straight on.....

in countries like Finland, Sweden, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Denmark, Belgium, Italy.... you know, all those countries that don't experience gun deaths and mass shootings on anything like what we see in the US. Obviously it can't be because those places have sensible gun laws.

Nope, because "it's not the guns, it is people."

So obviously those places must not have any people.

Just in case it's needed:

But, there were plenty of guns, then as there are now, not the semi's , but, pistols like the one that was used in yesterdays killing in school. How come none then, and now almost one a day? Answer the question.

I couldn't easily find data going back seventy years, but here's some going back to 1970:

https://www.chds.us/sssc/charts-graphs/

Here's some data, sparse as it is, going back further than that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(before_2000)#1940s

It's important to note that reliable crime statistics weren't even kept until the 1960s. And even these were less than all-inclusive. The FBI didn't begin compiling its Uniform Crime Report until the mid-1930s. The resulting system had serious flaws, which weren't addressed until the whole system was reformed in the mid-1980s. Most recently, gun enthusiasts have severely limited the ability of the federal government to do adequate research on gun violence, because the results of that research upset their fee fees. Then too, before the advent of social media, most gun violence, including school shootings, remained a local story.

There has been a marked increase in school shootings in the last twenty to thirty years, in large part due to how the US has been flooded with guns in that time, especially since the Supreme Court gutted most sensible gun measures. As you point out, a part of this increase was in the availability of semi-automatic weapons, which have come down in price to the extent that most anyone can buy one. These are the weapons of choice for mass shooters, which because of the Supreme Court and Republican inaction in Congress are now available to most anyone, including adolescents and people with a history of threats and violence.

So now you answer the question: if it's "people" not guns, how is it the US is alone among developed nations in this plague of gun violence? As has been pointed out again and again, all the nations I cited have people, video games, violent movies, issues with mental illness, economic stressors, and every other problem of the modern era you can cite. What they don't have is a culture flooded with hundreds of millions of guns, certainly not the semi-automatic weapons, like the one used by the 14 year old in the most recent school shooting in Georgia.

What makes people in those countries so different from Americans? Are you saying we are a uniquely murderous people?

The deaths of people by violence, be it by a gun, or knife, the common denominator is person/people/

The rate of gun violence in the US, including school shootings, is vastly higher than in any comparable developed nation. This makes the overall death by violence much higher here as well. It's simple, really. The use of a firearm vastly increases the chance that a violent interaction will be lethal.

How many dozens of children have been killed in schools this year in any western European nation you care to name? How many killed by guns? Compare that to the number killed in the US thus far this year. What do you see?

Here, I'll help. In Germany, thus far this year, there has been exactly one student shooting. In the US: 288 shootings as of the last count.

Overall, and just by comparison, in 2012, the most recent statistic I could find with a quick Google search, there were a grand total of 62 gun deaths in Germany. In the US in 2014 there were 10,945.

And you seriously believe that easy access to guns in this country has nothing to do with this disparity?

This "it isn't guns, it's people" argument is an old chestnut gun enthusiasts have used for decades. That line is wearing thin, as is "thoughts and prayers."

But then anything to avoid looking at the need for common sense gun regulation.

It's totally the guns and I couldn't agree more, the "it's the people" argument is not cutting it.

With that said.
Do you own or have you ever owned a firearm (gun) ? Do you know anybody who owns a firearm (gun) ?Have any of those guns, yours (if you have owned one) or those that you have known of ? If you have not known of a gun to have killed a person, why not if 'guns kill and people don't'. When a driver of an auto, drives into a crowd, do you blame the auto or the driver ? A firearm is just an object like an auto, how it is used by a person/people dictates good or bad. There are approx. 460 million firearms in the public hands and more everyday. There are approx. 20 million AR style rifles in the public's hands. That horse in not going to be put back in the barn. You have one political party that advocates ownership of firearms and a supreme court that agrees with them. In your life time you may see some reasonable gun control, but, the gun will still be out there.

and in the hundreds of millions, thanks to people who treasure their toys more than the lives of our children. And given your reasoning, we can expect many more young children to die gruesome deaths as "the price of freedom."

"Have any of those guns...or those that you have known of?" Not sure what that means. But yes, I knew someone murdered by a gun, shot in the neck during a robbery. She bled to death before she could get to a hospital. I also know women who have been raped at gun point. But thank God the guns weren't hurt, and that the rights of the gun owners weren't "infringed."

As for automobiles, they serve a purpose that has nothing to do with killing human beings or animals. Guns, not so much.
 
But by all means, let's go a bit further with your analogy to cars.

We register every car on the road. We require that every driver have a license, and to get that license every driver has to pass a written exam and then pass a road test. We require the owner of every car on the road to carry insurance. We have speed limits, stop signs and traffic lights that regulate how cars are driven. We mandate that drivers obey all manner of rules, including which side of the road to drive on, the use of headlights at night, and so on. We regulate the lead content of gasoline, and tax gasoline to maintain our roads. How about we tax ammunition enough to pay for all the social costs incurred by those who insist on owning firearms?

And every automobile on the road is required to pass a yearly safety inspection. The government also mandates seat belts, and there is a fine for people caught not using them. There is an age limit on who can drive on a public road. There are laws regulating the alcohol blood levels of drivers, and those breaking those laws can lose their license or end up in prison.

So yes, let's treats guns like cars. Register every gun with the government. Require gun owners to pass exams before they can own or even handle a gun. Require every gun owner to carry insurance, and jail those who refuse. Do random checks of gun owners for blood alcohol levels. Require all guns to be inspected every year. Require all gun owners to periodically renew their license.

Then too, the type of vehicles on the road is also strictly regulated. When was the last time you saw a Bradley Fighting Vehicle driving down the main street of your town? Know anybody who owns a tank, or a half track, or a self-propelled gun?

Yes, I would love to see guns treated like cars in this country.

BTW: you never did answer my original question. If it's "people, not guns" that account for our annual firearms slaughter, how come no other developed country on earth suffers the sort of massacres we are forced to endure? Aren't there people in western Europe, in Australia, in New Zealand? Why no gun massacres there if guns aren't the deciding factor?

But I don't expect an answer. "The guns will still be out there." Indeed. Just hope no child you know ever finds themselves on the receiving end of one of those "AR style rifles."

Edited to add: I blame the persons and the guns. And I also blame the people who make spurious arguments to minimize the role that guns play in the continuing waste of innocent lives, with the result that all we ever do in response to massacre after massacre is offer "thoughts and prayers."

Last edited Sun Sep 8, 2024, 04:34 PM - Edit history (1)

People are the deciding factor, so why not allow every terrorist group and rogue state on earth their own nuclear arsenal? What's the point of nuclear arms treaties? After all, it isn't hydrogen bombs, it's people!

Why not allow unlimited access to bio-weapons? Everyone should have their own biological warfare capability. After all, it isn't anthrax bombs, it's people!

All you're doing is attempting to justify the gun fetish by using this old NRA talking point. It's a distraction at best, and disingenuous.

Here's another factoid for your consideration: The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html

So if it isn't the guns, I guess it's because Americans are 57 times more depraved than the rest of the G7?

You still haven't even attempted to answer the first questions I put to you, although I have answered many of yours.

And so I see no point in continuing this discussion.

Best wishes, and I sincerely hope you and yours don't ever experience the terror so many of our children have to endure, thanks to our worship of guns and our inability to work for a genuine solution.

Prior to 1939 most countries in Europe, were govern by either
monarchs, dictators or puppet govt. dictators. Being either one, guns were not allowed to common people for fear of assignations or over throw of their govt. After WW2, Europe was to busy rebuilding to get into a gun craze. Plus after 2 world wars in 31 years and 40 million +/- dead, they had seen enough death. Most of eastern Europe was ruled by the Soviets behind the Iron Curtain and no guns were allowed under Soviet rule. Europe still fears revolution and assassination. I think taking a clue from the US they are going to keep tight control of their guns.

The reason there is so little gun violence in those nations is because there are so few guns.

Do a better job controlling access to guns, and you do a better job preventing gun violence. This is and should be self-evident.

Glad to see you're finally getting the point.

.

It isn’t the fucking frying pan ok pal?

wake the fuck up.

We need common sense gun laws. NOW!

You are equating today with your experience 70 years ago. You are comparing apples to cinder blocks.

Does easy access to this shit not matter to you?