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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy fucking frustration today with the debate.
They are reporting on how many dozens or maybe even hundreds of hours of intense debate preparation Kamala is going through to prepare for the debate, while dumbshit does no preparation whatsoever because he doesn’t have to accurately answer questions or tell the truth, SHE has to be perfect!
This is goddamn RIDICULOUS.
Dave Bowman
(4,182 posts)BaronChocula
(2,532 posts)I think it's just a reflection of her ethic and fiber. She's not going to beat him at being crazy and lazy. I'm pretty sure she's got some strategery up her sleeve.
Think. Again.
(20,055 posts)...she's gonna mop the floor with him.
Ocelot II
(122,070 posts)because he had an uncle who was a professor at MIT and therefore he's smarter than everyone. I don't think it reflects at all badly on Harris that she is preparing thoroughly; I think it shows that she means business and takes everything about her campaign and her potential presidency very seriously. Anybody who knows anything about trial preparation knows exactly what she's doing and why she's doing it - she's approaching this as she once would have approached a trial. When you prepare for a trial you have to know every single detail of the case, every aspect of the law that applies, and you have to be able to anticipate every possible curveball the opponent or the judge might throw at you. In this regard the debate is not by any means Harris' first rodeo.
pat_k
(10,883 posts)See post downthread.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219432786#post5
All he ever does is make all those noises with his face and he thinks he's debating. It's impossible to hold a normal debate with him because he doesn't respond to the questions. I think Harris knows she can't effectively rebut his lies because everything he says is a lie; and instead will have to go on the offensive. She's seen enough of his performances to know what he does and to see that normal debating doesn't work.
Walleye
(36,972 posts)nikatnyte
(330 posts)This is the clearest, loudest definition of "double standard" I've ever seen.
jimfields33
(19,382 posts)Presidential candidate. Maybe a few watched clips of the joint interview. But most are beginning to show interest in the election. After Labor Day is when the interest for most voters begin. Of course, for us it’s 24/7. For most, it’s a small window that their interested.
Walleye
(36,972 posts)jimfields33
(19,382 posts)Frustrating to the rest.
Skittles
(160,873 posts)she was held to impossible standards, while Trump was held to no standards at all
GopherGal
(2,402 posts)with the media likely pulling up a golf cart to give him a ride right under it.
pat_k
(10,883 posts)And any journalist worth their salt should be reporting that.
There is NO doubt that he is a "gish galloper" so why isn't it topic number one in speculation about how the debate may go? Do the nation a service and actually discuss something meaningful for a change.
How to Beat Trump in a Debate
Unprepared and weak-willed opponents continue to play right into his hands.
By Mehdi Hasan
February 16, 2023
Donald Trump is probably unaware that he’s an avid practitioner of a debating method known among philosophers and rhetoricians as the Gish Gallop. Its aim is simple: to defeat one’s opponent by burying them in a torrent of incorrect, irrelevant, or idiotic arguments. Trump owes much of his political success to this tactic—and to the fact that so few people know how to beat it. Although his 2024 campaign has been fairly quiet so far, we can expect to hear a lot more Gish Galloping in the coming months.
Let’s take as an example the first televised presidential debate of the 2020 election campaign. The Fox News host Chris Wallace invited Trump to deliver a two-minute statement. And he was off:
snip
Trump’s statement was the oratorical equivalent of the media-management approach famously summed up by Trump’s former strategist Steve Bannon—“flood the zone with shit.”
As one pithy tweet—now known as “Brandolini’s law”—put it, “The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.” The Gish Galloper’s entire strategy rests on exploiting this advantage. By the time you’ve begun preparing your rebuttal of the Galloper’s first lie, they’ve rattled off another dozen. They want to trick the audience into believing that the facts and the evidence are on their side. (They have so many examples!) The technique is based on delivery over depth. Some call it “proof by verbosity.”
. . .
The article goes on to provide ways to deal with a gish galloper. I'm sure she'll be prepared for it. I'll be watching for the techniques.
Paywall-free link
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/donald-trump-debate-strategy-gish-gallop/673061/?gift=CiksPDoBurvFhUHnw_O61nOv2FePkuP8hFxKtW8dwfI&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
andym
(5,766 posts)from the article:
1) Pick your battle
When facing a Gish Galloper, going line by line is impractical, if not impossible. Instead, single out their weakest claim or argument. Highlight and mock it.
2) Call them out.
Point out what they are doing.
3. Don’t budge.
Above all, make sure you stop Gish Gallopers midstream. And then don’t let them move on to the next falsehood. Keep pounding at them with a well-prepared rebuttal. They may not concede the point, but they’ve been derailed and are now forced to argue on your terms, not theirs.
Here is an example of Prof Ken Miller actually winning a debate against Duane Gish, the eponymous practitioner of the Gish Gallop, on evolution.
pat_k
(10,883 posts)She Galloped on in this vein for several more minutes, piling one “example” of evil Muslims upon the next, and not stopping to expand or elaborate.
There was no way I could address all of the supposed examples she cited to justify “fear of Islam”; she listed 33 items in less than two minutes—about one every four seconds.
This was no nuanced discussion about the problems of Islamist extremism. No, this was a screed that sought to taint all of Islam, and all Muslims—presumably myself included—as aiders and abetters of terrorism. Any effort I might make to draw distinctions and unpick some complex realities from this fabric of bigotry would be doomed. It would have taken several minutes, if not my entire allotted time. It also would have put me on the defensive, when the key to winning any argument is to put your opponent on the back foot. So, instead, I chose to zero in on the most ludicrous assertion: that Saudi Arabia was the “birthplace of Islam.”
“Just on a factual point,” I responded, “you said that Islam was born in Saudi Arabia. Islam was born in 610 A.D. Saudi Arabia was born in 1932 A.D. So you were only 1,322 years off! Not bad.”
By mocking and debunking that particular claim, I poured doubt on the rest of them—and made my opponent look foolish in the process.
And, of course, if we had more journalists doing journalism, "Calling Out" would be far simpler because we would already have plenty of discussion of trump's crazy "gish galloping" and how it is essentially impossible to actually refute when your debate opponent is solely focused on “flooding the zone with shit," as Bannon advises.
No paywall link:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/donald-trump-debate-strategy-gish-gallop/673061/?gift=CiksPDoBurvFhUHnw_O61nOv2FePkuP8hFxKtW8dwfI&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
Shermann
(8,767 posts)Instead of wasting time on a weak argument only to have it followed by another, get your opponent to clearly state their strongest argument. Then destroy that argument.
Frank D. Lincoln
(786 posts)MorbidButterflyTat
(2,660 posts)And he never will.
"Philosophers"?
pat_k
(10,883 posts)Whatever you call it, gish gallop, firehouse of falsehoods, whatever, the practitioners present a unique challenge that has been a subject of interest since before the term "gish gallop" was coined 30 years ago. There is a clear difference in effort between making bullshit claims and refuting them, a difference sometimes referred to as "the bullshit asymmetry principle" or brandolini's law.
These are things that should be the subject of discussion among analysts and journalists going into the debate.
TheBlackAdder
(29,139 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(32,539 posts)miss Vice President, NOT $34 as you stated.
Justice matters.
(7,671 posts)that HE lowered the price of insulin (before Joe & Kamala did).
And the brainwashed magats (or repugs voters not magat) will believe him.
Call him a liar? He will quickly say "no, you're the liar" and that will be the end of it.
Next question? (He won't answer any, just lies and lies and lies.)
durablend
(8,052 posts)How dare she!!!!!!!!!
Hope22
(3,355 posts)Add in a few well placed farts and that is the best that can be done to prepare. If life has taught me one thing it is that you can’t win when ignorance/ insanity refuses to listen! She needs to watch his off the wall past debates and take the chance at screaming back until she is satisfied that nothing she says to him will get through or matter. My heart is with the VP. May she persevere. She is about to hear $#it that she in no way deserves to hear.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,539 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(32,539 posts)"Excuse me, but when I am in a room with a 34 count convicted felon who is under several more pending felony indictments, I am not debating them, I am PROSECUTING them!"
getagrip_already
(17,615 posts)Debate prep in this case is getting used to tsf's style. His gish gallop. His outrageous lies. His offensive race/mysoginistic bating statements. How to react without over reacting (what if he calls her a b@#$% or n@##$%?).
Policy is easy. Answering even dumb questions is easy.
Debating a dimented fool who wont answer a question or use coherent sentances is hard.
There will be two seperate events. One will be an interview, the other will be a campaign stump rant. And they will happen at the same time.
kentuck
(113,060 posts)The media does not know how to report on Donald Trump. So they choose to ignore everything he says with no analysis.
underpants
(187,863 posts)SWBTATTReg
(24,569 posts)'He knows it all'.
Pathetic.
If Kamala keeps her wits about her and maintain her composure and keeps control of the conversation when it's her turn (and she will), she'll mop the floor easily w/ tRUMP's floppy and greasy ass hair.
It'll be very noticeable that her thorough preparation on the issues will pay off. And being a prosecutor, she'll be able to handle 'defendant tRUMP' quite well, along w/ his childish, immature, and emotional outbursts.
The outbursts by tRUMP will go a long way towards convincing the audience of tRUMP's lack of, eh..., everything!!
If anything, she needs to remind the audience that 'there he goes with his weird responses (OR his weird answers)'. Keep harping on that, since tRUMP is already rattled by the tag 'weird' being applied towards him.
bdamomma
(67,056 posts)Project 2025 over and over again. That is one thing he can't get away from.
So there is going to be an audience there??
SWBTATTReg
(24,569 posts)tRUMP tried to get a faux event instead of the one now planned, just for the friendly faux audience, so probably not, but I could be wrong.
Traildogbob
(10,379 posts)To spew like he did on Child care. What did he call it, weaving or some shit?
I would expect the narrators to do just a little fucking prep, or what’s the point? Just more free airtime for Jabba?
Hope she lets loose with the MuthaFucka, right before she plants a 3 inch Heel in his facial anus. Just for a little viewer pleasure.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,539 posts)"Excuse me, but when I am in a room with a 34 count convicted felon who is under several more pending felony indictments, I am not debating them, I am PROSECUTING them!"
Traildogbob
(10,379 posts)Enrage him off the bat. Dig dig dig, laugh laugh laugh!!! Have him so mad his face looks like a bloated tequila sunrise. Orange and red. With salt forming around the rim of his facial anus.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,539 posts)mucifer
(24,958 posts)paint the studio with his own feces.
samnsara
(18,339 posts)..and I will record it. I will be on DU reading updates and if i see shes flat out killing him then I will watch it live.
JustAnotherGen
(34,050 posts)For those assholes to heap fawning praise on Hateful 45.
bdamomma
(67,056 posts)be running his mouth and just lie about everything. I don't know if I will watch C span. I really don't want to hear the MSM analyzation. I hate the felon, I just want him gone. There's too much underhanded crap going on with Russia interfering again, and these stupid polls with incorrect data.
I know VP Harris is going to do well, she just has to slaughter him.
JustAnotherGen
(34,050 posts)Tuesday night and we go pretty late. I may not watch it all.
Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #22)
bdamomma This message was self-deleted by its author.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,539 posts)"Excuse me, but when I am in a room with a 34 count convicted felon who is under several more pending felony indictments, I am not debating them, I am PROSECUTING them!"
D_Master81
(1,926 posts)A debate implies that both parties are presenting facts and arguments and it’s up to the American people to decide who won. Trump just throws so much BS out there that you don’t have time to fact check it all. At best he will be presented as telling untruths post debate but that’s only for the people watching the talking heads. Live it doesn’t get called out.
TommieMommy
(1,343 posts)broncobev1
(20 posts)It probably won't matter how well Kamala Harris does, the MSM will minimize how well she does and deny the blathering pablum that trump spits out.
no_hypocrisy
(49,589 posts)In Court, you can prepared up the wazoo. And if you’re lucky, adversarial counsel is making a fool of him/herself. Rule #1: Don’t interrupt. The judge/jury is/are listening.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,539 posts)druidity33
(6,609 posts)she should say:
"Don't you just hate a know-it-all? Especially one that you know is wrong... all the time?"
or
"Was that an answer? Because all I heard was a string of nonsense."
or
"You've got to be kidding me. The whole world now knows you are both stupid and dangerous."
just a couple of suggestions.
wryter2000
(47,645 posts)She can be full of facts and figures and not point out “what he just said is utter nonsense.”
moonscape
(5,434 posts)software than hardware. Facts ‘n figures won’t matter as much as perception, bit of humor, likability, strength/command without perception of being overbearing. We need more fence-sitting males!
I’d imagine a lot of the prep is simply being up against crazy. Hope she has more shrinks in those prep sessions than policy wonks!
Being a woman can be tricky. Ask Hillary.
wryter2000
(47,645 posts)For good practice
Frank D. Lincoln
(786 posts)...would it have been a better move strategically if Kamala had let Trump back out of the debate (when he was making excuses) without pressuring him to debate her?
That way Trump would have come across as a coward to voters without Kamala or her campaign calling him out on it and she would have avoided the ordeal of having to deal with his bullshit in a debate. She would have also avoided mainstream news media coverage of the debate that would have likely given preferential treatment to Trump.
Then again, if Kamala wins the debate decisively, her poll numbers will likely soar and she'll attract millions more voters.
It's a gamble.
I'm betting on Kamala Harris.
phylny
(8,625 posts)the job seriously.
bdamomma
(67,056 posts)the American people will respect and civil.
DoBW
(2,184 posts)He has Hannibal Lecter
perdita9
(1,199 posts)Trump just has to not pee on the floor.
We went through the same nonsense when Hillary was running.
America's mainstream media may well cause the death of our democracy.
Nixie
(17,478 posts)on any knowledge base because he is only about abuse.
Sogo
(5,914 posts)~Kamala Harris, Democratic National Convention, 2024
He's a POS!! and a felon.
Evolve Dammit
(19,471 posts)allegorical oracle
(3,684 posts)comebacks to his sarcasm, lies, and put-downs -- and then directly make the points she needs to make. It's difficult to make corrections AND make your points within the confines of timed minutes.
JohnSJ
(97,010 posts)the massive number of viewers that will watch it.
It is on local ABC so you don’t need cable or satellite to see it, and it will present both candidates in full view of millions of viewers.
They will see the candidates as they really are.
This debate will move the polls.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,539 posts)What matters is people who are undecided or weren’t going to vote in the first place, hard to imagine such people exist but they do and they have to watch, nothing else matters.
JohnSJ
(97,010 posts)A significant number of people do not answer calls they do not recognize because of all the SPAM calls.
Brainfodder
(7,181 posts)Besides the ton of negative publicity Chump has gotten, he is so rotten to the core, the 600!
FELON.
I still have him losing almost every state by Nov 5th with small chance of dropping dead from multiple organ failures.
totodeinhere
(13,438 posts)MorbidButterflyTat
(2,660 posts)over something I have absolutely no control over.
Maybe take a deep breath and try to relax.
Kaleva
(38,777 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(156,662 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(32,539 posts)A debate is two people answering questions and giving their views on a given issue.
One person will do exactly that while the other does not answer a single question nor tell the truth a single time.