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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI am Catholic and this is quite disturbing to me!
Some US Bishops deems President Biden as a fake Catholic.
I am lost for words. I dont know what or how to feel. The credulous way President Biden is being treated is beyond any scope of what I was taught as a Catholic.
It make me furious that they say Biden is fake, yet they bow to the belief that Trump is the savior.
This is embarrassing to me as a Catholic. My religious views are mine and should be same for anyone else. To call President Biden out, because he doesnt have their beliefs is astonishing to say the least.
I was raised to hold my faith to the highest regards, but to hear this story makes me wonder where these Bishops are in their faith. I will not judge them, but I hold heartily disagree with them 100%.
Story from MSM.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)is really demented IMO.
Tetrachloride
(8,490 posts)definitely an embarrassment
moniss
(6,199 posts)how the bishops etc. crapped all over Jim Groppi when he was a priest leading open housing marches in Milwaukee. All the while they themselves were shuffling their "problems" from parish to parish. I grew up non-denominational around a lot of Catholics and I understand the basics and the good intentions of the average parishioner. But the leadership I have always felt was overly dogmatic, corrupt in many ways and knowingly doing things that would cause harm to their parishioners.
DENVERPOPS
(10,214 posts)I remember when JFK ran for president, the republicans were livid.....saying can we trust a Catholic in the white house.....
moniss
(6,199 posts)at the time and I can easily remember all of that crap. Heck I remember Ike. I remember when all TV screens were rather small and the set got hot. I remember the service men and women coming home from Korea and our strong presence in Germany. I remember the Mother's March of Dimes and how every year awful toll polio took on kids. I remember when car doors slammed shut with a good tight feel and sound. I remember doo-wop and a time before the Beatles. I remember party line phones. Most of all I remember how differently people treated each other. We might have thought the guy next door was a skunk but we kept that to ourselves mostly. Where I came from it was considered to be rude to call people out like that publicly. No need to. Everybody could figure it out and they likely wouldn't change if you did.
Thanks for stirring my old memories.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)remember that everyone just shut up.
We had problems back then, big problems, but after that war, we were seeing a way forward. My father was never comfortable with Jews and others, but he had to shut up and admit prejudices were basically stupid when we found ourselves living in a neighborhood with so many NAZI death camp tattoos, and after he had spent years killing real nazis and closing those camps.
But, we are human and by definition just never learn.
DENVERPOPS
(10,214 posts)kskiska
(27,117 posts)They said he'd be taking his marching orders from the Pope.
debm55
(39,121 posts)elleng
(137,014 posts)Deuxcents
(20,245 posts)I had religious institutions drilled into me. The turning point came more personally than your experience but there is a turning point. Our creator, however we perceive, gave us a very wonderful gift..a conscience. Follow your heart.. dont worry about what others think you should think.
debm55
(39,121 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 5, 2023, 10:07 PM - Edit history (1)
life fulfilled with my work with teaching children.and my family
PoindexterOglethorpe
(26,895 posts)in a Catholic school.
By the time I was five or so I had deep questions about Catholicism, religion in general. I was far too young to express those questions coherently, but those questions were there.
In high school I had weekly fights with my mother about going to mass. Once I left home at age 17, I never went to mass again.
My closest friend in the world, a man I have now known for 50 years, is a practicing Catholic. We often have conversations on the topic of religion. He understands why abortion should be legal. He understands that the Pope might possibly be somewhat out of touch. Our conversations certainly enlighten me, and probably do enlighten him also.
That said, I tend to see all organized religion as toxic. Religions always say, "We are right, this is the truth, don't seek anything else." That makes me crazy. I firmly believe that thinking about stuff, looking closely at details, circumstances, who why what where and when, is crucial. Too many people don't ask essential questions.
Back to President Biden. He considers himself a Catholic. The bishops need to go fuck themselves. These are the same men who continue to claim they can tell women what to do, and hide pedophilia. Need I say more?
Deuxcents
(20,245 posts)Thats not to say I dont hear instruction in my mind every so often.. but..nope.., Im done w/ organized religion. Im thankful for a most precious gift..my brain. I intend to use it for good.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(26,895 posts)I will agree with survived.
Yes, do use your brain for good.
onetexan
(13,913 posts)I no longer identify as catholic & have the same view of organized religions.
calimary
(84,712 posts)By the time I was in high school, like the elementary school - all-girl Catholic. Sorry. You just start wondering. And doubting. And looking for other input, more objective input and facts. I, too, stopped going to Mass at about the age you did. For me, the most bothersome thing was how women were held to a subservient role - even as women became more - well - "liberated," as it was described back then. In Roman Catholicism, women were nothing but carriers, brood mares, and an endless supply of donations to support the missions, the Holy Childhood, the school raffles, GOOD GRIEF they shook us down on a DAILY basis!!! I STILL don't see that cavalier attitude toward women evolving into something that even remotely reflects the changing times, lo these many decades later.
I AM NOT a second-class citizen. And I NEVER HAVE BEEN a second-class citizen. And I NEVER WILL BE a second-class citizen.
ProfessorGAC
(70,804 posts)...grades 1 through my bachelor's degree.
I was an altar boy at the cathedral school & I quit believing that stuff in 5th or 6th grade.
After grade school, I told my parents I had gone to church enough for a lifetime. Other than a few weddings (ours & a couple I was a groomsman), my parents' and my in-laws' funerals I haven't been to church.
But, I wouldn't say I survived catholic school. I just pretty much ignored that part of it, so there wasn't anything to survive for me.
phylny
(8,612 posts)I don't pray to Mary.
I don't believe the Pope is infallible.
I don't believe birth control is a sin.
FakeNoose
(36,066 posts)Bishops and priests who tell us how to vote.
Politicians who tell us how to worship.
DENVERPOPS
(10,214 posts)regnaD kciN
(26,657 posts)They both were convinced that the U.S. church was dangerously liberal, and spent 30+ years packing dioceses with ultra-conservative bishops as surely as Republicans did the Supreme Court, with similar results.
Itll take decades to undo the damage, and there may not be many Roman Catholics left by that time.
ShazzieB
(18,989 posts)30+ years of packing dioceses with ultra-conservative bishop i explains a lot! I was not at all aware of that, but it fits right in with what I know of them both.
I was raised protestant in an overwhelmingly protestant part of the country, but have spent the majority of my adult life in the heavily Catholic Chicago area, married to a man with Catholic parents. (After baptizing him in the Catholic Church, they gave him absolutely no Catholic religious training, for some reason; so we were always the 2 non-Catholic weirdos at family gatherings. )
In all these years, I've learned a lot about the Catholic Church, but some aspects of it will probably always be puzzling to me. This (bishops arbitrarily deciding that a guy who is obviously a practicing Catholic is not one) makes no sense to me at all.
keep_left
(2,548 posts)...a lot of other knock-on effects. As the favored ultraconservatives began getting the big promotions, many went along with the new party line whether they agreed or not. The reactionary turn in the Church attracted billionaire money from people like Tom Monaghan, and these two trends reinforced each other. Pretty soon we had reactionary publishers, media networks like the execrable EWTN, and phony radtrad "colleges" for neurotic parents who wanted to silo their kids off from "modernity" (Christendom College, Franciscan University, etc.).
A good illustration of just how much times have changed is to look at the activities of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) over the years. In the mid-1980s, the USCCB released pastoral letters on topics such as the arms race and economic justice. By 2011, the USCCB was attacking same-sex marriage with slick, Hollywood-style videos like Marriage: Unique For A Reason, which can charitably be described as patronizing (at best). The reactionary archbishop of the Twin Cities at the time (John Nienstedt) organized a mass mailing of more than 400,000 DVDs to Minnesotans before Election Day 2010, calling for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. (It failed).
https://sojo.net/magazine/march-2019/rise-catholic-right
https://www.startribune.com/catholics-to-get-dvds-opposing-gay-marriage/103494984/
electric_blue68
(18,964 posts)much attention to that.
Don't remember much at least not w/o going back to news articles etc about JPII.
"Bennie", otoh... Nnnooo thanks!
DenaliDemocrat
(1,559 posts)I support them!
Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 5, 2023, 01:03 AM - Edit history (1)
Its a woman-hating, oppressive institution whose main purpose is to further the patriarchy (notice how women are kept out of power and both of its major supernatural beings/deities are said to be male?) and to enrich the Vatican poohbahs, who are sitting on billions. Please consider walking away.
RockRaven
(16,576 posts)I grew up Catholic, big Catholic family, Catholic schools. I was never mistreated by any of the clergy (though as an adult I later found out that others in my parish were).
But I never admired or heard anything about bishops and cardinals which recommended them to me. The idea of being disturbed or disappointed or disillusioned or surprised or the like by their behavior is totally foreign to me. I've never known them as something other than toxic and/or deserving of a critical eye.
czarjak
(12,548 posts)arthritisR_US
(7,656 posts)markodochartaigh
(2,221 posts)burning crosses on lawns etc. There was even a priest in Florida who was tortured. And if the authoritarians in the US win I bet that there will be another split between the Catholics and the evangelicals.
Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)old as dirt
(1,972 posts)It was a Black woman, Emma Simms, who stood up to the KKK and Fact Checked them.
snip-------
The Klan Moves Into Iowa
The Klan gained strength after the First World War, drawing from white Protestants in small towns and cities. The beginning of a serious movement came in 1920 when a paid recruiter was hired. The Klan appealed to people who believed their beliefs were superior to the beliefs of immigrants, Catholics, Jews or colored people. The Klan supported what they called clean living and attacked dope, bootlegging, graft, night clubs and road houses, violation of the Sabbath, unfair business dealings, sex, marital 'goings-on,' and scandalous behavior."
Although the Klan had started in the South, it began to gain strength in the Midwest. There were many followers in Iowain Davenport, Sioux City, Waterloo, Ottumwa and Des Moines, among bigger cities. But it had followers in smaller communities tooCenterville, Manly, Cherokee and Red Oak. Several groups opposed the Klan, including the newly formed American Legion, Masons and the Farm Bureau, as well as the NAACP.
In their ceremonial and public occasions, Klan members wore white sheets with peaked hoods. They took on fantastic titles, such as Imperial Wizard, Imperial Kleagle (chief of staff), Grand Goblin (sales manager) and Grand Dragon. They had special names for membership fees (Klectoken). A particular sign of their presence in a community was a burning cross, which they would set up and light in the front yards of those they wanted to frighten.
The Klans peak year was in 1924, when they influenced many elections across the country, including an Iowa race for the United States Senate. The Klan helped the campaigns of many school board members, succeeding in electing representatives of their point of view, but in 1926 many of them were voted out.
There were many other ways that the Klan upset people. One was to stride silently in uniform into a church, and deposit money at the altar. One black congregation in Centerville, a coal-mining town in southeastern Iowa, received $100 this way. Many of the churchs members thought that the Klan was their friend after that.
Friend or Enemy?
But one woman, Emma Simms, didnt think so. Emma wrote to the national office of the NAACP about her concerns. Robert Bagnall, an NAACP official, wrote back to her explaining that the Klan tried to gain favor with some groups, in order to separate them from their allies. Specifically, in Centerville, they tried to separate the blacks and the Jews. They planned to isolate first the Jews and later deal with the blacks. So Emma had a letter she could take and read to people who had been fooled by the gift from the Klan.
In Sioux City in northwest Iowa, some white officials proposed constructing a cemetery solely for colored people. A newspaper editor, J.N. Boyd, wrote to Robert Bagnall at the NAACP, complaining about this proposal. Robert wrote back to him suggesting that the Klan was behind the proposal. He said the black community should protest loudly.
In Des Moines the Klan gained support from some white Protestants in neighborhoods near Italian Catholic and black communities. These Klan supporters feared the cultural and ethnic differences of their new Catholic and black neighbors. The NAACP and Council of Churches joined forces to create Interracial Council in 1924. The council tried to end discrimination in a number of ways, from swimming pools to schools. Some historians think this may have been in response to the activities the Klan was carrying out.
In the little town of Manly in north central Iowa where blacks and Catholics had come to work on the railroads in the years before World War I, the Klan tried to intimidate both groups. Others in the town fought back, ridiculing the Klan. After many years there were strong signs of racial harmony. An example was in 1951 when a black homecoming king and queen, Leroy Dunn and Delores Dunn, were crowned at the high school.
snip--------
https://www.iowapbs.org/iowapathways/mypath/2587/story-ku-klux-klan-america-and-iowa
Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)Women have always been kept out of all power within the church -- only good to do the dirty work. The Vatican is a grifting club for a few select men -- always has been. They use the framing of their patriarchal mythology as a weapon to keep women down and males elevated. In their stupid stories, the omnipotent sky wizard creator and ruler of the universe is male and so is his "child" -- the savior of humanity. What a steaming pantload! Throughout RCC history, women have not seen as human, only vessels. Don't believe me? Look at what the fucking Opus Dei loons on SCOTUS just did to women's autonomy. Read about the Magdalene laundries. The examples are endless.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)Last time people like you pulled this shit, there was a horrendous ethnic cleansing not just here in Iowa, but all over the Midwest.
I don't think that you understand why my wife is afraid of people like you.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)Science and rational thought are not "religion." They rely on evidence, unlike supernatural beliefs.
Jeezus, why are you going on about "superiority"? You seem incapable of acknowledging that the Catholic Church has brutalized women for centuries. Or maybe women just aren't worthy of your concern.
tiredtoo
(2,949 posts)summer_in_TX
(3,320 posts)The abuse of religion, the abuse of power, the abuse of wealth. A hydra head but really one thing. And THAT is the root of all evil.
Power can be positive, bringing light, life, creation, healing, reconciliation, deep satisfaction and joy. Or in the hands of someone or groups using it for selfish purposes, it becomes toxic, destructive, sucking light and joy out of life.
Religious faith fueled Martin Luther King's work for justice and gave him the strength to persist even in the face of physical attacks and death threats. His power was not in service of himself but to fight injustice with his people to lift them all up. Not just them but all humanity, to break the bonds of oppression on both the victims of oppression but those who were passive participants in the oppression by virtue of the color of our skin in a system that supported white supremacy.
Religious faith enabled Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu to stand up to persecution in South Africa and ultimately oversee the peaceful end of apartheid. That there was no bloodbath is an absolute miracle, and the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Project is a model of how to bring an end to a cycle of violence that doesn't trigger further cycles of violence. Their power was likewise used on behalf of good, not evil.
Religious faith led ordinary people to do things like build hospitals, homes for orphans and outcasts, and tend them with loving care.
Open your eyes to see that it is not religion per se, but the abuse of it. The abuse of any form of power renders it toxic, destructive, evil.
It's tiresome for those of us who despise the abuse of religion and the perversion of power over people of faith for personal gain, but who also find that our faith brings us joy, fulfillment, enables us to do things that benefit our communities that we would have never been able to do without our faith. Respect us too. Do not lump us in with those you condemn. We are not the same.
wnylib
(24,905 posts)electric_blue68
(18,964 posts)Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)summer_in_TX
(3,320 posts)Last thing I ever expected to be is a Christian. I despised what I thought was narrow-minded, cold-hearted judgementalism and couldn't conceive that that was the dark distortion only, from the abusers of power, who sought to control and profit.
There's a lot of money and power to gather by those who want to do that. But they can do that from all kinds of platforms, not just religion. Fame, beauty, politics, celebrity, music, propaganda, movie, entertainment, and sports, oratory all can be turned into platforms for power, control, and profit.
While religion is extremely vulnerable to misuse and abuse and it is constantly being distorted and corrupted by many even now, that's not the sole story.
So many have been motivated by love, a desire for justice, the conviction that we are all brothers and sisters no fear, no desire to exploit others or grift, nothing self-serving. And that's a trait of religion that is not being misused or abused, any of the great world religions. Like oratory can be used to inspire and uplift of demonize and tear down, the creative arts can do the same, or they can be perverted into a tool for spreading distrust, anger, fear, self-loathing, and self-destructive behaviors. We all know what political abuses occur, but politics can also be used to protect our peoples and our public lands, educate, rebuild, extend liberties, ensure opportunities, and much more. We've seen people who've used their beauty and fame for good as well.
Martin Luther King Jr. was one who risked and ultimately lost his life to work for justice, civil rights, and economic opportunities. He was empowered by his faith in God who the scriptures taught him had a passion for justice and for the poor. Not by fear, but by love.
So many more people of faith would not recognize the idea that fear or ignorance were behind why we believe and why we are then empowered to go out and do for others from love and the courage to believe in the positive power to effect change.
I myself started the journey as many of us do, from failure. But I was very antagonistic to religion. But I met warmth, acceptance, and love in visiting a church my husband was singing in one Sunday, and found no trace of the spiritual arrogance I expected or any attempt to convert me. But I was very resistant, until watching the PBS discussions between Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyer on the Power of Myth. Campbell said that all myths have in common that they are tackling mystery that is beyond human ability to put into words. Yet all of them have elements of truth that are a real reflection of that cosmic mystery. I wrestled with that idea for awhile and began to figure out what were the true parts. Love, doing for others, mercy, forgiveness, acceptance, humility, tenderheartedness, joy, authenticity, getting oneself out of the way.
It's fine to believe differently. I don't believe my beliefs are superior, but for me they've brought great meaning and joy as I'm sure other religious beliefs have brought for others. Our beliefs are positive, good for others, inclusive, seeing the divine in all Creation, not manipulating others, not seeking power for ourselves, seeking to do justice, love mercy, and resist evil. We recognize and wrestle with the temptations to get sidetracked by pride, anger, and other attitudes and behaviors, then are motivated to use tools to restore relationships when we have harmed them. We repent when we hurt others, ourselves, our Higher Power. We're imperfectly human, doing our best, and continuing to work toward doing better. Our faith should not be denigrated, it should be elevated in contrast to the distorted, misbegotten, manipulative, controlling use of fear and ignorance to grift.
Telling the counterfeit from the true is a skill that can only be learned by studying the true. Bank tellers don't study counterfeit bills, they study the genuine ones. Likewise, those being misled by the power-hungry would do very well to find those whose faith is genuine, selfless, loving, and accepting.
Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)It's just flat-out fictional patriarchal bullshit. The character "God" (who is demonstrably cruel and murderous) was made up by humans and is depicted as male. Same goes for his his only child, the "savior" of mankind (emphasis on the "man" part of that word). Of course no females have magical supernatural powers, just males. (Most religions that revered females and fertility and nature were stomped out by the male-dominated monotheisms.) Over the centuries, this ridiculous construct has caused harm to women that is incalculable. It's also been highly destructive to rational and scientific belief, and the entire planet is paying the price for that.
We are just relatively recently evolved hairless primates on one planet among trillions. There are undoubtedly m/billions of other planets that have different kinds of life forms, some of them "advanced." We're not special. We live, and then we die. And that's it. While we're alive, it makes a lot of sense for us to cooperate as humans on this one little planet in a 14-billion-year-old universe because that's how we evolved. We're social animals who live in groups. We need to work together to survive and thrive. You can do good things and get human connection without buying into and empowering the mythological, anti-women church nonsense. Come on, you don't really think a magical carpenter from 2,000 years ago is returning to Earth any day now, do you? I think you're more intelligent than that, and deep down you know that's just a story on par with tales of Zeus and Thor and Isis.
summer_in_TX
(3,320 posts)Joseph Campbell found that the world religious myths all express truth about a mystery that cannot be put into words. I have studied just enough Judaism to know how profound the truths it holds is, and I feel certain that is true of the other world religions. But I happened happened to stumble into a Christian church, one that was the opposite of my preconceptions. I was befriended, accepted, included, not pressured in any way whatsoever. They trusted my intelligence and, though no one said so, the work of the Holy Spirit. These days I hold both a fairly literal and non-literal understanding of Christianity. That may seem paradoxical to you, but there is truth that has been enormously rewarding to me.
There's plenty of genuine evidence for the person of Jesus. The Case for Christ is a good resource. A journalist who was an atheist did everything he could to discredit that evidence. It's quite a good story.
I was in my mid-thirties, dealing with sadness that I was unsuccessful in my chosen career as a teacher, trying to figure out what I should be doing instead to help support our family and to be of use in the world. I was ready to repel any attempt to convert me, but none ever came. So eventually I relaxed and started exploring. I had conversations, studied, pitched in, went on a cursillo (a short course on Christianity for the heart and mind that combines fun, worship, prayer), learned practices that helped me grow. The truths and accepting self-forgiveness has transformed me from the once introverted person who carried a lot of guilt for not being perfect, letting people down, doing selfish, inconsiderate, lazy things now and then. Once I gained a sense of purpose for my life, the shyness was no longer an impediment, and I worked to be Christ's hands and feet to the best of my (limited) ability.
The adventure of taking that leap of faith has enriched my life. I've been inspired to step up and out and do things no one would have ever thought I could do, especially me. No background in many of the things involved (fundraising, nonprofits, business, radio). That could have tempted me to think I deserved the whale's share of the credit (even though I knew I lacked so much background knowledge and experience). I had to do a lot of work to make sure that didn't happen, including making sure to avoid founder's syndrome and stepping back repeatedly, not telling people of the role I played. Pride would have been a toxin, for the venture and for me. Besides, I didn't have the background skills or experience to do more than get it started. My main role is done other than to keep the vision so that it serves the community and never gets derailed from that. Plus holding the institutional knowledge. I got the joy of that adventure and seeing God do something big that I got to help with.
BTW, there's more consistency in the Bible than I'd been aware of and God has a clear passion for justice and for uplifting the poor, healing the sick, and so forth. The right wing evangelicals have so very much wrong. But there are clearly very difficult to understand parts that are not good. I don't claim to understand those, although between translating from ancient languages and the limited paradigms of the writers, I doubt they understood correctly.
Dr. Strange
(26,007 posts)I think government has been the root of an awful lot of evil too.
hoosierspud
(177 posts)and went to Catholic school grades 1-5. At that time, Father Hesburgh was on President Kennedy's Civil Rights Commission and a lot of Catholic clergy and lay people were on board and pretty liberal. But as stated in an earlier comment, liberal priests and bishops were replaced by conservative ones.
I started having issues with the church's position on birth control and women's rights and was in and out of the church several times. The child sexual abuse scandal and the response of hunting down gay seminarians was the last straw.
Some of my friends invited me to come to church with them at our local United Methodist Church and it clicked with me. The services feel very familiar and comfortable. I love the emphasis on service and leaving the world a better place than you found it. The Pacific Northwest conference is quite liberal. The issue of gay rights within the church is sad because of so many disagreements and leading to a split within the church but unlike the Catholic church, at least they are dealing with the issue.
moniss
(6,199 posts)in the late '60's when a young priest came to help a priest who was very old and beginning to fail. He would hear confessions and conduct some masses. That was cool for about a month but I'll never forget the parishioners getting completely up in arms because the young priest brought his acoustic guitar to one service and played during a hymn while he sang. They immediately called the office of the Archbishop and had him yanked.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)labeling those who hold different beliefs as heretics, waging thousands of years of wars, torture, slavery, murder. Not just against Moslems, pagans, masons, and Jews, but against other types of Christians as in Catholic vs Protestant.
But the actual teachings of Jesus about compassion, loving kindness, forgiveness, practicing peace and tolerance, eh --- well not so much.
Hekate
(95,456 posts)
Democratic politicians who are Roman Catholic. Why? Beats me. They remain utterly silent about the ultra-right Supremes who are Catholic. They remain silent on the Evangelicals. They remain silent regarding Trump and any other Republican.
As near as I can figure out, they feel entitled to speak out because they see Catholic politicians as belonging to them. But why pick on good and devout men like Joe Biden? What is it about Democrats that gets them going? Is it because Democrats wont lie and tell them what they want to hear?
I cant figure it out, and as you can see I have tried. But what Ive observed from previous go-rounds is that the conservative bishops in the US are out of step with the current Pope and with American Catholics. Pews are emptying across the US, and have been for several decades, and all they want is for the SCOTUS to deliver a theocracy to them. Bah!
Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)
Dum Aloo This message was self-deleted by its author.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)UTUSN
(72,794 posts)But have resented the Anti-Choicers since the '70s. My nuclear family was totally devout and also totally Dem. My lone surviving elder sister has been going to daily Mass all her adult life, and one of her close church friends told her she is going to Hell because of Choice.
Going to a bigger picture, I held on to my image of Pius XII as what a pope should be like and ignored the allegations of "Hitler's pope". There are more documents and books. Just saw a couple of YouTubes that are damning, that he was deeply anti-Semitic and kept direct, back channel communication with the Nazis throughout. Then after the war the church ran a network getting big Nazis with Church passports and new identities to places like Argentina.
Yeah there are extenuating factors, like Canada taking 6K nazis and the US building the Space program with them. And in 1939 Pius was not alone in fearing Hitler might win and in strategizing to cope with the possibility.
But am getting more judging.
PlutosHeart
(1,445 posts)when in fact they appear to have adopted Evangelical views and actions. None of these are sanctioned by the current Pope.
I am not religious but I did grow up Roman Catholic and attended Private Catholic Schools my whole life.
These are political jerks that are even going as far as expanding some of their Churches into what appears to be Mega Churches. Ignore them or defend Biden.
Their goal is to trash the current Pope, the Catholic Church (which they call the devil) and to turn people basically into Evangelicals. Total scammers.
I hope people will be able to see this is their goal.
Response to PlutosHeart (Reply #22)
debm55 This message was self-deleted by its author.
aggiesal
(9,555 posts)Pope John Paul II was considered very charismatic, he was extremely conservatives and stated appointing very conservative Cardinals.
Those Cardinals are appointing very conservative Bishops, and now those conservative Bishops are now working their way into Cardinal positions.
Even after Pope Francis I said about Biden not receiving communion, Be a pastor, dont go condemnin.. And Communion is not a prize for the perfect, ....
Honestly these conservative Bishops prefer the anti-Christ Pendejo45 over Biden.
DFW
(56,934 posts)samplegirl
(12,191 posts)Catholic schools. But todays Catholics are a whole new dimension of why people just leave the church.
PlanetBev
(4,233 posts)Joe Biden is a man who has outlived two of his children and yet never lost his faith.
Stephen Colbert lost his father and two of his brothers in a plane crash in 1974. He is a liberal and a practicing catholic.
Fuck anyone who would judge these good men.
electric_blue68
(18,964 posts)Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)when the psychotic asshole omnipotent sky wizard kills your family members (or at least doesnt lift a finger to prevent their deaths) and you continue to worship the monstrous, cruel POS deity.
But I guess all the child death and all the anguish that entails is all just a part of Yahwehs Great and Glorious Plan that were not privy to because
reasons.
Im glad magical beings dont actually exist.
Mopar151
(10,194 posts)Some ghosts here to see you. Satan's pissed about it, wants to see you in the office...
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)orleans
(35,341 posts)those bishops are only human; don't for a second think they don't let politics fuck their brain and influence what spews out of their mouths
fuck them.
such assholes. they covered up child sex abuse, they allowed it to continue -- they certainly are nothing near holier than thou especially in light of the fact that they chose sacrificing children to pleasure themselves.
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)And tell others to leave too. The Catholic Church in America is FUBAR
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)And tell others to leave too.
Let's not take the side of the bullies.
imanamerican63
(14,446 posts)I am not leaving the Catholic faith, just because of the bishops comments. My faith is based on what I believe & I think that is precisely what the President thinks.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)This is a problem for Black folks as well, including my wife's culture.
I'm an atheist myself, but that doesn't make me anti-Catholic.
Historically, my wife's culture has had much the same problem that President Biden is suffering from today.
Afro-Colombians - Religion and Expressive Culture
https://www.everyculture.com/South-America/Afro-Colombians-Religion-and-Expressive-Culture.html
Black people in Colombia are Catholics. As among many people in Latin America, they tend to practice a "popular Catholicism" that the clergy considers more or less unorthodox. In the past and still in the 1990s, the clergy tended to disapprove of practices in Black regions, but with the emergence of a stronger Black identity, some priests are willing to include "traditional" elements in church ceremonies.
In the Pacific region, the presence of the church was rather weak, and many religious rites are practiced outside the direct control of the clergy. There are festivals to venerate a saint or the Virgin Mary, an image of whom is processed through a settlement and often down a riverin a town such as Quibdó, capital of the department of Chocó, the Fiestas de San Pacho (Saint Francis of Assisi) have the aspect of a carnival as different barrios compete to present the best procession and float over twelve days. Velorios, or wakes to propitiate a saint, are usually sponsored by a specific person who provides drink, tobacco, and food. There are also wakes to commemorate the death of a person. Music is a vital element in these rites, with cantadoras (female singers), who may also take role of rezanderas (prayer sayers). Aguardiente (rum) is commonly taken by the participants to combat the coldness of the deceased; beyond the immediate circle of the corpse, where respect is shown, people play dominoes, drink rum, and tell stories and jokes. At the velorio of a child (whose soul is considered to go directly to heaven, a cause for rejoicing), there may be some merriment and perhaps games that may have sexual overtones.
Less research has been conducted in the Caribbean coastal region but one study shows extensive similarities between this region and the Pacific coast, although perhaps greater attention is accorded to spirits than to saints. In Palenque de San Basilio, the cabildo lumbalú consists of elders who officiate at velorios with drumming, singing, and dancing to help the deceased's departure. Spirits of the deceased are called upon to aid the living and must therefore be propitiated and managed carefully through ritual means, for example during the velorio, when many precautions are taken to prevent the spirit's return or anger. Ritual specialists, often women, are accorded prestige and respect. Some observers interpret the interest shown in spirits and saints as in some measure related to African religious concerns with ancestral spirits and the propitiation of deities. It is hard to discount some African influences, but velorios and a concern with spirits and saints are also widespread in non-Black areas.
Work in the Cauca region has focused on elements that are in fact common in other Black (and indeed non-Black) regions: the use of magic and sorcery to attack one's enemies, bring good fortune, influence one's sexual partners, and defend oneself against the machinations of others. Sorcery is often used where envidia, envy, is rife and this in turn may be the result of perceived transgressions against norms of reciprocity, which occur when a person enjoys some material success and is thought to forget his or her obligations as a friend or relative. In this area, too, the pact made with the devil to increase a worker's output and wages has been documented. The gains achieved are fruitless, howeverthey cannot be usefully invested and must be spent on consumables; the worker will also gradually waste away. In the northern Cauca region, Black people also celebrate various festivals, including the Adoration of the Child.
There is very little information available on medical practices among Black Colombians. In general terms, as among many peoples all over Latin America, health is considered to be a balance between "hot" and "cold" forces and elements that affect the body: the cold of a corpse can be threatening, for example, and is combated by the heat of rum. Also, health and welfare are affected by the machinations of others through sorcery, and recourse can be made to healers to defend against these threats, whether to person or property. In the Pacific region, Indian shamans (called jaibanas in the department of Chocó) are considered the most powerful healers: they and their patients may use pildé, a relative of the hallucinogenic Banisteriopsis caapi vine (ayahuasca), to induce visions. In the Chocó, Black curers are called raicilleros (raicilla means "rootlet" but also refers to the ipecac root); they diagnose illness by examining urine samples. When they are given a sign that healing is their vocation, raicilleros begin a seven-year training with various teachers. Less specialized healers are called yerbateros (herbalists).
Music in Black regions of Colombia is varied and rich. In the department of Chocó, the chirimía bandbased on clarinets, drums, and cymbalsplays versions of European-derived dances (e.g., mazurka, polka); there are also alabaos (religious songs), romances (ballads), and décimas (ten-line stanzas). Further south in the Pacific region, currulao, played with marimba, drums, and voices, is a central genre generally thought to have a more African derivation. In the northern Cauca region, fugas (fugues) and coplas (rhyming couplets) are European-derived forms that are widely played and sung among Black people.
In the Caribbean coast region, there is a huge variety of styles, including the cumbia, which exists in both folkloric and commercialized forms. Music there is often held to be of triethnic origin, but the major inputs have come from European and African traditions in a complex cultural interchange. During the twentieth century, genres from this region have become commercialized, often crossing over with Afro-Cuban styles, and have become popular nationwide and abroad under the generic umbrella of cumbia. An accordion-based style, vallenato, which interprets what were once traditional Caribbean Colombian airs, has also become nationally commercialized and is especially popular among Black people in other regions of the country. All over Colombia, but especially popular in Black regions, is found salsa, a genre based on Afro-Cuban and other Caribbean styles, which became commercialized in New York in the 1960s and spread over the entire Latin American region.
Afro-Hispanic Pacific Lowlanders of Ecuador and Colombia - Religion and Expressive Culture
Religious Beliefs. From the time of the founding of the first palenques in the interior of Colombia and Ecuador in the mid-sixteenth century, the Black runaways, or self-liberated people (Cimarrones) have regarded themselves as true Christians. This religious underpinning has often been in contrast with the Spanish, colonial, and, later, national priests, friars, and curates from Europe, Colombia, and Ecuador, who sought to "stamp out" Black beliefs and practices, taken to be "pagan" and "African." The cosmology of Afro-Hispanic culture is highly syncretic, with dynamic aspects of Catholicism and African religions fused into transformable systems of belief that vary from subregion to subregion. Other worlds exist on the sea and under, over, and beyond the sea; the sea itself is a universe of spirits as well as a domain for fishing, traveling, and shipping. Fear creatures, called visiones (visions), are said to be encountered in all environments and niches. Principal among them in most places is the Tunda, a spiritual body snatcher who is driven away by the sound of a base drum or a shotgun, and Riviel, an especially dangerous ghostghoul who must be deposed by a shotgun or rifle. Other fear creatures specific to localities include "the widow" (a masked flying witch), "the headless man," and "the living dead." This earth contains multiple entrances and exits to other worlds, including the site of a shrine to a saint, the locus of a funeral ritual for a child or an adult, and the cemetery. Heaven and purgatory seem to exist "below" the sky; saints, spirits, virgins, and souls of the dead come there, and souls of the dead depart from the earth to go there. Hell is set aside from purgatory and heaven; it is the locus of the devil, demons, and the souls and spirits of dead people who expired while "hot" (see "Conflict" .
The cosmology of Afro-Hispanic culture, especially in the southern sector of the region, is divided into two halvesthe divino and the humano. The former is the domain of the virgins and saints (of colloquial Afro-Hispanic Catholicism), and the latter is the domain of the devil and all of the spirits and dangerous souls that can be appropriated to the devil's domain. The domain of the divino is a plane of existence populated by a number of saints, including the Virgen del Carmen, San Antonio, Santa Rosa, El Niño Dios, and La Mano Poderoso. Many people have shrines in their houses on which they light votive candles to the saints who protect them from diseases and other misfortunes. The domain of the humano, overseen by the Christian devil, is the other plane of existence, populated by obscure figures such as the Anima Sola (soul by itself, lone soul) or El Mismísimo (the Devil himself).
Religious Practioners. Curanderas (female healers) and brujos (male sorcerers) are the active agents who draw from the domains of the divino and the humano. Curanderas have special relationships with some saints and many of them are "representatives" for particular saints. Curanderas use the power of the saints and virgins during their curing rituals. Curanderas heal illnesses such as evil eye, evil air, and magical fright. To cure patients of these afflictions, they recite secret prayers, light candles to the saints and virgins, and use herbs the names of which invoke the powers of important figures of the divino. Brujos are said to use the power of the devil and some admit to actually doing so, at times. They know secret spells in which they invoke the powers of the devil, which are said to be used to make people ill or infertile, or to destroy someone's business.
Ceremonies. There is remarkable consistency in the culture of Afro-Hispanic life of this region with regard to ceremonial performance. At the death of a child a chigualo is held. Here African rhythmic and musical patterns conjoin with such Spanish customs (sixteenth century) as dancing with the corpse in the little coffin prior to burial. The child is willed to heaven as a "little angel" or "pure angel" ( angelita/angelito ). Women control a similar ceremony, called arrullo, with cognate music, to bring saints to them and to their shrines. One of the most prominent saints in this region is San Antonio, whose color is beige; he seems, in some regions, to represent a transformation of the African deity Legba, the trickster. The "broker" (usually, a female, síndica, but sometimes a male, síndico ) of a given saint is the woman (or man) who is in charge of organizing a festival for that saint's special day, also called arrullo. Assuming this role is an act of reciprocity by a person who has received a favor, usually related to health, from the saint. During the alabado (wake) and novenario (second wake after nine days) for a deceased adult, women sing Moorish-Spanish-style songs to induce the soul to purgatory or heaven, without any rhythmic accompaniment. The important thing in this ceremony is that the soul leave the living and the community of the living. Another ceremony is sometimes performed after the second wake to force the lingering soul out of the world of the living.
The currulao is a secular ceremony, although it may be held at Christian sacred times, such as Easter, wherein, to the rhythm and music of exceedingly African provenience, men and women work through symbolic tensions manifest in their quotidian social relations. Finally, the most dramatic ceremony of all is the seldom-performed La Tropa (the troop), which enacts the formation of a palenque, the killing of Christ, the reign of the devil, the bringing of the forest into the Catholic church of the palenque, the resurrection of Christ within the forest within the church, and the liberation of the people of the forest and of the church within the palenque. La Tropa is performed only where priests permit people to do so, at Easter week, and people from the community or children of people from the community travel great distances to attend and perform.
Arts. Men make canoes and paddles, wooden bowls, drums, fish nets, and other ordinary and ritual paraphernalia; they also construct houses and shrines. A few men specialize in making incised clay pipe bowls with wooden stems. Women in some areas make gold jewelry. In Guïmbi, Ecuador, there is a master marimba maker who serves a large area, and in San Lorenzo a school has been established for the making of marimbas and all other musical instruments in use in Afro-Hispanic culture. There are itinerant artisans in the area who make such tourist goods as polished black coral, black-coral figurines, ivory-nut carvings, coconut and shell figures, and model boats.
Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)Its fighting against everything good so it can continue its centuries-long patriarchal and highly lucrative grift.
Celerity
(47,007 posts)believe in them.
It really says a lot about the religions that arise from a belief in a god or gods that on balance, the more of their many extraordinarily problematic diktats a person ignores, the better a human being that person ofttimes is.
The Catholic Church has been one of the most sorrow, death, ignorance, fear, hate, war, poverty, misery, guilt and pain inflicting/inducing power organisations in human history for 2 millenia.
Good people are not good because of their belief in gods and/or their adherence to a religion, they are good despite of those things.
Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)Celerity
(47,007 posts)gladly accepted on a site that is otherwise virulently (and rightly so) anti woo, but that the magical thinking (more properly called the wilful suspension of disbelief) necessary to believe in said deities is praised and the calling out of the tens of thousands (actually hundreds of thousands I wager) of years of utter death and sorrow that comes from that con is attacked at times, also ignored at times, and the ruinous history that came from the invention is disingenuously detached from the so-called modern 'acceptable' forms of said con(s), as if it all doesn't come from the same source.
Humans are not mistakes that some god or gods made, god or gods are the mistakes human made.
To take on the Christian religion (as that is what the OP is about) for example, the sheer antihumanism that flows from the belief that ALL who refuse to believe in and worship the correct god will be tortured in hell for eternity is OFF THE CHARTS HATRED AND MADNESS.
Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)and other Democratic sites, including Daily Kos.
If you call the chosen belief set known as Republicanism "a pack of poisonous, misogynistic, anti-science lies," you are patted on the back. No one disagrees.
If you call the chosen belief set known as Christianity (or Islam or whatever collection of mythologies you want to address) "a pack of poisonous, misogynistic, anti-science lies," you will be called a "bigot," a "hater," and "the reason we lose elections." Your posts will routinely get hidden, and you will be thought of as "rude" and "an asshole." And Christianity's bigotry towards women? Well, that's just fine and dandy! It's tradition! People have heartfelt beliefs about these misogynistic myths! And their grandma and president Biden are religious, and they're good people, so how dare you say anything against religion, ever?!
Attaching supernaturalism and the word "faith" to a chosen belief system is used as a "get out of jail free" card that supposedly makes it off limits to criticism. Well, fuck that.
Additionally, many people seem to be completely unable to distinguish between hating a system of belief and hating people. I hate Christianity (because its real-world effects have been off-the-charts horrific for centuries, especially for women); I do not hate Christians (or Muslims, or Jews, or Hindus, etc.).
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)Response to Celerity (Reply #41)
old as dirt This message was self-deleted by its author.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)an idiotic priest detailed to her just how many years my grandfather would spend in purgatory for missing church. She preferred Jesus' words to the bishop's.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)Fr. Phillip Berrigan and his wife, Liz McAllister, were both excommunicated in 1973 when they disclosed their marriage. (The excommunication was later rescinded.)
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-dec-08-me-berrigan8-story.html
snip-------
To pick up a newspaper in 1968 and see a photo of two Catholic priests in full Roman collars praying over a flaming pile of 1-A draft files -- nothing could be more shocking, said Jim O'Grady, co-author of a 1997 biography of the Berrigans, Disarmed and Dangerous.
The Berrigans were convicted of destroying government property. Philip was sentenced to three years and two months in prison, to run concurrently with a six-year sentence for a raid -- this one involving throwing blood on draft records -- the previous year on a draft board office in Baltimore. After sentencing, both Berrigans at first rather openly hid from the authorities, but eventually were arrested and served their terms. Philip was paroled after 2 1/2 years, Dan after 17 months.
Dan Berrigan wrote a play about the Catonsville raid, The Trial of the Catonsville Nine, which ran off-Broadway in 1971.
Dan and I went to prison because we believed that Christianity and revolution are synonymous, Philip Berrigan wrote later. He also believed that true Christianity required a vow of poverty. The next car is every mans dolce vita, he once said.
During his time in prison for the Catonsville raid, Philip was secretly married to McAlister, a nun whom he met in the antiwar movement. They disclosed the marriage in 1973, and both were immediately excommunicated.
snip--------
The Catonsville Nine original 5/17/68 footage
Deemed too dangerous for broadcast in May 1968, the iconic footage of nine Catholic activists burning draft files might have been lost forever if not for Pat McGrath a dogged and sympathetic reporter, who has struggled to ensure its preservation. Read the full story on Waging Nonviolence: https://wagingnonviolence.org/2013/05/how-the-catonsville-nine-survived-on-film/
JuJuChen
(2,253 posts)I quit the Catholic faith over the continued rape of children, just couldn't sit there on Sunday justifying it.
Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)the oppression of women all over the world. I'm glad you quit! I wish all women would!
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)That would be silly.
Do you find your own culture superior?
If so, what makes your own culture superior?
My wife's culture fought multiple wars against slavery and white supremacy.
It's just a part of her religion (Roman Catholic).
What did your culture do? (Just curious.)
Sky Jewels
(8,829 posts)except maybe liberal. Weve done a lot of good, thanks for asking.
You can pretend that the Catholic Church hasnt treated women like shit for centuries, but that doesnt erase history. Or maybe you just dont care. Any culture that denies women bodily autonomy deserves to wither away. I dont give a crap about that evil grifting/child rapist protecting/native & First Nation child kidnapping/gay rights-opposing/women-destroying institutions traditions. Its a tradition of centuries of a handful of very corrupt and powerful males enriching themselves and promulgating a reign of terror against women, gay people, and children.
NO progressive person should continue to enable the immoral, poisonous RCC.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)It's the default culture.
From which all other cultures are judged.
Nearly "cultureless", from some perspectives, I suppose.
Again, my wife's culture fought many wars against la cultura mayor.
shrike3
(5,370 posts)There's a cadre of bishops who've lived in lala land for quite a while. A few years ago, they called for Francis to resign. Their efforts fell embarrassingly flat.
They are the reason the international church ignores the American church more and more each year.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)No Black Cultures Need Apply.
You seemed upset that Black folks might run away from their masters and create their own cultures.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/122111009
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,849 posts)Bishops, right-wing Justices of the Extreme Court, many are Opus Dei fanatics. They have no words for pro-choice Catholics, other than maybe "excommunication" or "inquisition".
DenaliDemocrat
(1,559 posts)Honestly, the Magesterium especially the US Bishops and the Curia are grotesquely metamorphosed into the modern day Sanhedrin that the Christ spoke out against.
Conspicuously silent on the holocaust, the institutionalized rape of children, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the wars led by the Papal States.
Do not waste time on worrying about the opinions of the hypocrites.
Baltimike
(4,441 posts)milestogo
(18,389 posts)simply because they don't have the resources to raise 10 children.
They are not "fake Catholics". They are simply sane.
Same goes for Biden. He doesn't make policy according to Church teachings, nor should he. That makes him a good president, and it does not make him a fake Catholic.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)This dude could empty out the pews quite quickly if he wanted to start ejecting divorced Catholics.
It'll look like that old UCC ad on steroids.
United Church of Christ "Ejector" Ad
milestogo
(18,389 posts)Now that its common, Catholics get divorced. But there used to be all kinds of consequences for getting divorced, marrying a non-Catholic, etc. Very punitive.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)2010 California Marriage Protection Act PSA (#2)
hunter
(39,089 posts)The results can sometimes be quite dramatic or at the very least amusing, speaking from personal experience.
But lately I've had enough of that kind of drama.
I've been avoiding Mass since the covid epidemic began.
Authoritarian anti-intellectual religions and ideologies are extremely destructive and they infect everything in both religion and politics.
Those authoritarian anti-intellectual religions and ideologies I will resist; sometimes passive resistance, sometime aggressive resistance.
I will not accept them.
Response to hunter (Reply #68)
debm55 This message was self-deleted by its author.
old as dirt
(1,972 posts)...I haven't had to dress up in my suit and tie and go to Mass since the start of covid.
Used to be I had to do it every Christmas and Easter.
I'll probably have to do it again, some day.
sakabatou
(43,313 posts)GenThePerservering
(2,675 posts)not to pay attention to conservative white noise. These bishops haven't been relevant in years.
womanofthehills
(9,361 posts)Discussions about our various religions and whose was the real religion. Happy to report, my kid/grandkids would find that discussion too boring and uninteresting.