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Ocelot II

(123,950 posts)
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 07:16 AM Nov 2024

I've been reading about the Norwegian resistance movement during WWII

when Norway was occupied by the Nazis. The Nazis' three main civilian targets were journalists, teachers and the clergy - all of whom resisted in courageous ways. There were many underground newspapers; the teachers went on strike and some were punished by being sent to labor camps in the Arctic. Ninety-three percent of the clergy resigned from the (Lutheran) Church of Norway in order to fulfill their oaths of ordination and formed an underground church, and a number of pastors were tortured, imprisoned and executed. People wore paper clips on their lapels as an apparently innocuous symbol of resistance. All of this is interesting history, but now I'm wondering whether it will get so bad that we'll need a resistance movement, too. Am I being too dramatic?

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I've been reading about the Norwegian resistance movement during WWII (Original Post) Ocelot II Nov 2024 OP
But they were eventually liberated by the allies by defeating Germany. Who will liberate us? Javaman Nov 2024 #1
I wish I knew. Ocelot II Nov 2024 #2
Who will save Ukraine? Attilatheblond Nov 2024 #21
yup. not only Ukraine, but Taiwan and South Korea as well. there are many others but those are the big ones. nt Javaman Nov 2024 #25
No one. onecaliberal Nov 2024 #28
No one is coming to save the USA JustAnotherGen Nov 2024 #39
That's what I was thinking "we are the resistance." kerry-is-my-prez Nov 2024 #3
Why not paper clips? They have a noble history as a resistance symbol. Ocelot II Nov 2024 #5
The Paper-Clip Resistance starts here and now, today. lastlib Nov 2024 #10
Im down. It will take the idiots among us at least 4 years to figure out what it means. Volaris Nov 2024 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author jfz9580m Nov 2024 #4
I subscribe to Arendt's idea kairos12 Nov 2024 #31
I live in the California Republic Magoo48 Nov 2024 #6
Same here. We are very grateful to live here. Silver Gaia Nov 2024 #17
Same musette_sf Nov 2024 #53
Not too dramatic kenziemom06 Nov 2024 #7
No, he knew its was a deadly airborne virus. He lied that's why so many died. onecaliberal Nov 2024 #29
America is an idea, and they can't kill an idea. ariadne0614 Nov 2024 #8
We've got less than two months before things start going sideways. Ocelot II Nov 2024 #9
Here in the California Republic, fascism won't go over too well. Magoo48 Nov 2024 #14
I'm pretty confident that New England will resist. griffi94 Nov 2024 #47
...And then, there is Florida. Conjuay Nov 2024 #52
Can Blue states secede Marthe48 Nov 2024 #11
ironically markie Nov 2024 #15
John Steinbeck's great book, The Moon Is Down ananda Nov 2024 #13
No. I'm stunned. Joinfortmill Nov 2024 #16
No. We are having similar thoughts at my house. Silver Gaia Nov 2024 #18
Gene Sharp's Dictatorship to Democracy Blue Full Moon Nov 2024 #19
Resistance lindalou65 Nov 2024 #20
Thank you for starting the discussion about resistance jmbar2 Nov 2024 #22
a wave of blue resistance DoBW Nov 2024 #24
That Wave... GB_RN Nov 2024 #54
Interesting idea jfz9580m Nov 2024 #33
No, Ocelot II... GiqueCee Nov 2024 #23
I guess my question is just rhetorical Ocelot II Nov 2024 #26
I'll scream with you... GiqueCee Nov 2024 #36
A good way to start in a failing capitalist society Klarkashton Nov 2024 #27
You may be on to somethig. defacto7 Nov 2024 #41
Put them though a Christmas season where sales are down Klarkashton Nov 2024 #43
That would be no loss for me. I can do without it. defacto7 Nov 2024 #44
It's that simple. It's actually painless. Cancel Klarkashton Nov 2024 #45
Maybe you should make this a new discussion. See what comes of it. defacto7 Nov 2024 #46
This. Economic pain. griffi94 Nov 2024 #48
It's actually their only fear. "Consumer sentiment" Klarkashton Nov 2024 #50
Exactly, consistent sacrifice in some key areas of consumption will be a good beginning. Magoo48 Nov 2024 #49
Not too dramatic. summer_in_TX Nov 2024 #30
Ooo! Good idea! GiqueCee Nov 2024 #37
K&R defacto7 Nov 2024 #42
Everyone needs to read up on the kairos12 Nov 2024 #32
The Norwegians didn't elect the Nazis HereForTheParty Nov 2024 #34
True, and that makes it a lot harder. Ocelot II Nov 2024 #38
What I'm most worried about are the most vulnerable people and the economy. Lonestarblue Nov 2024 #35
I agree. I hope charities and other organizations will step in and help. Ocelot II Nov 2024 #40
Yes, all of this. Magoo48 Nov 2024 #51
Not too dramatic... Ysabel Nov 2024 #55

Javaman

(63,498 posts)
1. But they were eventually liberated by the allies by defeating Germany. Who will liberate us?
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 07:18 AM
Nov 2024

Javaman

(63,498 posts)
25. yup. not only Ukraine, but Taiwan and South Korea as well. there are many others but those are the big ones. nt
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:16 AM
Nov 2024

kerry-is-my-prez

(9,734 posts)
3. That's what I was thinking "we are the resistance."
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 07:24 AM
Nov 2024

We need to have a symbol. Some jewelry, scarf or other piece of clothing.

Volaris

(10,800 posts)
12. Im down. It will take the idiots among us at least 4 years to figure out what it means.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 08:18 AM
Nov 2024

Response to Ocelot II (Original post)

kairos12

(13,366 posts)
31. I subscribe to Arendt's idea
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:30 AM
Nov 2024

that the key to a totalitarian takeover is the elimination of any divergent voices. The Leader speaks in one voice, all must follow, or be eliminated. That's why MAGA hates anyone who doesn't adhere to the propaganda and doesn't look like them.

Everyone who is different. The camps are waiting.

Hannah saw this coming in this country.

Magoo48

(6,141 posts)
6. I live in the California Republic
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 07:41 AM
Nov 2024

I believe we will resist, to what extent I don’t know.
Last time our state passed laws protecting ourselves as best we could.
I’m still glad we have two formidable mountain ranges and deserts, both high and low, between us and DC.

musette_sf

(10,359 posts)
53. Same
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 10:45 AM
Nov 2024

I have loved living here for the last 26 years, but never more than I do this day. So grateful that I made a career path that supported the move.

kenziemom06

(115 posts)
7. Not too dramatic
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 07:55 AM
Nov 2024

I mean, the last time Trump was President there were body bags in the streets of New York because he thought Covid was just like a cold, so anything is possible this time.

ariadne0614

(1,939 posts)
8. America is an idea, and they can't kill an idea.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 07:57 AM
Nov 2024

Acquiescence, appeasement, and suicide require a level of self-loathing I don’t possess. Fleeing to another country is pointless, since this will affect the entire planet.

Resistance is the only acceptable option I can think of. This situation requires that we gather our wits and develop an organized plan.

Ocelot II

(123,950 posts)
9. We've got less than two months before things start going sideways.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 07:59 AM
Nov 2024

I don't know what forms resistance should or can take but we'd better think of something.

Magoo48

(6,141 posts)
14. Here in the California Republic, fascism won't go over too well.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 08:24 AM
Nov 2024

I’m sure you all feel the same about somewhere you live. So, we resist.

Marthe48

(20,362 posts)
11. Can Blue states secede
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 08:15 AM
Nov 2024

idiot red states always threaten that. Maybe blue states should give it a try. How else will the freedoms and opportunities America promised be maintained? I'm sorry for the people who fought so hard to keep the United States a free counrty using the Constitutuion of The U.S.A. as its roadmap.
The criminals have thwarted and perverted the principles and intent of this country. The people who will pay the hardest are women, minorities, and LGBTQ+, and all of us who are woke. But if this criminal band takes power, we are all losing our country, and no matter if we support the criminals or defy them, we will lose everything we worked to have, from our loved ones to our property, to our freedom.

It makes sense to me to separate from the ruins and try to establish a country based on American ideals.


Obviously, I'm heart broken.



ananda

(31,431 posts)
13. John Steinbeck's great book, The Moon Is Down
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 08:23 AM
Nov 2024

deals with Nazi resistance in Norway.

Quote: The story follows the townspeople as they grapple with the meaning of freedom and their obligations as citizens. The invaders impose their will on the villagers, but the villagers fight back.

The Moon Is Down inspired resistance across Europe. After World War II, Norwegian King Haakon VII awarded Steinbeck the Freedom Cross for the book's perceived impact in Norway.

The book was secretly translated into many languages, including French, Norwegian, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, German, Italian, and Russian

In fascist Italy, possessing the book was punishable by death.

Blue Full Moon

(1,953 posts)
19. Gene Sharp's Dictatorship to Democracy
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 08:50 AM
Nov 2024

I read it when the Arab Spring was occurring. When I read it. Wow sounded like something to use against the (maga) republicans.

lindalou65

(330 posts)
20. Resistance
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:01 AM
Nov 2024

I’m in New Mexico and ready to join if a resistance group is formed. Paper clips sound good as a way to ID one another.
I am in a state of shock this morning. Hard to accept our loss to a vile human who is likely to make millions of our lives miserable.

jmbar2

(6,750 posts)
22. Thank you for starting the discussion about resistance
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:09 AM
Nov 2024

There are a lot of weaknesses inherent in fascist regimes to exploit.

IMO, much of this has been the product of the Christian Nationalists/New Apostolic Reformation(NAR)/Opus Dei movement. There are more of them than I thought there were.

They will be fighting each other like scorpions in a jar for power, influence and money. That's one place to start.

DoBW

(2,401 posts)
24. a wave of blue resistance
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:15 AM
Nov 2024

I think not in question --- just what the transition looks like

GB_RN

(3,324 posts)
54. That Wave...
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 11:56 AM
Nov 2024

Any wave for us needed to happen yesterday. I am seriously afraid of the future for the first time ever. Caligula won young men and Hispanics by about half…and the latter group are the very people Caligula wants to deport!

“Slugs for salt! Slugs for salt! Slugs for salt!”

This, a letter I wrote to the guys who run Electoral-Vote.com, is about what this country has just voted for:

Not too long ago, the far-right dominated NC General Assembly finally decided to expand Medicaid under the ACA. The reason they decided to give those “slacker, unemployed people” insurance is not out of any compassion for the state’s less fortunate residents. No, it was simply the almighty dollar. See, the state has been losing rural hospitals and even the major (academic) medical centers have been losing money because they have to absorb the costs of uncompensated care. It doesn’t look too good when your constituents have to go through multiple counties in order to get to a hospital, because their own hospital closed due to money loss. A closure that could have been prevented by expanding Medicaid years earlier. And that’s exactly what happened earlier this year: We lost a rural hospital not too far away (due to $ losses, and inability to find a partner hospital for funding). A county with 20,000 people, now have no emergency care, or other major medical facilities within 45 minutes. That’s too far for many stroke or heart attack patients to have a reasonable chance to save some/most/all brain/cardiac function.

So, to read that MAGAt Mike Johnson is even considering monkeying with the ACA, just blows my mind (although, it really shouldn’t). And what makes this even worse, is most of Louisiana is rural, and had to be suffering the same hospital closures, and there’s no way MAGAt Mike is unaware. Unless he’s been living under a mountain of rocks.

If this doesn’t just scream that he and the rest of the nutters are giving the public the middle finger, while saying “Eff YOU!” to the public, I don’t know what does. Unconscionable.

For the record, I am affected by all this as I am a cardiac catheterization lab nurse, and I work in one of the state’s academic medical centers.


The light at the end of the proverbial tunnel (the election, prosecution of the real political criminals, taking action on global warming, confirming women’s rights, minorities no longer politically persecuted, etc., take your pick) turned out to be a goddamned freight train. A train headed straight to Hell with Cantaloupe Caligula the Corpulent at the controls. This is all could have been prevented if “Moscow Mitch” McConnell had voted to convict for the second impeachment). I weep for the nation and indeed, for the planet.

jfz9580m

(15,589 posts)
33. Interesting idea
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:33 AM
Nov 2024

Thanks jmbar2. I guess a lot of power hungry grifter fascists would find getting along with each other hard.

GiqueCee

(2,053 posts)
23. No, Ocelot II...
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:12 AM
Nov 2024

... you are not being dramatic ENOUGH. When a psychopath tells you, and shows you, time and time again, just what monster he is, BELIEVE HIM!
There can be no wishy-washy dithering from those who have to power to strip away the curtains of malice and deceit behind this obscenely corrupt travesty. The red flags are everywhere; the assholes bragged about what they were doing, even as they stuffed election boards with election deniers.
This is NOT over.

Is that enough bold italicized caps for you?

Ocelot II

(123,950 posts)
26. I guess my question is just rhetorical
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:21 AM
Nov 2024

because I feel like I ought to be out on a street corner screaming. Dramatically.

Klarkashton

(3,237 posts)
27. A good way to start in a failing capitalist society
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:25 AM
Nov 2024

Is to stop buying needless shit and hoard your money.

defacto7

(14,016 posts)
41. You may be on to somethig.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 10:01 AM
Nov 2024

We should stop playing their games. There are probably other ways to unplug from their system.

Klarkashton

(3,237 posts)
43. Put them though a Christmas season where sales are down
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 10:03 AM
Nov 2024

Even 2% and it's a fucking depression.

defacto7

(14,016 posts)
44. That would be no loss for me. I can do without it.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 10:11 AM
Nov 2024

We should just get off the capitalism train all together. Buy used, barter with like-minded friends, grow our own food if we can. Just get off the grid.

Klarkashton

(3,237 posts)
45. It's that simple. It's actually painless. Cancel
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 10:15 AM
Nov 2024

Some subscriptions. Don't impulse buy. Pay off all debt and horde cash. The whole cha cha collapses in 6 months.

griffi94

(3,830 posts)
48. This. Economic pain.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 10:23 AM
Nov 2024

I know that’s going to be tricky. Billionaires own almost everything now.

Klarkashton

(3,237 posts)
50. It's actually their only fear. "Consumer sentiment"
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 10:28 AM
Nov 2024

That marketplace program on NPR has drilled it into my head. Consumer spending is the whole fucking game. They have a 2 or 3 % drop and it's panic time. I could easily cut out 5% monthly and so could a lot of people.

summer_in_TX

(3,519 posts)
30. Not too dramatic.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:28 AM
Nov 2024

I’m going to order Ruth Ben-Ghiat’s Strongman. I hear it has a lot of detail about how resistance is done under authoritarian regimes.

Ocelot II

(123,950 posts)
38. True, and that makes it a lot harder.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:48 AM
Nov 2024

But one of the things I learned when reading about the Norwegian resistance movement, which was one of the most effective such movements in Europe, was that some people were Nazi sympathizers or members of the party, and the resistance members were constantly having to hide their activities not only from the known Nazis but from friends and neighbors - either because they were known to be on the Nazis' side or because they didn't know; so everything was very clandestine. The long-term effects of this secrecy and mistrust lasted for years after the war was over.

Lonestarblue

(12,499 posts)
35. What I'm most worried about are the most vulnerable people and the economy.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:37 AM
Nov 2024

The most vulnerable groups are LGBTQ+, especially trans, women of reproductive age, the elderly on fixed incomes, and those without healthcare. I believe Obamacare has only a short life left, and Medicaid and other social safety net programs will be history. With the huge deficits that will come with tax cuts for the wealthy and big corporations, Social Security benefits will be cut significantly, harming the elderly poor who depend on it to stay alive. Another way the poor of all ages will be harmed is the reversal of a cap on insulin prices as well as the end of any attempts to lower drug prices.

Trump’s plan to deport millions of undocumented workers will have a huge negative impact on food and other costs. To avoid this, I think he will instead round up those who are not working—women, children, the elderly, the infirm—and put them in deportation camps for eventual deportation, including any children who are US citizens. Those who have jobs in major industries will be ignored until all others have been forced out of the country. The SC will turn a blind eye.

The other way the economy will be hurt is through tariffs. Other countries will retaliate and we will be in a trade war with inflation constantly rising. US manufacturers will see their exports decline, and that will be followed by job cuts.

Trump and Project 2025 has promised all of these actions and the media did very little to warn voters or to explain the probable consequences. A few articles comparing the Trump and Harris economic plans were ineffective, probably because they were only in media like WaPo and NYT—not a source of information for most Trump voters.

So here we are. I foresee more underground activities for resistance, like the abortion providers called the Janes. I’m not sure what other clandestine activities would benefit people, but I think they will arise.

Ocelot II

(123,950 posts)
40. I agree. I hope charities and other organizations will step in and help.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 09:53 AM
Nov 2024

For example, there are existing organizations that arrange and fund travel to states where women can get legal abortions, which will be needed as long as there isn't a nationwide abortion ban. Realistically I don't see that happening immediately, though it certainly could at some point. Free or low-cost health care clinics, community farms and gardens - these are all small, local things but every little effort will help someone who needs it.

Magoo48

(6,141 posts)
51. Yes, all of this.
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 10:33 AM
Nov 2024

Cooperatives and strong communities within communities. Selective, consistent boycotts and targeted lifestyle sacrifices. The pain is relieved by sense of fellowship.

Ysabel

(2,080 posts)
55. Not too dramatic...
Wed Nov 6, 2024, 12:25 PM
Nov 2024

We need to think about how we're going to survive this and resist as much as possible whenever and wherever we can...

Thanks for this thread...

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