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Behind the Aegis

(54,671 posts)
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 04:51 AM Jan 2024

I didn't understand Holocaust denial until Oct. 7

“They ask me to speak in the schools,” my grandmother Manya told me over meringues as we sat in her mirrored dining room. “But who will believe me?”

Her question was figurative. Who would believe that this matronly, big-haired woman with a red lipsticked smile had endured forced labor in a work camp in Poland, dug mass graves and buried still-moving bodies with bloody earth, escaped the burning camp through a crevice in her barrack’s roof, and spent a year hiding underground in a hole so small that if one of the four there wanted to turn, they all had to turn?

My grandmother’s question was also literal. Who would believe that she had survived the Holocaust when it was just denied by an antisemitic head of state and by a tenured university professor down the street?

When I had this conversation with my grandmother in 2009, her fears of denial seemed unfounded. Yes, there were Holocaust deniers, but they were outliers. Besides, a logical solution to denial seemed to be more education. With enough proof, I thought, the skeptics my grandmother feared so deeply would have to acknowledge the truth. Amid so much evidence, how could anyone have the gall to deny?

Now, in the aftermath of Oct. 7, I finally get it. My grandmother was not paranoid; her cynicism was exactly right. No proof of Jewish suffering will ever be enough to quash denial — so perhaps, it’s time we stop trying to explain ourselves.

more....

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I didn't understand Holocaust denial until Oct. 7 (Original Post) Behind the Aegis Jan 2024 OP
But claudette Jan 2024 #1
And yet, there are a number of people who deny it (Oct. 7th), just as there are Holocaust deniers...TODAY! Behind the Aegis Jan 2024 #3
Yes claudette Jan 2024 #4
Wait, what? Behind the Aegis Jan 2024 #5
I am aware of claudette Jan 2024 #7
Well, now you know. Behind the Aegis Jan 2024 #8
Here's a random 10/7 denier from twitter posted yesterday Mosby Jan 2024 #12
I'm guessing that you meant nobody here on DU is denying it. nt MarineCombatEngineer Jan 2024 #14
Keep reading the article Beastly Boy Jan 2024 #6
The distinction is... brooklynite Jan 2024 #9
And there it is. Behind the Aegis Jan 2024 #22
What does video proof matter sarisataka Jan 2024 #13
+1 betsuni Jan 2024 #17
TY.. Rec. And Please see Post # 16 Cha Jan 2024 #18
Just because you haven't seen anyone Cha Jan 2024 #16
And yet . . . Richard D Jan 2024 #19
Rec.. Yes I took that into Cha Jan 2024 #20
Dismissing dangerous propagandists as "outliers" or attributing their RockRaven Jan 2024 #2
BtA, you speak for me completely. Fellow travelers in arms. It's why I love you so much AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #10
Thank you! Behind the Aegis Jan 2024 #21
Susan Sarandon is the poster child for this JohnSJ Jan 2024 #11
There is no denial, it, the Holocaust. happened. republianmushroom Jan 2024 #15

Behind the Aegis

(54,671 posts)
3. And yet, there are a number of people who deny it (Oct. 7th), just as there are Holocaust deniers...TODAY!
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 05:05 AM
Jan 2024

There are multitudes of videos out there claiming Oct. 7th was "glorious" to "it is just Zionist propaganda". There was/is video/pictures of the Holocaust and yet, there are STILL Holocaust deniers. You are aware of that, aren't you?

claudette

(4,154 posts)
4. Yes
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 05:12 AM
Jan 2024

I am
Aware of the deniers. Both events were horrible and inexcusable but they are not exactly the same. Hamas, fortunately, does not have the power or means to do what Hitler did. And strong militaries defeated Germany. No one is minimizing what happened on 10/7 when they point out the terrible price innocent Palestinians are paying in Gaza.

Behind the Aegis

(54,671 posts)
5. Wait, what?
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 05:20 AM
Jan 2024
I haven’t seen anyone denying that 10/7 happened. Then, I am Aware of the deniers..

Both events were horrible and inexcusable but they are not exactly the same. Who said this? No one. This is what is known as a strawman argument.

No one is minimizing what happened on 10/7 when they point out the terrible price innocent Palestinians are paying in Gaza. Another strawman.

No one is minimizing what happened to innocent Palestinians of Gaza when they point out the terrible price innocent Israelis suffered on Oct. 7.

See how that works?

claudette

(4,154 posts)
7. I am aware of
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 06:39 AM
Jan 2024

The deniers of the Holocaust. Not of 10/7. Calm down you seem to be reading something into my comments that I’m not intending. Bye

Mosby

(16,959 posts)
12. Here's a random 10/7 denier from twitter posted yesterday
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 12:16 PM
Jan 2024



They just have questions of course. Guy has 386.6K followers.

Eta - the translation is wrong of course, but that won't matter in the long term to the haters.


Beastly Boy

(10,496 posts)
6. Keep reading the article
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 06:09 AM
Jan 2024
When I had this conversation with my grandmother in 2009, her fears of denial seemed unfounded. Yes, there were Holocaust deniers, but they were outliers.


Then compare it to:
I am aware of the deniers. Both events were horrible and inexcusable but they are not exactly the same. Hamas, fortunately, does not have the power or means to do what Hitler did.


See any similarities?

The article is not about how Hamas compares to Hitler. It’s about how the world reacted to Hamas killing Jews.

The world, in the face of the rise of global antisemitism keeps saying “they are outliers”. Hamas are not. And the world’s reaction? But they are not Hitler.



 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
9. The distinction is...
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 06:55 AM
Jan 2024

…Hana’s apologists don’t deny that Oct 7 happened; they argue that it was an appropriate response to…..something.

Behind the Aegis

(54,671 posts)
22. And there it is.
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 04:18 AM
Jan 2024

That pretty much sums it up; boils it down to the most basic of points. All we here is "but, but, Israel..." and "what about", along with "Israel should do this, some bullshit made-up crap that sounds more like a Netflix movie".

sarisataka

(20,084 posts)
13. What does video proof matter
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 12:37 PM
Jan 2024

Auschwitz stands, yet people still deny it was a death camp.

A caller named Roseanna falsely referred to the events of Oct. 7 in Israel as having been “debunked,” referring to an internet conspiracy theory that the evidence of Hamas’ brutality on that day was manufactured. “Meanwhile we are watching an actual genocide in real time,” she said.
https://jweekly.com/2024/01/03/cease-fire-letter-falls-flat-in-alameda-after-a-tense-5-hour-meeting/

This was in Alameda. Clips were posted from Oakland and other meetings where people flat out denied Hamas had anything to do with October 7 or even if it happened. Pro-Hamas protesters have also publicly denied the atrocities happened on more than one occasion.

Cha

(302,367 posts)
16. Just because you haven't seen anyone
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 02:39 PM
Jan 2024

denying it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Two months after Hamas’ attack on Israel on Oct. 7 and the murders, beheadings, and rapes — which Hamas terrorists themselves documented with body cameras and broadcast on social media — Palestinian Authority (PA) officials are denying this took place

https://www.bing.com/search?q=some+are+denying+oct+7+happened&form=ANNTH1&refig=4e10d526d0684000b300437b57ec56df&pc=HCTS

In addition to denying the massacre as “stories and tales spun from the imagination” — some officials even accuse Israel of murdering and committing atrocities against its own citizens.

Qadura Fares, the director of PLO Commission of Prisoners’ Affairs with the rank of minister. has stated that Israel’s response to eradicate Hamas’ terror infrastructure in Gaza is “based on a lie,” and that Israelis “killed their civilians” on Oct. 7:

Qadura Fares: “This whole [Israeli] outcry and this whole campaign against the Palestinian people is based on a lie, which it took Israel 24 hours to create and formulate properly. They killed their [own] civilians [on Oct. 7], and they committed all these crimes and burned the bodies, and they made up this story and said: ‘They [the Palestinians] raped, killed, and burned.’ …However, this narrative fell apart quickly … Israel’s lie is no longer tripping anyone up.” /excerpt]
https://www.algemeiner.com/2023/12/15/palestinian-authority-leaders-deny-october-7-massacre-took-place/#:~:text=Two%20months%20after%20Hamas%E2%80%99%20attack%20on%20Israel%20on,Authority%20%28PA%29%20officials%20are%20denying%20this%20took%20place.

So Fuck the GD PA Asshole Liars

Richard D

(9,125 posts)
19. And yet . . .
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:57 PM
Jan 2024

. . . people have perfect and unquestioning faith that the number of dead reported by The Gaza Health Ministry, operating under the control of and part of Hamas, is telling the whole truth about the death count in Gaza.

Cha

(302,367 posts)
20. Rec.. Yes I took that into
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 11:08 PM
Jan 2024

Consideration when I said a FU to the PA Liars.

HAMAS & PA Lie About Everything

And, HAMAS Started this War knowing Full Well What Would Happen to Gaza.. and Not Caring.

RockRaven

(15,832 posts)
2. Dismissing dangerous propagandists as "outliers" or attributing their
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 05:04 AM
Jan 2024

false statements to a lack of education/information is an experience I cannot identify with...

While I have been ignorant of many things and remain ignorant of still many others, I cannot recall experiencing that particular type of blissful ignorance.

Behind the Aegis

(54,671 posts)
21. Thank you!
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 04:15 AM
Jan 2024

What a nice thing to say, especially in these times. We should feel safe and validated here, but, alas, it is up to us and the few allies, actual allies, we have.

Throughout history, we Jews have been ghettoized, demonized, and told we are vermin in the same breath that we clandestinely run society. We have survived not because we have convinced any others of our worth, but rather thanks to our values. Like the Holocaust survivors, we will continue to survive, each and every day.

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