Some other accounting of deaths besides the Hamas-run Health Ministry's?

Dead and missing Ukrainian children tally is at…………? Both genocidal atrocities are sick. But Putin only wants the focus to be on Gaza, to totally distract from the hell in Ukraine. And destroy Biden re-election. We need to be just as outraged at the slaughter in Ukraine AND Gaza. And the slaughter of Jewish victims on October 7.
And the separation of children crossing our border plus slicing them up in river crossings
And the GQP are welcoming the deaths in Ukraine. We have a Party here covered in blood of children, clutching the BuyBull and doing God’s work according to the GQP’s accepted preachers.
It’s just a shame “all the children” are not still in the womb or in a Petri dish.

Plus a significant number of Ukrainian kids were injured.


Any death of a child is horrific - but in Gaza 13,000 children killed in months. Plus I think the injured kids number was around 25,000. Total of 50,000 injuries - kids 25,000, women & men are the other 25,000.

But now that the Ukrainian army according to NYTs has 500,000 Ukrainian soldiers dead & injured ( plus the 600,000 Ukrainian men who left Ukraine) - Ukraine is taking 17 yr old boys so they might get included in kids killed.

when it comes to children dying..... Not a good look.

They don’t, of course include thousands still trapped under rubble.

Is upwards of 10,000. So the real death poll probably 40,000.

God help us all.

Or are they under the rubble too?

So families can check list wto see if relatives are dead or alive - that’s why kids names & dates of birth are often written on their bodies.

17,000 kids are orphans thousands are amputees. I think America should bring a hospital ship to Gaza to provide
prosthesis for the thousands of Gaza kids with no arms & legs. Can you imagine losing your arms and your family too.

10,000 dead beleaved to be under rubble- so it’s probably more like 40,000 dead.

On CNN today, they mentioned that the 104 dead figure in Gaza City today does not include an additional 740 wounded.

and pretend all those children aren't really dead. I guess you have to ease your conscience somehow.

"Official figures" is a designation I hadn't seen previously, and I'm asking if MSNBC is making a new distinction. I'd always seen it qualified as "coming from the Hamas-run Health Ministry".

I'm not pretending there aren't 1,000s of dead children. We're both culpable in the deaths of children to the same degree, so how do you ease your conscience? Does it work?

So you are right that we are both responsible in that regard. The difference is that you seek to dismiss the importance of those deaths, while I do not. That is clearly the implications of your post.

What evidence do you have that the numbers are wrong?

I thought the claimed number was far higher than 30,000, frankly, and that this was actually a clarification and downward revision. It's a war being conducted in a small territory, with no escape route and 2.3 million inhabitants.

Hamas has created conditions in Gaza where huge numbers of innocent deaths are unavoidable. Perhaps they thought a Democratic American president would be able to prevent Netanyahu from acting after the atrocities of 10/7? Then they were naive.

Are you talking to Israel, or Hamas here?

and here that believe Hamas has done nothing wrong.

there are people who believe that Israel can do no wrong.

Last edited Thu Feb 29, 2024, 03:48 PM - Edit history (1)

In all cases but I am unaware of any that deny Israel is attacking Gaza.

There are people who deny Hamas committed rape and murder on October 7. Others claim the victims deserved it.

ETA> as can be seen in posts here

that Israel KNEW about the attack a year ahead of time, and foolishly did nothing, They could have taken a more defensive posture. Instead, they removed defenses, allowing Hamas to do their dirty work. Israel let it happen on purpose.

Prove it.

But there is proof.

Is not the same as LIHOP or MIHOP.

Incompetence is not equivalent to malice. You're convinced that it was deliberately ignored by Netanyahu's govt in hopes that it would be carried out so there was an excuse for genocide. I don't see proof for that.

From VOA
“ Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Saturday that he "will not compromise on full Israeli control" over Gaza and stated that "this is contrary to a Palestinian state," rebuffing U.S. President Joe Biden's comment that creative solutions could bridge wide gaps between the leaders' views on Palestinian statehood.”

https://www.voanews.com/a/damascus-airstrike-said-to-kill-iranian-revolutionary-guards/7448161.html

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. They dropped the ball on 10/7.

Oct 7.

Total of 36 kids including baby girl Cohen - 10 kids under 10 killed in Israel. This is horrific - but for revenge Israel kills 13,000 kids.

All would be hunky-dory?

The IDF is not seeking to kill kids intentionally. They are warning civilians to move. This is an operation to destroy Hamas fighters, it is not a "revenge" of killing a baby for a baby.

Also, Hamas continues to keep 9 children (including 2 babies) hostage that they kidnapped when Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7. https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-10-children-still-held-hostage-in-gaza-yet-to-be-freed-under-truce-deal/ My guess is Hamas killed those kids, otherwise they would have turned them over.

Have killed and are killing civilians in large numbers, in the thousands?

That is just an astounding amount of idiocy within the IDF. It is such an astounding amount of stupidity that I find it very difficult to believe.

Hamas specifically targeted civilians on October 7. That is a huge difference from what the IDF is doing. Hamas did not give the civilians any warning. They did not give them a date when the killing would commence. They just went in and sadistically raped and killed civilian men, women and children. Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Of course the IDF knows that civilians may be killed when they target Hamas. That is why the IDF gave the civilians warning and time to move out of Northern Gaza. But Hamas keeps using civilians as human shields and hides among civilians in hospitals and refugee camps.

Just like we knew civilians could likely die when we targeted terrorists in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq, we could not simply abandon our mission to take out those terrorists who were plotting American deaths. Those civilian deaths are on the terrorists who hide among civilians.

And it was Hamas who started this war, fully knowing it would "martyr" Gazans.

Missing your targets at least 10,000 times seems criminally incompetent. Again, at this point, arguing that this is not intentional is utter nonsense.

And destroying the tunnels. The problem is that the Hamas terrorists surround themselves with civilians, even in Northern Gaza and Gaza City, where civilians were supposed to have been evacuated out of months ago.

Link to tweet

calling out posters can be considered hidable.

Can you honestly say you have not seen any of the posts asking "where's the proof", "why don't the victims come forward", "show the pictures to prove it"...

Or posts saying "it must be viewed in the context of what has gone before", "oppressed people will strike back", "the IDF fired indiscriminately so probably killed most of the victims", "resistance is justified", "I have no sympathy for Israelis"

as well. Thanks.

Last edited Sat Mar 16, 2024, 10:58 PM - Edit history (1)

as many Palestinians as they want. Human life is human life, and the death tolls aren't nearly close. But as long as Muslim life means less, people excuse it.

Some have hinted that perhaps they do not.

Jewish as well as Muslim, but the clear view on this board is that Muslims are worth less. I'm sorry it bothers you so that some people are concerned for the lives of Palestinians as well.

that I am very concerned about Palestinian lives. I have met them in the Middle East and found them to be very typical human beings who have been used as pawns by many groups, including their own leaders.

I also know urban and asymmetric warfare. There are things I have criticized some of Israel's decision but IME their actions are not as out of line as many believe. In the real world I know enemies do not have a red triangle over their head and civilians have a green one so you know who to shoot at and who to avoid.

Were I a fairy godfather, I would wave my wand today and end all of the conflict.

Can we agree that killing civilians is unjustifiable and horrible?

It is unjustifiable.

Killing anyone is horrible but may be justified.

Are the tens of thousands of civilian casualties all accidents? The IDF doesn't understand that their actions in Gaza are killing civilians?

I don't think you believe that. Instead my guess is that you believe the siege is justified regardless of the number of civilian casualties.

When the toll hits 100,000 will you justify that as well?

And at no time did I state or imply any deaths are accidents.

Have you ever been in an urban warfare situation and had to make a split-second decision whether to shoot or hold fire? I am guessing the answer is no.

We have and we know how harrowing it can get.

I haven't seen that - I would like to put them on block - can you PM me their names if you don't want to put it here.

I do not keep a list. But yes there have been several. I'll search my history tonight.

Hamas did nothing wrong. I want to be sure I continue to avoid them.

That’s been made pellucidly clear.

Were those kids hamas members?

Hamas started this mess, so OP's lecture should apply to them first, IMO. OP did not clarify, so I asked for clarification. Hamas also is well known for using human shields, therefore, OP's lecture should first apply to them for that. Hamas CAN stop this at ANY time, now. Not going to go through the whole list again of what they need to do. It's been stated many, many times.

Israel allowed it to happen. They were informed of the plan more than a year ahead of time, and ignored it.

For discussion's sake, let's assume Israel strongly suspected that an attack like the one on 10-7 was imminent....What do you suppose they could have done to stop it?

I think all that they could have done was to preemptively strike at Hamas positions in Gaza......and many civilians would have been killed.

What do you suppose some headlines, or even OP's might have been after that?

"ISRAEL LAUNCHES SURPRISE ATTACK ON GAZAN CIVILIANS"

Fortunately, most people are wise to this game by now.

What could have been done was for Israel to take a defensive position, maintaining key locations.
They did not have to attack.

during Ramadan amongst other provocations (gov't sponsored settler violence etc) which led to the 10-7 attack in retaliation. Bibi was looking for a pretext.

So, according to those posts, you are not correct in that Israel's actions "started" the Oct raid.

the population for years now, while also secretly propping up Hamas. Likud wanted a war with Hamas to use as a pretext for ethnic cleansing and theft of Gaza. Likud simply did not think the attack would be that big or that it would happen when it did.

The Palestinian people are the ultimate victims here - and it's our job as Americans to stop funding Israel until there is regime change - this amoral regime that is full of far-right racists and nationalists (such as Ben-Gvir and Smotrich) that has intentionally brought about this crisis.

Any breakdown on the ages or does hamas not want that figure out?

They don't officially distinguish between civilians and fighters, either.

Quite the eye opener, isn't it, to realize that if Hamas had been following the Golden Rule, we wouldn't be having this discussion...

Have a nice Nazi day

And that deserved that WOW.

I merely named it. And, one doesn't have to be religious to abide by this rule, either, do you???

... Israel has ALWAYS out killed, out displaced any sort of Palestinian resistance to being removed from Palestine, East Jerusalem, West Bank, Gaza ...

Hamas should stop committing atrocities and Israel should stop murdering women and children. I'm glad to see the Biden administration speak against the tactics Israel is using.

. . . Gaza Health Ministry, run and controlled by Hamas. Very trustworthy source.

You'd think people would be pissed at Hamas for starting this whole thing, but no. As is too often the case, it's the Jews.

Beware of unconscious anti-Semitism. It is a real thing,

They just don't care . . . on some level - it's personally acceptable to them.

Replace Israelis with the Cherokee tribe - and they sing a different tune.

The rapes, sexual torture, mutilations, beheadings, baby burnings, murder, and more were justified?

. . . since you used the "None is their land" trope, on what stolen indigenous tribal land are you living on? How soon do you plan on returning it?

Was it built right away, or did several attacks by Palestinian militants necessitate Israel AND EGYPT to build a wall around 3/4 of Gaza? Yes, part of the "open air prison" is on the Egyptian border. I really doubt Egypt allowed Israel construction crews to trespass on Egyptian soil to build the 3rd part of that wall.

So reporting that thousands of Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli bombing is antisemitism too now? How high does the number need to get before it's not antisemitism?

I really hope he has a plan to combat this cause like I said I have 2 that are outraged about this and aren't going to vote, well at least now they aren't.

Kidults white - or are they minorities?

I have 2 nephews and 1 nieced - and their spouses that are 30 and under. . .

African American - but leaning hard into Biden/Harris. I think they know from my dad and his siblings just how bad and evil American has been to us. Like - we were treated like the Palestinians for 100 years. And as a result of Trump - we are heading back to the cotton fields.

Maybe your kidults know they are safe(r) in a Trump America? So they don't have to worry because the color of their skin will protect them?

They believe with Roe vs Wade being a State issue, they are going to vote Dems down the local ballot, but not vote for President. well, at least my daughter is, I am not sure my son will even vote. He seems very uninterested this time.

My point is if they are thinking this, there are probably a ton of other young voters like this.

I hope young African American and Latino voters show up in huge numbers. They are pragmatic - and will be out to save themselves.

Eh? We can get out before Trump takes power.

ETA - Because I shared this thread with my niece Ayana who is doing GOTV in Morris County NJ - She doesn't care about abortion. She feels that is directed at white women - not her.

"...the Health Ministry said the Palestinian death toll from the war has climbed to 30,035, with another 70,457 wounded. It does not differentiate between civilians and combatants in its figures but says women and children make up around two-thirds of those killed. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-29-2024-f9b5a62a80d8b83eac4946d3c85af58b?taid=65e05a21b0ea880001d4fa3d

So Hamas includes their terrorists in the 30k killed figure they have come up with. The children killed number is likely highly inflated. And the IDF does not intentionally target children, unlike Hamas terrorists who intentionally killed babies in their cribs on October 7.

So undoubtably many were 16 & 17 yo Hamas members helping fire rockets/AK-47's/RPG etc

If the world and the UN would have immediately condemned Hamas and pushed for them to release the hostages. If the world and the UN would have demanded the arrest and prosecution of the Hamas leadership at the Hague.

A lot of energy is being used to blame Israel for everything, but Hamas could end this conflict anytime it wanted to.

was reported on CNN.

What Israel has become under the far-right Likud is a theofascist state that supports settler violence, ethnic cleansing, cynical partnerships with terror groups like Hamas.

In no way should American tax dollars be used to support such a regime.

The Palestinians are an oppressed people living in an apartheid state, ruled by a terror group in Hamas that was long enabled by Netanyahu himself:

“for those of us who want to thwart a two state solution, we need to strengthen Hamas and funnel them money. It’s part of our strategy.” - Benjamin Netanyahu

Contrary to earlier reports that were based on Hamas propaganda, the Gazans weren't "waiting." It was a stampede on the first aid trucks to reach northern Gaza in a month.

The AP headline about it no longer contains the word "waiting." The article explains that it is becoming "nearly impossible" to deliver aid to northern Gaza due to a "breakdown of public order":

and Clarissa Ward - both of whom are great reporters and reviewed the evidence - were very skeptical of the IDF spokeman's explanation.

Netanyahu's cabinet is full of far right monsters like Smotrich whose strategy is to cause death, misery and suffering in Gaza. These incidents targeting humanitarian aid are not accidents and have been documented by major news outlets. Earlier this month an aid truck convoy was attacked by IDF forces even after the IDF was were informed it was a humanitarian mission. The convoy was stopped at an IDF checkpoint when it occurred.

Your CNN link discusses another incident involving an aid truck allegedly hit by a rocket. As CNN notes, nobody was hurt in that incident.

Yes, Netanyahu is a corrupt, right wing asshole. Hamas loves having him as a foil.

This will divide the left and specifically Democrats and we will lose our country and we will ALL suffer for it right here. Take a look at what is happening right now. Here. Right here in America and understand how exponentially worse that will be in a year from now.

I do not like what is happening in Gaza. Not one bit but we are being wedged to the point where we will be ineffective in stopping the front that is pushing through on us.

We had better wake the fuck up and take care of what is going on right now. We have little to zero control of what Israel does. And if we allow ourselves to be divided and distracted here there are going to be generations of people that are going to be living in a fucking nightmare.

as much as you think they have no right to do so. They don't need propaganda.

And I have a right to call out those lies.

Does the US not send Israel billions in military aid? Have they not supported Israel in this war? I fail to see the lies they are responding to. The only lies I see are the ones you are telling yourself.

and Israeli is killing civilians, bombing Gaza will the full knowledge that many thousands will die. Pretending that isn't intentional is nothing more than a word game.

And civilians being killed in Gaza because they are being used as human shields by Hamas as the IDF bombs Hamas to root Hamas out of Gaza (after warning civilians to evacuate), then I can't help you.

Unless you think the IDF is just massively stupid they understand that their operations in Gaza are killing tens of thousands of civilians. I don't think they are stupid. They know exactly what their actions are doing. The siege of Gaza has become a genocide.

Israel has a right to kill Hamas, just like we had a right to kill Osama Bin Laden. It was Hamas' decision to surround themselves with civilians. The fighting in Gaza is not a genocide. What the Hutus did to the Totsis, killing 800,000 of them, a whole population, was a genocide. Killing 6 million Jews, almost all the Jews in Europe, that was a genocide. What is happening in Gaza is not genocide.

Hamas' reported figure of 30,000 dead for Gaza includes Hamas militants, and the rest are dead civilians because Hamas won't evacuate civilians from the war zone, and neighboring Arab countries won't take them in to escape the fighting.

billions annually of our American tax dollars. We should not be funding a RW fascist Likud gov't whose goal is ethnic cleansing. Defund Israel now until they agree to a two state solution that recognizes the humanity and rights of the Palestinian people to also exist.

That Hamas has preemptively rejected a two state solution? How should we work around this minor obstacle?

The fate of the Palestinian people should not rest with Hamas or Netanyahu. It should be on the West (who funds Israel) to demand regime change in Israel and and new direction as condition of support, and we should demand more protections for Palestinian civilians.

Have repeatedly advocated the Netanyahu should be replaced.

Hamas however is the de facto government of Gaza. If they will not accept a two state solution there will be no two state solution.

and defund Israel and demand regime change. The extremist Likud cynically supported the extremist Hamas, because both oppose a two state solution. Both should be declared rogue regimes and the West should proceed accordingly, with aid to civilians on both sides of utmost importance.

but it sounds like declaring them rogue regimes will either
-I assume Israel would elect a new government thus the rogue designation will be removed-

A- the "west" will try to take over Gaza to provide security (see Northern Ireland, Afghanistan, Viet Nam)
or
B- supply Israel with as many missiles as they need and hope for the best but Israel may not fire back

They have offered 5 times before and it has been refused. Several of which they have offered more land than what Israel ended up with. Most recently 1967, 2000, and 2008.

Defund Israel. That doesn’t work and everyone knows it. We defund Israel and you know what the end result is.

Stop the insanity of allowing this to pull our country apart. This is exactly the end result that Putin and others are counting on.

Biden Vetos that and there is no way he wins the election.

I believe everyone understands that, no? This is exactly by design.

Back in the days of Viet Nam. This is not the first time,
People sometimes do not remember history.

Viet Nam ended nearly 50 years ago. The parties and influences now are not the same. Back then you had a Republican party that was very anti USSR. Now you have a party bending over backwards to assist in its return. You have a Republican party that is much more focused (than ever) to return power to rich white men, and would do so by subjugating wen, minorities, and the other.

This animal is similar but also an entirely different breed. And it needs to be put down.