Wait, what?

50% threw away their vote and 21% were chickens voting for Colonel Sanders.

It would not surprise me if Bibi is using the military to clear beachfront property at taxpayer expense and to perform the cleanup in preparation for resorts being built there. One of the hotels is proposed to be next to parliament and the other next to the IDF headquarters.

lose a lot of money not being able to grift.

Trump has never lived up to any agreement or contract. Why have scruples now?

He did know how to fry chicken! If you got to go, might as well go with the best, or something like that.

With such wonderful thoughts as “Maybe they can all be in the same cattle car”. I mean we gave them seats at the table didn’t we?
Republicans that spoke at the DNC
Stephanie Grisham - White House Press Secretary (2019-2020)
Ana Navarro - Political commentator/talk show host
John Giles - Mayor of Mesa, Arizona (2014-present)
Olivia Troye - Former Trump administration official
Geoff Duncan - Lieutenant Governor of Georgia (2019-2023)
Adam Kinzinger - U.S. Representative from Illinois (2011-2023)

But elected Democrats that were Palestinian and were part of the uncommitted delegates that said if they were allowed to speak would support Kamala were not allowed to that table.
We sure reached out to them and gave them a seat.

It's not as if they stayed home. Over half threw away their vote, another 20+% actually voted for the rapist. And you want to blame the convention? When the other side has treated Muslims like animals? I see you have no problem bashing bibi and I agree with you there but you make ZERO mention of what's on the other side in terms of leadership. The uncomfortable truth is hamas is the elected government and will never agree to a ceasefire that doesn't keep them in charge. It appears the Muslim community must be fine with that given the way they voted.

I'm saying what seat did we give them at the table!? None!. What did we say we would do to help assuage their concerns? The same thing that is going on now. "We will continue to work towards ending this we while give Israel 12.5 billion in military aid and 5.7 billion for missile defense in just 2024." When they had friends and family being bombed and killed and made homeless what did we say we would do for them? Nothing. Israel would just keep killing their friends and family while we funded them and we would keep talking about working towards stopping the war. We would change nothing and,,,,,,, we wouldn't even give them a voice in our party. Not even our elected Democrats. We had an Israeli American family who's son was a hostage of hamas speak at the DNC and rightfully so. We didn't have a single Palestinian American speak. Not Michigan congresswoman Rashida Tlaib , not any of the Uncommitted elected Democrats, not any Palestinian American at all. We pretty much just told them to fuck right the hell off and by the way we also expect your votes. For them, what would change? Was Harris giving any kind of plan to stop the war or even put the full pressure on Israel that the US can do with what? 18 billion in aid? Was Harris saying anything that would make someone think that the status quo that has been around since the 70's where we just give money to Israel and they continue to do what they have been doing would change? And yes, I made zero mention of hamas, you know why? My GOVERNMENT does not give 18 billion to them. My GOVERNMENT does not give them access to the highest military hardware out there. And there was not a single candidate that ran that said they wanted to support hamas. This conversation was about the election and people that did not vote at all or like we wanted and last I checked hamas was not part of our election. Everyone in America should have voted for Harris but they didn't but don't act like we gave the Palestinian Americans anything other than the cold shoulder in this election. And last, yes, I think a lot of Palestinians would be happier with the war ending and hamas staying in charge as shitty as that would be. At least they wouldnt be where they are now. Homeless, hungry, thirsty, maimed, wounded and dead. Or are you going to show me how things have been better for them for the last year? In the end I guess it comes down to $18 billion reasons why they thought Harris wasn't going to do anything. But hey, vote for us.

Personally I think you ought to rethink what you said and maybe rephrase it a bit.
Just to add, the title is

Israel is not as innocent as we would like to believe, Netanyahu is facing the ICC too.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-kc-applications-arrest-warrants-situation-state

And this whole thing about Israel trying to be friends with Russia despite Russia arming the Houthis and allied to Iran will need an answer by us. I think cutting aid should be on the table over that too. Let's stop pretending this is not an issue. We're putting another country in front of Americans.

Our leaders were unceasing in working toward a ceasefire and release of hostages.

Instead, they voted for a guy who promised to let Netanyahu do whatever he wants in Gaza.

from Trump to Netanyahu.

For those that translate that to "stop the war"... they will be mistaken.

For the rest of us who translate that to "actually DO the genocide"... all we can do is protest and cry.

Not much more he can do to Gaza now except bulldoze the ruins along with the corpses of children, civilians, Hamas. And of course ethnically cleanse the whole Strip. It's already done in the north, with the whole world watching. They will not be allowed to return.

I was reading today that Gaza smells like corpses. The smell is everywhere.

So what's Trump gonna do again?

I'll tell you something unpopular. People can blame the Muslims and Palestinians all they want. They voted their conscience and it didn't even make a difference. But they are being scapegoated and that's par for the course.

Something else too to ponder is the dissonance between working hard for a ceasefire while providing thousands of 2000 lb bombs and never conditioning funding or supply of weapons to even the basics of international or humanitarian law.

Perhaps when we find out the death toll is in the hundreds of thousands, not tens, we will all grow a conscience but it will be too late to save Palestinians. It's too late already.

It's as if they didn't consult their conscience before they voted it.

so for them that's their conscience.

We should just be honest and stop with the fake concern over Gaza.

If they had real concern over Gaza they would untie in support of 2 states and get rid of the extremists.

but to pretend that 'Our leaders were unceasing in working toward a ceasefire and release of hostages' while sending arms to one side is disingenuous at best.

They voted for a guy who promised Netanyahu carte blanche and whose son-in-law, Kushner, can't wait to develop the Gaza Strip into a Middle Eastern version of the French Riviera. That would require deporting the Palestinian population, of course. To God knows where. But deportation seems to be very popular in our Brave New World.

The vote for Trump will produce tragic results, here and around the world. And our own citizens (not the fire-brand ideologues) will be winking and blinking in disbelief as their own lives are diminished and ruined.

This Is The House That Ignorance Built. There's a reason Donald Trump said he loved his uneducated, devotion-blinded supporters.

Because in this New World, all things are possible for those who hold the levers of power.

how to lose the Jewish vote, not just the Muslims.

Look, I know how difficult and complicated this issue is. The election is over. The Muslims made their choices.

Now, comes Trump. Maybe he'll do nothing against the Muslims. The last time I stood with them and lost white male friends.

If the worst happens again, I won't donate a dime or lift a finger for them.

Netanyahu is Trump's friend, and he purposely put us in a bind. But the Muslims made a statement in this election, and now it's my turn.

I can't tell you how pissed off I am.

If/when Trump decides to ban individuals from predominantly Muslim counties from coming into the US or cancels visas and deports people from those counties, I won't be happy. But...when Middle-Eastern-Americans complain, I'm going to tell them to call Jill Stein. Because I can promise you Jill Stein doesn't give a fuck.

These are people who have lost many family members in this war. The Moslems
are very vulnerable now in the US, for us to turn on them in anger goes against our
democratic values. To turn against them now, empowers the the Trump dystopia
where we turn against each other. That is exactly what Trump wants and how
autocracy wins by dividing and conquering.

I'm not pissed at the Muslim Americans because of their race. I've supported them as a community since 9/11.

I'm ambivalent to their coming plight. But I will enjoy seeing how they deal with their new friend.

Kicked out of the little remaining homeland that has not yet been stolen?

I see.

Speaking of ambivalence, there has been plenty of that for 13 months. Enough to allow a genocide and recently ethnic cleansing too. We now see the result.

Very few here want to acknowledge that white elephant of cause and effect. It's much easier and satisfying to blame the Muslims and engage in schadenfreud of what's coming to "them". I see that on this thread and I find that sad and heartbreaking.

Something that is lost on people who habitually devalue the term to a mere generic pejorative.

Fuck their death to America bullshit.

They wants it, they gets it.

Your enemy is the dominant culture/hegemony; not marginalized people.

There are millions of white Christian people who f*cked you over with a Jesus hard-on. You’ll tolerate that, but the Muslim suicide bombers ruined your election? Bullshit. How come you don’t have a problem with the white people that betrayed you? They’re the ones who could have made a difference. The ones so disengaged in their privilege that they might as well be anesthetized.

For fuck’s sake. I knew the right-wing was deplorable, but this?! 🤮

Who do you think the Republicans consist of?

I got no love for Charlottesville in Birkenstocks that are supposedly allies either.

Nor have I ever displayed a bit of patience for the slaves of avarice that call themselves socially liberal but fiscally conservative that shiv us for a buck.

That doesn't get their new footpads grace.
Nope, in fact it is efficient to pick off the weakest parts.

I'm taking it very directly personally, the political suicide bombers are the subject at hand.
When you start your white traitors, deserters, and enemies thread I'm sure I will have something to add.

Last edited Sat Nov 9, 2024, 05:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe I didn't make clear that my reply was sarcastic.

or our values. LGBTQ rights and women's rights. If you want to be in a coalition as broad as the Democratic Party, you need to make some concessions. We can never win an election when the Racists and Bigots vote against, and a large portion of their victims do too.

I'm sorry to say, some people have to learn the hard way.

Joe was caught between an obligation to an ally and a humanitarian crisis. Not a winning situation when our “ally” was working to destroy any peace plans.

hamas agreed to any ceasefire or peace plan. I see you have plenty of blame to throw in bibi's face but none to the Palestinians themselves - those that made a terrorist organization their leader who now refuse any deal that doesn't keep them in power.

I think they are simply evil with no thought of right or wrong. I wasn't even talking about bibi, but rather the choice Biden had to make as the President of the US. Often not an easy position in world politics where very little is black and white.

so you can take those words out of my mouth. I said you have plenty of blame on one side and NONE on the other and wanted to know why. Biden was supporting an ally.

I was commenting on the no win situation that Joe Biden was caught in. I have done my best to stay out of the numerous discussions on DU regarding the situation in the Middle East. Most conversations, even here on DU, have been emotionally driven with little to no chance of reaching any kind of understanding.

responsible for there being no ceasefire. Not even close to reality. Hamas refuses anything that doesn't leave them in power which is never going to happen and they have nobody to blame but themselves.

They elected started a war. I'm sure there were plenty of civilian children in Japan and Germany that suffered due to the action of their leaders, that doesn't mean you don't fight them. That's war.

And now they've alienated those who gave a crap. Brilliant strategy. Now even fewer care. Hope the hissy fit was worth it.

Not to mention Hamas attacked Israel with a brutal, murderous attack on civilians including children. That attack killed a higher percent of Israelis than the percent of Americans killed. They knew the price would be extremely high and put everyone in Gaza at risk.

Biden understood this very well when he implicitly compared the attack to 911 and expressed hope Israel would avoid our mistake. It was within weeks that Gaza was in ruins and tens of thousands of people were dead, more wounded, and food very low leading to starvation.

Even had we followed the Leahy act and cut aid, it likely would have not had a big effect on the election. Still more than 40000 Palestinians would have been killed. Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis are all terrorists. Biden sincerely did all he could to avoid a regional war and get a ceasefire.

It would be impossible to overstate the pain, anger and rage of Palestinians here. Many lost innocent family members. The myth that the US can do anything leads them to blame our in power leaders for not being able to prevent what happened.

Even had Biden used the Leahy Act and had the US vote against Israel in the UN, not enough would have happened to secure the votes of Muslim Americans and far left allies. Neither of these actions would have changed much in Gaza. Politically, Biden would have lost even more Evangelical vote.

There is no way Biden would NOT have led the coalition that twice helped Israel mostly avoid the 2 Iranian attacks.

Did somebody hit their head on something? I don't understand. My motive here is only to understand, not to argue with you.

While you're looking at the ruins, you might see the faint traces of all those red lines that were crossed and buried under the corpses.

or directly for a rapist help the Palestinians?

Of course you and I know it won't. I'm very saddened about that, I assume you are too. Being a Democrat and liberal, you would value justice, fairness, human rights and the right to self-determination.

The right question imo would be "what made the Arabs/Muslims act irrationally and turn against their own self-preservation and interest?

I mean it's a totally self-defeating action. Are they just stupid or something? Or could it be that something so horrible was allowed to be done to them that they not only cannot think rationally but are willing to take such a gamble in the hopes that ANYTHING would be better than what they got so far.

What would we do in their shoes might be the second correct question.

Are you excusing people whose irrational actions resulted in irreparable harm to the rest of Americans and the world?

...I am beginning to understand the role of the irrational when you expend so much effort to rationalize the inexcusable.

a feeling of being "failed" by someone on what is going on in Gaza, they need to fucking look at fucking HAMAS.

In what depraved thinking were the actions of October 7th EVER okay?

I am not saying that Israel's response was moral. BUT ALL HAMAS HAD TO DO - ALL PALESTINIANS HAD TO DO - was RETURN THE HOSTAGES ALIVE - AND SUBMIT THE RAPISTS AND MURDERERS TO JUSTICE.

Israel would have had ZERO grounds for their assault had they done that. The hostages and those brutally raped, mutilated, tortured and murdered, were INNOCENT - at least of any crime warranting how they were extrajudicially punished by THE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT - AKA HAMA.

And just what the FUCK was America and BIDEN supposed to do about it? We were put in a BOX. By the PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT, AKA HAMAS.

If Muslim-Americans want to blame someone, that's where they need to look. Instead, they were sheep voting for the wolf.

Are they surprised that after they have sown the wind, they shall reap the whirlwind?

Meanwhile:
Gaza’s top Islamic scholar issues fatwa criticizing 7 October attack
The most prominent Islamic scholar in Gaza has issued a rare, powerful fatwa condemning Hamas’s 7 October 2023 attack on Israel, which triggered the devastating war in the Palestinian territory.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4vw1l8xvdo

That's not a value judgment. It's a fact.

We all make decisions. That was the decision of Biden and the DNC. You have to live with your decisions.

or LGBTQ or voting rights, is what you’re saying.

Well fuck them then. They had no problem throwing everyone else under the bus so fuck them.

This was a momumental example of "cutting off one's nose, to spite one's face."

They will need allies quite soon. They can look elsewhere as far as I am concerned.

Voting on a worthless third party candidate who would never win. A vote for the third party narcissist is a vote for the orange lard who instilled a Muslim ban, whose party had been trashing Muslims for decades.


That had fucked up Michigan for us.

close, which is unbelievable against that nut Kari Lake.

I hope their protest vote meets expectations.

It may be the last one they send before being shipped off somewhere.

That was the only Stein advertising I saw. This was in MTG’s district. I guess they were trying to peel off water Harris votes come from there.

There's a misconception that Muslim voters are impoverished refugees. If they're voting, they are U.S. citizens. They have businesses. They're doctors and lawyers. They send their kids to expensive private schools. They were wealthy and privileged in their countries of origin, and they came to the U.S. to make money.

Their social and religious beliefs make them natural allies of the Republican Party.

They won't be deported. They are citizens. They will rise in the ranks of the Republican Party,

There will be a travel Ban.

If Muslims hue so closely to Republican doctrine, why did the Republicans get so few votes. The Muslim vote didn't go to Trump. It went to Stein.

By the way, if they're so well off and are Doctors and such, and they're so interested in Gaza. no one is stopping them from "joining the fight."

Low income
33% of American Muslims have a household income of $30,000 or less, compared to 26% of the general public.

Income distribution
20% of American Muslims have a household income of $100,000 or more, similar to other groups except Jewish Americans (44%).

Race
Black Muslims are more likely to have low income than white and Asian Muslims.

Education
46% of American Muslims have a college degree or higher, similar to other groups except Jewish Americans (60

The two groups are very different.

Kind of dovetails with your prior post. That group is Arab Christians. Between 60-75% of Arabs Americans are Christian. Maronites from Lebanon, Chaldeans from Iraq and Copts from Syria and Egypt. All were chased out of the ME by their Muslim "friends". They made up the first wave of Arab immigration to the US in the late 19th and 20th centuries.

The second and third waves of Arab immigration came from Africa and South Asia, and are predominantly Muslim. Almost 60% are first gen Americans. They come from a myriad of countries, Pakistan, India, Iran and Afghanistan are the most common origins.

Israelis include Muslims, Hindus, Christians, and others. Many of them have been there forever.

You didn't answer the question that I asked. If Muslims are so close to Republicans, why did they vote Stein instead of Trump?

Then there's this, from 2020 exit polls, rendering your argument absurd. Biden 86%, Trump 6%. Muslims don't seem to be too Republican leaning to me.

https://emgageusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Muslim-Voters-Survey-Memo-2.pdf

American Black Muslims are very, very different from Muslim immigrants.

If your data is correct, then almost 70% of Muslims voted against the Democrat, allowing Trump to be elected. That's even higher than the percent of white men who voted against Harris. Sounds pretty Trumpy to me.

And, no data from 2020 renders any opinion about 2024 absurd. A lot has changed in four years.

If the Muslim culture is conducive to voting Republican, why did Muslim's, for decades, vote 10 to 1 for the Democrat?

And if they're so "Trumpy", why didn't they vote for Trump. They voted for Stein.

Please, you're twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to make a point that doesn't exist.

It's just so simple. Muslims voted for Stein as a protest vote because of the US government's support for Israel. Biden, and then Harris, had to choose between abandoning an ally or trying to work for a cease fire. Netanyahu helped elect Trump with his actions, as well as keep himself in power and out of jail. The Muslims helped elect Trump by voting 3rd party. The American Muslims sent a message, loud and clear. I heard it.

Maybe Trump won't go after their community with bans and deportation (yes, I'm sure there are more than a few undocumented in Dearborn). When that day comes, and they look for support, they'll hear my message loud and clear.

You're on your own.

Muslim Americans are historically conservative, they tend to be libertarian, patriarchal and socially conservative. After 9/11, they were supportive at first, but that changed.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/muslims-helped-elect-george-w-213310754.html

After Bush responded to 9/11 by taking on al Queda and deposing Saddam. Prior to 2000 they were mostly reliable Republicans, but they waffled a bit.

Interestingly, the publisher of the Arab American News said that Bush was quite popular, and Bush himself told the publisher (Osama Siblani) that he would finish the job in Iraq that his father started¹. Siblani later published an endorsement for Bush.

¹ American Islam: The Struggle for the Soul of a Religion, Paul M. Barrett

Many Jewish people are well off, what stopped them from voting for orange rapist or supporting the useless turd party candidate? The vast majority supported Kamala.

Many well off educated people support the Dem party.

They should make everyone's votes public for organizing/support/oppression purposes.

and claims its a national security issue/foreign enemies bs. And I have little faith if "the system" to stop him.

that's the real reason for how they voted.

The one's that voted for Harris are the ones actually concerned about things like Gaza and the Muslim ban. They also thought of others like the Haitians that have been attacked by Trump.

my OP does not suggest it's not a moral outrage.

What my OP declares is that I don't much care what their plight is. I will not support a Muslim Ban, but I won't raise my voice in opposition, either.

I figure this is more the responsibility for Jill Stein and I wouldn't want to usurp her authority.

There are millions of white Christians who failed this country. Yours is a selective outrage.

You won’t support a Muslim ban, but you won’t oppose it either. That is to say, you support Muslim bans.

This is the worst of what DU has to offer. I’m disgusted to see it here.

I protested and opposed the last Muslim Ban. But referring to President Biden as "Genocide Joe" made this a bridge too far for me. That was disgusting. Then the vote proved that the entire Muslim community was on board with this sentiment. Let's get something straight, I acknowledge that they have a right to their opinion. I also have a right to mine. When Muslims are looking for allies when Trump comes down on them, my reply is "I don't care."

I don't know how more explicit I can make this.

And you’re still not talking about the white people who could have voted for Harris in droves—had they not slept thru an election in blankets of privilege.

that's Trump's base. I just don't expect a "white people" travel ban

I do expect that the people we stuck our necks out for to stand with us.

Now, they can pound sand when they need help.

Millions of white Christian people didn’t vote for Harris, either. They’re ungrateful and disloyal, too. After all, we stuck our necks out to secure their safety, health and prosperity. You want to win elections? Start with the entitled and profoundly ignorant white people.

And why were white woman abandoning the Democratic Party? We stuck our necks out for them, too. Are we to support policies that hurt them further, or not be bothered by their suppression and persecution? I demand satisfaction and obedience. They owe it and I earned it. (Extending the absurdity to accentuate this line of non-thinking.)

what part of "I don't care" what policies are trained onto Muslim Americans. I don't encourage it, but I will not get involved. Think of it this way, the next time they need support from me, I'm voting 3rd party.

Exactly. They want to get revenge against Democrats.

They could say the same.

Again, there were millions of votes in the white community to win this election handily — and who are we focused on? Do people not see the entitlement in expecting/requiring Muslim votes but not white Christian votes?

land. They knew Trump would be disastrous. White Christians don't care about Gazs.

Priority of triage for me isn't with the political suicide bombers or the wannabe white useful idiots and racist machismo set either.

Time and resources are not infinite.

Let's see how that plays out for you!

My guess: You screwed yourselves.

I am a white collar upper middle class straight male. I have been fighting for a voting for the rights of others for my entire adult life. I have voted for gay rights. Trans rights. Women’s rights. The rights immigrants. The rights of minorities. The rights of Muslims. On and on.

It makes it tough. I’ll continue to fight for those same groups rights. But Jesus is it going to be hard not tell people to STFU when they start complaining about the awful things Trump is inflicting on them.

I want my union 'friends' who voted for him to whine about it to him, not me, not their union leaders.

absolutley

So IMO people shouldn't go after other groups especially if their own group isn't in order.

I do realize lots of us posting on this thread are in varying degrees of marginalized groups.

I'm Jewish and I am not going to attack Muslims. I feel this thread is very simplistic and also divisive.

That said, this is a discussion board and people have the right to discuss and voice their opinions.

next to Dearborn MI. My own city is now more diverse too. They said their vote was a warning. Now they will be sorry.

In fact, they are the mainstream of the problem but were already accounted for as such and only have a minority as allies in the first place.

it looks like there are quite of few who disagree with you.

As for whites, not all white people are racists, but almost all racists are white. I don't expect them to vote for us if they are racists.

It just burns my ass that the victims that Democrats try protecting them from vote against us. Fine. Next Muslim Ban you're on your own.

Awad said in part, "The people of Gaza only decided to break the siege the walls of the concentration camp on October 7. Yes, I was happy to see people breaking the siege and throwing down the shackles of their own land and walk free into their own land that they were not allowed to walk in. And yes, the people of Gaza have the right to self-defense, have the right to defend themselves, and yes, Israel as an occupying power does not have that right to self-defense."

CAIR obviously has an agenda and it's to make it seem like the muslim vote is gettable by adopting Stein's political positions. A truly delusional take on electoral politics.