them much more effective trial attorneys in the end.

And regarding Dean and Butterfield, let's not forget they were fact witnesses offering substantive testimony about their personal knowledge and first-hand observations and conversations, which is very different than an investigator testifying about an investigation and the conclusions reached therein. If Leon Jaworski or Archibald Cox had testified before the Senate Watergate Committee, they would have been much more Mueller and much less Dean and Butterfield.

I liked what Mueller did today but he said just about everything we already knew. Now, I would certainly be the last person anyone should get to try a case, to convince a jury, or to convince the people, glad I can ask an expert.

How many cases that you tried did you bring in prosecutors to testify to win your case? I'm just guessing now that you brought in actual witnesses or defendants to testify to win your case.

Democrats aren't going to win over the American people by bringing in prosecutors, they need to bring in witnesses. Democrats don't need to ask Robert Mueller, did Donald Trump ask Don McGahn to fire you? Democrats need to ask Don McGahn, under oath, did Donald Trump ask you to fire Robert Mueller. That's my uninformed opinion. Democrats need to call in Corey Lewandowski and Chris Christie and Hope Hicks who are real witnesses who can answer questions directly.

The only way that Democrats are going to get real witnesses to testify is through an impeachment hearing, the legislative hearings will be stalled through the courts until after the election.

Just my inexperienced opinion.

proceeding than they are now?

You know the answer to that one. A judicial hearing carries more clout with the courts. Time is our enemy, Trump/Barr only want to stall everything in court.

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Since you want to argue law and legal strategy, do it like a lawyer ...

Test your argument by playing it out as lawyers are trained to do:

1. If the House opened an impeachment inquiry tomorrow, what would be the next three steps the Judiciary Committee would take to get these people to testify?

2. How will your "more clout with the courts rule" play into each of these steps to ensure they will testify?

3. What would the timeframe be for each step and how long would it take to get from the first step to their testimony?

4. Compare it to the processes and time-frames for proceeding outside of impeachment and explain how much faster each step would be if done within an impeachment and the legal basis for the expedited timeframe

And please show your work . . .

I agree. I thought the hearings accomplished exactly what they needed to for the Dems.

There seems a reliance on quick, easily digestible, one-act dramas from far too many, rather than the staid-but-reliable efficiency of what the actual agendas of these hearings are, and what they actually do.

Most of life is really, really boring. Even the important stuff (especially the important stuff). But there's a lot of younger hipsters demanding immediate gratification and instant resolution in all things.

This crap of needing to be entertained every moment like it is a movie or tv program is stupid! This is serious business here!

It's only a matter of democracy hanging in the balance.

i don't watch news anymore.
watching on cspan. i mute the republicans, and check in with DU and twitter for parts i missed.
our country is simply slimed in bullshit. it's too frustrating.

The FBI guys Figliuzzi and Rosenberg had it right. Everybody else was disappointed in the performance. I think the tone was set when Nadler asked the first question and Mueller answered no the president wasn't exonerated. I'm off MSNBC until Rachael comes on tonight. They really disappointed me.

Why the hell is Brian Williams hosting this? He's such a lightweight. Why the hell is Claire McCaskill doing color commentary? She's a nobody, not a member of Congress, and not even a lawyer.

MSNBC really dropped the ball on this. They should have Hillary Clinton on this program, and Eric Holder. Maybe Sally Yates, Malcolm Nance, how about Andrew McCabe? I can think of at least 20 people who would be better at commentary than Claire McCaskill.

The hearings and Mueller are doing great, but MSNBC sucks today. I should be watching CNN like everybody else.

in situations such as these. While she got a lot out in her book, her ongoing involvement and presence in politics and current events such as these would be great for much of the country, but not worth the bile she'd suffer from Trumpsters, and Republicans in general. I know she's been active behind the scenes after some of the more "catastrophic" events in recent years, but I wish she had more of an input in current events. I understand why she doesn't, but I'm afraid we'll have to wait another year for an official Democratic "leader." Once the Democratic field of presidential candidates is whittled down however, I'm sure the remaining candidates will take a tough stand.

Claire McCaskill is a lawyer. From Wikipedia:

McCaskill is a native of Rolla, Missouri. She graduated from the University of Missouri and the University of Missouri School of Law. A member of the Democratic Party, McCaskill served as a member of the Missouri House of Representatives from 1983 to 1989, as Jackson County Prosecutor from 1993 to 1998, and as the 34th State Auditor of Missouri from 1999 to 2007. She ran for Governor of Missouri in the 2004 election, defeating Democratic incumbent Bob Holden in the Democratic primary and losing to Republican Matt Blunt in a close general election.

She sure doesn't sound like a lawyer on TV.

He has it in his contract with MSNBC that he does coverage of special reports. I specifically remember that when they reported NBC demoted him from the Nightly News and for him, going back to MSNBC.

set the expectation that unless there was a dramatic moment it would be a bust for the Democrats. I turned off the commentary as I listened to the hearing up until11:30am.

....declaring that Trump is a traitor and a criminal and should resign immediately because he's on his way to the White House to arrest him right now....

That's not how these things work, even with the clown show this idiot in the WH has started since 2016.

DD

for daughter Arabella's B-day gift - one with a pure Aryan appearance.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0KVcv6h8Rl/

I worry about people who never had pets because their father is a Narcissist when they get one for their kids. They can’t possibly know enough about dogs to know hoe to treat them.

Maybe once the family decides they don’t like caring for pets the dog will have a kindhearted servant care for it.

People have to learn how to treat pets. And there are tons of things to learn.

I have liberal and conservative friends and relatives.

The liberals tend toward thinking it went well overall.

The conservatives are angry that the Republicans appeared to be incompetent (saw that word more than once)...so, not as much of a disaster as the talking heads would lead us to think.

they said the Republicans sounded incompetent. They were shocked at how unhinged they sounded (apparently, they think they are generally fairly reasonable, so I'm not sure when they have been listening).

Big thing I'm seeing is that everyone was watching and even a couple of hardcore Trumpkins were taken aback at how Republicans were treating Mueller.

It is jarring for some of them to see younger men screaming at an old guy, I guess.

That's even more offensive

Once it's shown to be truth.

The totality of both Mueller hearings today, plus the report, is devastating for Dear Leader. The only way for the D's to be vindicated is to impeach, and to the wind with the Senate composition on the vote to convict.

When the reality of how much Trump sold out the US to get where he is today is known, all D's, all independents, all "normal" R's (however few there are, but I think there are more than a few), and a few deplorables to boot will not support Dear Leader. That alone makes it worth it to me to pursue impeachment.

Truth has a way of winning folks over. Nixon was stupid enough to tape. Trump is far more stupid than Nixon, who was an extremely smart person, so I'm sure that there is something out there that will bring a day of reckoning for the allegations against him.

Regardless of the Senate vote, the WORST thing the D's can do is to not start formal impeachment inquiries after the summer recess is over.

And totally agree with your assessment. For anyone who had not read the report prior to the committee hearing this morning, it definitely highlighted the important points that Barr tried to hide from the American public. The criticism I heard was that it wasn't very "inspiring" or wasn't flashy enough. Sorry, but I wasn't expecting Perry Mason. Mueller is not a career actor. He did his job, all the while making sure he did not step over any line that could come back to bite him. I am really enjoying the hearing this afternoon!

It's funny because both sides think the media is for the other party. I guess it depends on what network you watch and who the commentators are talking.

He says anything he doesn't like is fake news.

I say they are ALL over compensating for "liberal media" by skewing to the right from jump.

NBC gave us "The Apprentice"...it was also on MSNBC, CNN regularly uses kGOPb operatives are "regular folk on the panel, and Fox News is straight propaganda.

But no, there is no conflating what they *do* with "both sides do it"

of our media outlets. Since the leaders of these corporations have fiduciary responsibility only for shareholder earnings, it is no surprise that they will twist news, often very cleverly to a) create controversy, even if there is none, because it is good for ratings (profits) and b) C-suite people and billionaires and the rest of the top 1/2% have a very real vested interest in keeping the current level of political corruption just as it is, because they are in the process of transferring massive amounts of public wealth from our treasury to that same 1/2%.

There is all kinds of trolling, and the media is guilty on an ongoing basis of underreporting things that have actual import in favor of things that generate higher ratings, and thus keep advertising profits up.

It's always about money, particularly when we're talking shareholder profits.

TV media just wants ad dollars. Fox is pure propaganda. What US audiences want is drama which means the shows want arguments and good sound bites. That’s why the content sucks.

In addition people have gotten used to processed news which is as nourishing as processed food. As velveteen said above the drama used to be the hearings. Generally speaking people don’t read full articles. If they read at all it’s the watered down processed version that refers back to the original article but don’t have half or more of the details. Or they watch cable news which is about as far as you can get from news.

I don’t have any more respect for 90% of the talking heads on cable news than I have for the people on those pure bullshit shows like the view or good morning america.

But the real problem is how to change that. How do you get Americans to stop favoring drama over content. If we could figure that out everything else would be easy.

I like to read the articles, but many times the most important stories ONLY present a short video.

fuck the country---the Rump is ratings gold!

Congressman 'Owngoal' Buck's question and Mueller's answer.

Buck: "Could you charge the president with a crime after he left office?"

Mueller: "Yes."

We should have billboards up on every highway by next week.

Haberman of NYT's is leading the charge on disaster.

. . . wait a cycle or two. And check out CNN's home page.

Simply airing what’s in the report was the whole point of this and it was successful.

They, the media, HAS to try to throw water on this because the Repubs are all in, totally hitched to one horse.

...very sober way, that something can be important with being entertaining/interesting (no doubt I am paraphrasing a bit.

John Dean and Alexander Butterfield momnts are rare.

He is the driest analyst I think I've seen on cable news.

whenever a stagehand comes by to put a mirror under his nose.

...as "Smilin' Chuck."

He said he could not prove intent on the conspiracy charge because nobody would talk (5th Amendment). And he attributed that to Whitehouse interference. Indeed, the reason for no conspiracy was because of the obstruction.

How likely was it Mueller would suddenly call Trump a crook and say he deserved to be in prison? Zero. How likely was it he'd tell some of the right wing fools making insulting statements to go fuck themselves? Zero. He was calm, professional and probably wishing he'd never gotten involved with any of it.

from where you are watching ?

they claim the same thing. Maybe the media mostly serves its own best interests and sometimes it benefits the Left, sometimes the right, but it always benefits them.

To me, the problem this morning was that Mueller said right off in his opening that the trump campaign did not conspire, coordinate, collude, or whatever you call it.

But, by the end of the day -- primarily with Schiff's excellent chairmanship -- I think the whole thing was turned around. It was clear Russians are still doing same things, are planning to interfere in 2020, and trump is doing absolutely nothing about it because he's compromised.

I doubt more people will scream for Impeachment, but the Hearing hurt trump.

And one witness.

I'd love to have some of his deputies come testify too.

We're jaded because we know all this stuff. (We know far more than was revealed, in fact.) But most people probably have a sort of vague sense that "Trump cheated". Half of them already have decided for other reasons maybe that they wouldn't vote for Trump for all the money in the world.
A third would vote for Trump even if he actually did murder someone on 5th Avenue on camera.

But the other 15% or so... they probably didn't watch the hearings, but they'll see the news and read the headlines, and they'll get, "Trump was NOT exonerated." "Russia cheated to help Trump." "Russia is still interfering." "Trump refused to help." "Manafort, Flynn, Cohen, Papadopoulus, lied under oath."

"FBI investigating Trump campaign in counter=intelligence inquiry."
"Mueller warns that Russia will do it again."

That's what the 15% who don't already hate Trump (or salivate to his every drool) are going to see and hear. They're going to be concerned... wonder why the Democrats aren't doing something... and then, oh, here's a hearing. Oh, here's a court saying Trump has to release his tax returns.

It might actually take until close to the election, but for my take, that's not a bad thing. It will mean the Republicans won't have a chance to replace Trump with Pence at the top of the ticket.

And it means we'll all be treated to ANOTHER ENTIRE YEAR of Trump melting down and getting more and more demented.

I hope he doesn't end up taking us to war, but that's beyond anyone's control at this point. The best we can hope for is that he constantly threatens and then loses focus and gets mad at CNN instead of Iran for a week.

But the 15% coming home to watch the news now, the ones who aren't decided yet, who don't pay that much attention but do vote... they'll hear this: Russia is doing it again, and Trump wants them too.

Listening to the media bobble-heads today, I think many of them should stay away from politics, and restrict themselves to reviewing episodes of The Kardashians.

my comeback would be, "Where did you hear that? From one of those fake news programs?"

i watched both hearings today ...i saw a man who carefully answered questions..given the threat issued by barr.
it disgusts me to hear that a president of the united states in my opinion is a traitor to the country that he swore a oath to protect.

Even I didn't watch it - too long and boring.

So they didn't hear the immediate commentary either.

MSNBC with Ari Melber and others played a great compilation of clips showing Mueller answering all the questions necessary to prove obstruction by Trump and strongly suggesting collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians which was seen as unpatriotic if nothing else.

These are great sound bytes and clips which, if played enough, will break through any doubts some American might have about whether or not Trump is not only guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors but also a slimeball of the first order and his Republican defenders little more than sold out toadies.

This was a good day which will bear fruit and be more useful as time goes on.

100 percent

For that to happen, DFT would require a conscience. Nobody else in the GOP does either.

fail to normalize/protect Trump, whom they alway refer to in a deeply respectful tone of voice as The President. Maddow and O'Donnell produced their customary sound analyses. Ari Melber got lost in a sea of his own legal jargon and sheer vanity, yet again.

Rachel Maddow and Lawrence O'Donnell! And after watching their anlayses, me, as well.

I don't know if I'm a blinking idiot, or if there was some voodoo splicing, but the pieces they pulled out were so damning...

and has already moved on.
The Mueller hearings were a disaster for Trump and his allies on the committees who continued to try to sell their assortment of conspiracies, distortions, and lies about what is in the report.
I think that, as the election gets closer, the Trump allies will begin to run for their jobs and their then lies will be about what they did to protect us from Putin and his puppet. Lindsey Graham will again try to sell himself as a patriot and claim that he stood up to Trump.