General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPoll: Are tugboats infrastructure?
Based on the lack of tugboat regulations and reduction of tugboats on Baltimore's inner harbor and turning basin.
Compared to bridge disasters and the rebuilding costs, tugboats are inexpensive.
21 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
Yes | |
11 (52%) |
|
No | |
1 (5%) |
|
Never considered it | |
7 (33%) |
|
Tugboats schmugboats, who needs 'em | |
0 (0%) |
|
I don't know what a tugboat does | |
0 (0%) |
|
Tugboats are too expensive | |
0 (0%) |
|
Tugboats are a librul plot by Chi-Coms and radical leftists | |
2 (10%) |
|
0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
Show usernames
Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
getagrip_already
(17,611 posts)The ship had 2 tugs escort it from the dock to the channel and then released it with a harbor pilot on board.
That is 100% standard policy and in no way a cutback.
Where do you get this stuff?
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Miami cargo harbor and turning basin requires tugs from harbor channel entrance and to exit.
Not the only harbor to do so.
Upon further review, do ya think that this standard procedure needs to be upgraded in Baltimore harbor?
getagrip_already
(17,611 posts)Keeping a tug or two on station at the bridges probably isn't a bad idea. But not sure an attached escort is required.
Every harbor is different. Currents, winds, traffic patterns, it all enters into the coat guard recommendations to the harbor for rules.
One size does not fit all.
I'm just a small boat guy, but I am coast guard licensed, and I've been in and out of some very busy harbors. Not every one needs full tug duty.
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Obviously I'm not talking about pleasure boaters.
I would suggest relatively cheap preventative measures for ships that can take down bridges.
getagrip_already
(17,611 posts)An ocean going tug costs upwards of $25M a year to run.
The tugs typically need to meet the ships a few miles beyond the first buoys, which are out in the ocean. That's where they will transfer the harbor pilot to the ship, which can be a real pucker power operation.
The captains make 7 figures, or very close to it. As do the harbor pilots. Good work if you can get it.
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Harbor tugs are not open ocean going vessels.
They are two different things.
getagrip_already
(17,611 posts)The knee bone is connected to the shin bone....
You are saying you want a tug escort from entrance to exit (I assume you mean dock or anchorage).
Well, where do you think the entrance to a harbor starts?
It starts at the number 1 and 2 buoys, which are out in the ocean, not in the harbor. Or in the case of Baltimore harbor, i suppose its out in the Chesapeake bay (not my area, dont know the waterways). Not quite the ocean, but beyond the durability of a harbor tug.
So how far out do you want them escorted?
Leave it to the experts. Yes, they didn't have sufficient protocols in place. I agree.
But I'm not sure a 50 mile escort is the answer.
Look at a marine chart.
EX500rider
(11,643 posts)...and ship traffic will go somewhere cheaper.
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Don't know why you are going at the extremes.
I don't know of bridges 50 miles out in the ocean, do you?
I'm thinking that it's entirely reasonable that simple and effective measures be undertaken, like tugboat escorts for large container ships that can knock down bridges they go under.
I don't get how there could be pushback against this. Unless one is a container ship owner or leasee.
getagrip_already
(17,611 posts)Even before you get out into the bay.
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)That's what my conversation is about. Protecting bridges from being knocked down by mega container ships.
getagrip_already
(17,611 posts)Beyond the Scott Keyes bridge and then there is the Chesapeake bay bridge tunnel.
While you couldn't knock out shipping traffic on the bay bridge tunnel, you could possibly take out the roadway. That would be a pita, but not crippling.
The waterway is critical, but that is safe.
EX500rider
(11,643 posts)Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Obviously, not all ports have the same regulations regarding tugboats managing large container ships going through channels with bridges that can be destroyed by them.
Seems like it might be worth reconsidering, especially now that another major bridge has been destroyed by a ship without tugboats guiding it.
getagrip_already
(17,611 posts)Lng gets tugs from cradle to grave (hopefully not literally). Also any vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver.
Nuclear subs will also be escorted in from about 5 miles out. Usually a tug will follow along with a couple of ribs.
So it depends.
spooky3
(36,566 posts)Is likely liable (whether due to engine/power failure or captain error), and that the govt could go after them to reimburse all the costs, though this would take time if it had to go through courts. An analyst guest said Maersk could sustain even a multimillion dollar hit.
cloudbase
(5,830 posts)spooky3
(36,566 posts)Aware of liability law.
EX500rider
(11,643 posts)It now looks like this:
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Tugboats are cheap compared to bridge collapses.
They save lives too.
One would think it is fair to require them considering the capacity for disaster and history these mega ships have.
EX500rider
(11,643 posts)But a tugboat is no guarantee, they could still have accidents due to fog etc
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Tugboats have radar also, so if the mega ships were to lose power, tugs would still be able to redirect ships with power failure.
That's what tugboats are for.
EX500rider
(11,643 posts)Tugs can also have engine failures. Protecting the bridge supports with protective bumpers like the Sunshine Skyway has is a must IMO
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)It would be a VERY implausible situation for multiple ships to all lose rader at the same time. Not enough data to figure the odds, but it would be very long odds.
I also agree with the idea of buttressing the abutments.
pinkstarburst
(1,563 posts)And do they have the mass necessary to stop a huge freight vessel moving at however many knots loaded down with containers if it loses power?
EX500rider
(11,643 posts)And if you notice, the center supports also have a island built around them
Turbineguy
(38,578 posts)They lost power several times. It could have been running the bow thruster before getting an extra generator on line caused the second blackout. In any case, there was a smoke plume just before the allision, presumably the emergency full astern bell on the main engine.
I think an escort tug would not have had time to avoid this accident.
In the Puget Sound tankers are required to take escort tugs.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Captains dont put their ships into neutral and let the tug do all of the movement.
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Harbor tugs operate from the sides, redirecting forward motion of inbound and outbound ships in motion.
I agree it's not obvious when thrust and control was lost. Having tugs in place could well have redirected it. Especially with the ship moving at 8 knots or under.