straight white protestant man, she would have won.

Racism and sexism decided this election.

Protestant hasn't mattered since JFK. Just look at SCOTUS. It's like a college of fucking Cardinals. No, he polled abysmally. Harris didn't change that much. Turns out the polls many here poo pooed, me included, weren't wrong after all. But why did they poll so badly given policies that actually brought down inflation and helped average people? Honestly, I was with you a week ago. But after much thought, I don't think that's the whole issue. Certainly not the root problem.

Granted, being a minority female in a neanderthal country didn't help. But that's not the whole story. If you convince people you care and can help their wallets, many will look past all that. Root problem is, we're not convincing them. Trump is. As completely stupid as that sounds on its face, that's where we are.

Didn't use to be like that. I remember when Democrats were synonymous with the working class. With the masses. Repukes were the inverse. It was true, accurate, but somehow we lost that. Fux News is one cause, but still, we ceded it to the Repukes without a fight. Now, even though our policies STILL actually help average people no matter their demographic, we look like a bunch of college professors. Unconvincing. While I personally don't have a problem with that, the average Joe Schmo apparently does. If we can convince them we will help on kitchen table issues, if we have the average person's back, I think the rest of the bullshit Fux News, et. al. spews will pale in comparison in their minds.

In short, we don't message to the masses worth a shit. Haven't in ages.

That's the message you guys are putting out.

and gets 50% of the voters to ignore the lying.

No 'working class' appeals will overcome that. Democrats are the party that supports policies that help the working class, and Trump lies to the working class. Apparently some in the working class (that is, the WHITE working class) prefer the lies.

I watched Harris's campaign and I didn't see any college professors on stage with her. I didn't see any elitest, out of touch talk.

What I DID see was a campaign built on reasonable plans that might actually work, compared to Trump's carnival barker act.

So what exactly are we supposed to do differently? Nominate a carnival barker who bellows lies?

I just don't think "lie" is what was meant.

But yeah, I'm definitely tired of all the "how Democrats did it wrong" commentary that ignores all the other factors involved.

Tell them, in no uncertain terms, who their friends actually are and who they aren't. Back it up with facts. Be bold. Be aggressive. Be inflammatory. We use to do that...a lot. I'm old enough to remember. It was still working in the 90's, 2 decades after Repukes went all "Southern Strategy." For some strange reason, we lost our roots and went "cerebral". I don't mind it but most common folks don't get it and are thus easily lead away by shiny, culture war bullshit.

Other than Bernie Sanders, who among those leading the Dem caucus is pounding away on the fact that, for all practical purposes, working class wages have been stagnant since Ford? Top earners have seen significant income growth, and in a capitalistic society, that's fine, as long as that growth applies to everyone. It's not and we don't talk about that nearly enough. Maybe Dems are afraid to piss off some of their high income donors? Who knows. Fact is, we're pathetic in that regard compared to our political ancestors. Hell, we're pathetic compared to Repukes and for them it's a complete lie.

that equally rewards everyone capitalism? Pretty sure that’s why Bernie calls himself a socialist. Our problem is that we’ve let Republicans define that word in a very negative way. Soviet or Chinese socialism is indeed an awful oppressive and unjust system. But we need to reclaim the shared rewards system of work in a positive manner. Because what people heard from our side was not that people Tha worked the most got rewarded the most, but that everyone regardless of their efforts would be taken care of. Most Americans actually don’t believe in that. They want to decide themselves what the ground rules are, and who receives what. In a capitalist society volunteerism and donating to causes and people creates community, society, and agency to those that do these things.

They fed us this "economic insecurity" line last time trump won. And we twisted ourselves in knots over it. And then trump trashed the economy and they continued to be just fine with him.

Please tell me people aren't going to buy that again.

Yes. I have always said our messaging was crap. And we can definitely improve it. But that's not what lost the election. What lost the election was that we failed to recognize the racism and sexism among Democrats and people we consider Democratic allies.

It wasn't economic insecurity then, and it isn't now.

We kept on keeping on. Same old stuff. Do the hard work but take no credit for it. No victory laps and certainly no messaging to that effect. It didn't work in 2016. It didn't work in 2024. Covid was the wildcard in 2020.

non male (but never both) should be our nominee? How about just to be sure we play it safe and only nominate white males?

That seems to be the logical outcome of 'it was racism and misogyny', no?

Can you imagine more qualified candidates than Hillary and Kamala? I can't. And they lost. They simply weren't able to get the same numbers of Democratic votes that Joe did. Can you guess why? Because WITHIN OUR PARTY and within our ally groups there are racists and sexists. I don't like it. You don't like it. But it is a fact. The numbers don't lie.

I dream of seeing a woman inaugurated before I die. But have to put that dream aside. Because if we are ever able to have another election, I can't have my heart broken like I did when we ran those two amazing women against the stupider version of Jabba the Hutt.

For at least the foreseeable future, we need to run middle-aged, white, straight, protestant males.

or Nicki Haley, the nonentity. Bobo, and Empty Green. Terrifying.

I think the issue is that neither were tested in a primary Kamala dropped out of the primary before it even began and was basically picked by Biden for reasons other than her ability to win an election.

A fact that came back to bite us. We've won plenty of presidential elections when we had a battle tested nominee. Not one that was appointed or anointed.

Try finding that twice in a lifetime.

I think of Hakeem and I hate what I'm saying. But I believe it's true.

I have been afraid to say it, glad you did. I am going to say another "unacceptable" thing as well, it would help if the candidate were nice looking. People are shallow, that would definitely be another leg up on JD (barf).

But I’m… hopeful? Doesn’t seem like the right word but should things like the inane cuts to social security based on the first or last digit of social security numbers actually go through A LOT of Republicans who rely on it for retirement or disability will find out what real economic insecurity means.

I hate it, but I don't disagree.

but a younger Joe Biden that ran as good as Kamala did would have won.

I used to think we had to be careful about that because the Right had gotten so extreme, but we need a far more populist, and even more left, candidate, that's a bit more removed from the mess we have had since 2016.

but if voters aren't smart enough to understand that fucking toenail fungus is better than a rapist, fascist russian agent there is no hope no matter what or who is messaging.

They thought expanded suffrage, such as it was back then, was suicide for the same reasons you bring up. The Republic was doomed to eventually fall to some populist megalomaniac who appealed to the morons on the left tail. They weren't wrong, but that's the system we've got. Bernie is my Senator. Though I don't agree with everything he advocates, I do greatly appreciate his fire and ability to message. He's far better at that on a bad day than my other Senator, Peter Welch. He messages in a way that cuts through the bullshit issues Fux News deals in. Cut some of the socialist stuff and refocus it on core, economic issues, along with true freedom, i.e. reproductive freedom for one, and I think you've got a message that will get through to even the dumb ones. Worked for Andy Beshear in an incredibly red state.

Many of the hispanics that voted for Trump felt like the Democrats let them down. People are buying into cynical views of Democrats, as only using them to get votes without delivering. It also doesn't help that Democrats take money from big corporations / billionaires.

Please tell me what the republicans have done for the working class.

Dems insisted, to the faces of those struggling the most, that they were just wrong. "You're wrong, you may be poor but the economy is better than it has ever been."

Reps said "You're poor, we acknowledge that, we'll help you".

Granted, the Reps were lying outright, Harris was our best chance, but they ACKNOWLEDGED the poor. Dems dismissed them. And that doomed us.

Don’t say gay , don’t teach black history because white children will feel bad and on and on.
Joe Biden stood with the auto workers , trump demeaned them, Biden tried to forgive student loans and the republican appointed judges put a stop to most of it. The economy is not the greatest because of inflation and we’re all feeling it. But putting Tariffs on foreign goods will make it a hell of a lot worse. I am not a 1 issue voter , I care enough about my country to not put a group of people who
Should not be allowed to run a compost heap in charge of the economy ,the military, social programs, infrastructure and the common good. They are not equipped to fix our problems so what is this they understand the working class , they don’t understand anything and they don’t give a damn about you you are just a useful tool.

Rep messaging is simple; "Dems think you're a stupid rube". Hell, look at this thread! Got a bunch of people saying "You're a stupid, ignorant, uneducated, uncultured rube if you voted for trump!"

The Reps know what they're doing. They're not incompetent; up until Trump they were career politicians. Their entire job was inciting people to vote for them. But Trump forced their hands and they had to go extremist, because if they didn't, they were left on the outs.

And here we are, still insisting that "If you vote Rep, you're an 'Ism!'" Doesn't matter what 'Ism", you just are because you vote Trump. You're Garbage. You're Deplorable. You're unworthy of respect, dignity or significance.


Reps took that and ran with it. And we gave them every fuggin' bullet to fire at us. And now that we've reaped what we have sown, we're infighting.

We. Were. Wrong. And we have to be better. We need to be better.

The republicans haven’t done anything for anyone but the rich. Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana are dead last in everything but they keep voting for republicans. I wonder why? Scratch the bullshit about economics and the answer is very clear.

I'm not doing your research for you.

What is the ratio?

TSF so that they will finally abandon republicans and vote for democrats, why hasn’t that happened in southern states?

They are dead last in so many economic measurements - education, teenage pregnancy, death, etc., - ruled by republicans for decades (deep red), yet continue to vote republican.

I’m not claiming I know but answering that question could provide a path.

Religion, mostly.

There was Alabama town that elected a black mayor and the county wouldn’t seat him. Also black population of Alabama is approximately 27% . You’re reaching .

a distinct messaging disadvantage as the rethugs dominate the social media space with Musk's "X", formeerly "Twitter", trump's "Truth Social", "Ebay" videos and other magat outlets. There's also the airwaves with FOX, OANN, NewsMax, CNN now, CHristian Broadcast and other smaller outlets, and all the printed magat outlets.

We have nothing to match that and MSNBC's afternoon block starting with Nicole Wallace's show is no match for all that right-leaning firepower that is hammering voter ears constantly with magat messaging 24/7.

The news yesterday that Comcast is about to spin off MSNBC is not good for us center-left/progressive left voters, and unless a billionaire like Soros or Bloomberg steps up to acqhire MSNBC Muck or some other magat billionaire will and change it's programming slant rightward.

We're not in good shape and getting worse as the rethugs have a formula now to flood the swing state white working class and non-cillege educated voter ears where the critical EC votes are with all that firepower and the money needed to do it, and they can always win presidential cycles.

It just happened. They elected a fascist.

We all have to look the fuck out come Jan. 20, 2025 as the dictator with absolute immunity for 'official acta', thanks corrupt SCOTUS 6, can now round-up, imprison, deport or even kill anyone desired with impunity.

Until we can match them it's.......SMH.

Harris and Waltz speeches and debates etc. that yes the economy is doing well post pandemic But we still have a lot to do. People are hurting and prices are high and we have a plan for that. Instead they chose to listen to "I'm going to lower energy prices by half" or everything was cheaper when I was president. How does praising Musk for his great handling of union workers or his utter hatred for overtime pay. The man has done absolutely nothing for "working class people" and I dare you to show me one.

for the poor. Trump didn't. Her problem was she wasn't a white man.

and convincing people that Democrats have let them down.

When they are selfish and mean spirited, when they don’t want to think and learn . Why would anyone
Send Marjorie green and Lauren Bobert to congress. They are okay with disgraceful behavior and a boat load of crazy.

Republicans target some group; Democrats defend.group under attack; Republicans say Democrats only care about identify politics.

Focusing on identity works better for them.

The #92Percent of black women, many in the working class who voted, knocked on doors, did post cards, etc etc.?

You need to start with white women. They didn't listen to black women and here we are.

They consistently vote to punish black women. Figure them out and check back in after the 2026 midterms.

So go get your white women and get them to stop punching down at black women.

Yeah - I'm blaming them. They voted overwhelmingly for rapists and convicts - you need to fix that group. Its going to be an uphill battle.

Good luck with that.

My mom and grandmother, lifelong Dems, voted for Trump not once but TWICE because they're hurting economically. They don't give a fuck about the "Isms" or the "ists", so why should we? Yes, the companies in charge of prices were gouging the average consumer, but the voters know that. They want the government to step in and intervene, but neither party does.

I know, "Bothsiderism" but we have a unique opportunity to win back the working class and those who have been screwed by predatory pricing, yet we continually fail to do so, majority or not.

Black women have carried this weight for too long.

Like I said - don't ask us for shit the next four years. We've got extended families and circles of friends to take care of.


We are here because our grandmothers survived the Jim Crow dystopia. We know how to survive. Even when white women punch down at us.

They're just aren't enough votes.

You really think you are going to get a bunch of white women wearing "he can grab my pussy anytime" t shirts to get souls to the polls?

*smirk* Good luck with that Make sure it doesn't interfere with the Klan rally or proud boys women auxiliary luncheon.

Look you can have everything you all had up until 1964.

But - that means you have to leave us out. And if you leave us out - you have to have race based taxes.

I'm not paying taxes for a bunch of racists to have Medicare for All White People - and none for black Americans. And you can't get them.on board with that - unless you leave us out. That's where their welfare queen bullshit comes from.

We aren't doing separate but equal - and thieving from Gen X and younger black folks like your great grandparents did to ours.

We are not our grandparents. This isn't going to end in the Utopia you think it is. It won't.

So this IS FAFO2024 - and a lot of people are going to get hurt.

I'm not the one who set America on fire. But I'm not going to help you put it out.

You're smart - you can figure it out.

We survived until 1964 by going behind the back of America. We don't need the system. White America does. Its designed for them - they need to figure this out . . . and you can't have our money to do it.

messaging was better. It was all lies all hatred all insulting. Sorry, if you think Democratic messaging was bad it's because you were not listening or you believed the lies. No ism here just gullibility or you agree the Republicans platform there is no other reason to vote trump.

Gave the GOP a pass for leaning into white resentment, and making shit up about transgender people, Latinos, and immigrants.

kacekwl - It's almost like the GOP can do nothing wrong.

Guess its okay when its women like me getting affected by their choices and condescension.

OP wholly ignores that “identity politics” is driven by the GOP and Right Wing,.

The democrats and John McCain passed Obamacare. The republicans want to overturn it.
The democrats fought to increase the minimum wage, What have the republicans done for the poor and working class someone please give me a list ? I am ready to learn .

Kamala Harris didn't talk about "isms" or "ists" in her campaign. I watched her speeches and don't recall a single mention of racism or sexism or anything like that. I don't think she ever said the word "woke."

Trump accused Harris of those things. He dredged up an old video interview of Harris talking about prisoners having rights to gender-affirming care. Who knows when that interview took place. It wasn't part of her campaign.

Harris ran a campaign full of plans to help people. Her plans were reality-based. Trump ran a campaign full of blatant lies and absurd promises he can't possibly fulfill. He blamed everybody else for the economy except the real culprits - the Republicans.

People believe what they want to believe.

they voted for him because they love the racism and hatred he spews. They enjoy it when he explicitly threatens to harm people who aren't them.

Or, their preacher tells them to vote for him.

Those are generally the two reasons, hate and religion.

I'm related to and live among a lot of these people. It's racism and hate dressed up as religion.

They either voted racism or sexism...likely.

Or their misinformed, uneducated PERCEPTION of the economy.

Either way Americans voted for a rapist, felon. Sexist, piece of crap who lost manufacturing jobs and hurt farmers and other businesses with trade wars....

It's either the racism and sexism or the stupidity.

It was not the economy. We have the strongest economy in the world not that you would know that from the billionaire controlled main stream media, Russian controlled social media either thru bots or apartheid Clyde.

They voted for hate and lies.
This was not what the Democrats did wrong moment.

This is a what the fuck is wrong with our country moment

Wow.

I think OP can rest their case, now.

Ever hear the term tone deaf?

Most of them can't spell moron correctly.

Fuckface knows his audience. He keeps his speeches at a fourth grade level.

Not tone deaf.

Unemployment at historic lows.

Real wages up.

Middle class healthier economically than during trump years.

But people remember eggs were really expensive for three months and see pictures of eggs with high prices. Of course, MSM and social media don't mention the culling of millions of chickens because of avian fly.

MSM did not push the VP of Kroger admitting to a congressional committee that prices were higher and remained high longer than needed to account for supply chain issues.

The Republicans and their billionaire overlords control the medium and the message.

But if you saw the ads that were running in Iowa and heard what was spewing you would see the racism. They ran ads that said Kamala let in 50 million illegal immigrants... seriously over one million a month for the four year term. And there were no repercussions for those lies.

If the voters weren't racist and uneducated they would have heard "you weren't supposed to fact check me" and think, if you are worried about fact checking, then you must be lying.

It started with right wing radio and the end of the fairness doctrine.

and for the people around them is quite patronizing and out of touch. The economy has split, into being good for the top 20% and terrible for the bottom 80%, with it being extremely hard to impossible to live. So if you are part of the top 20%, you will not understand the plight of the bottom 80% unless you went out of your way to try to understand them.

That's a fact.

The spew that only the top 20% benefitted was a lie.

Also, some of us aren't privileged enough to just will away the isms, ics etc. which are our daily lived experiences. I'm happy we get to have a seat at the table through the Democratic party and not just tokenized.

People want to say that the economy drove the election result, but the result doesn’t make rational sense from any economic perspective. “Trump’s economy” prior to COVID was just the Obama/Biden recovery extended, which Trump had slowed through his tariffs; we suffered greater economic and human loss during COVID due to Trump’s mishandling of the pandemic; post-pandemic, America’s economy is the envy of the world; as for higher prices, yep, those hurt … but inflation has been brought under control without handicapping the economic recovery and, most importantly, Trump’s promised policies (tariffs, mass deportation, …) are projected to boost inflation rather than curb it.

It wan’t the economy but the overwhelming stupidity of voters unable or unwilling to pay even the merest attention to unissued and policies. (Putting aside those otherwise motivated.)

There are a lot of wealthy people that raised the rent on their tenants in the various buildings they own 50% in The Last 5 Years and then wonder why they would vote for Trump.

be specific

Now, Trump has proposed eliminating income tax on overtime pay.

Harris proposed the same thing shortly after but was beaten to the punch.

DON'T PEOPLE FUCKING REMEMBER ANYTHING?

So now he can point to those tax breaks, and it resonates with lower income Americans.

I'm not a fan, but you asked a question that can be answered objectively.

then when faced with an ACTUAL ISSUE he FUCKING FAILED BIGTIME

… for years of allowing Trump to claim credit for the Obama/Biden recovery. Obama made a passing comment about it, but he and others should have been out in the media for years shaming Trump for taking credit for walking into Obama’s booming economy.

Link to tweet

it really helped no one. Only the wealthy, who could meet the increased itemization threshold, benefited. A shell game. In fact, the changes in itemizing fucked just about everyone in places with state income taxes. The real intent was to punish higher state tax, blue states. The Child Tax Credit increase was a Covid era program initiated by Dems in the American Rescue Plan. Repukes lost their minds over it, but Dems pushed it through. Trump had no real choice but to sign it given the economic abyss we faced.

There....got your history accurate.

Eliminating income taxes on overtime would have minuscule impact on people's actual tax burden. If she had advocating eliminating the Trump tax cuts and rejiggering the tax brackets as Obama advocated, THAT would have a significant impact for working families. But, alas, we didn't go there.

The wealthy who met the increased itemization threshold would see no benefit from the doubled standard deduction. The main beneficiaries were tax filers with deductions below that threshold (i.e. lower income filers).

People were all giddy they got an extra $10 in their take home. Whoop dee doo!. The rich made out like bandits. Don't fall for Repuke talking points. They're bullshit.

A married couple's standard deduction in 2017 was $6500, which avoids $1300 in federal taxes when taken. In 2018, this tax reduction increased to $2500. An additional $1200 refund isn't "whoop dee doo" for a working-class family. This takes into account the tax bracket changes you are concerned with.

and their impact on your math. In 2017, pre Trump tax "cut", a family of 4, married filing jointly, got a 12,700 standard deduction and 16,200 in personal exemptions (4 x 4,050). 28,900 in total deductions.

Post Trump tax "cut", their standard deduction increased to 24,000 but personal / dependent exemptions were suspended until 2025. Apologies, but 28,900 is bigger than 24,000.

Changes in tax brackets lightened the load for some, increased it for others. Add the SALT deduction caps and no one in the working class demo can get anywhere near the 24,000 standard deduction hurdle to help lighten their load. Those in higher tax blue states were particularly impacted by the caps on state tax deductions. That was by design.

In short, it's only the very wealth who benefited significantly. Some in the low to middle income brackets got a little back, some had to pay more. A mixed bag, but certainly NOT a windfall for anyone who, by anyone's standards, isn't wealthy.

What about those TCJA child tax credits?

I never claimed that the TCJA benefitted ALL working-class families, that has already been demonstrated not to be true. The net benefit appears to be mixed but Republicans have done something they can point to.

A married couple's standard deduction plus personal exemptions in 2017 was $20,800, which avoids $2,080 in federal taxes when taken. This is the most conservative estimate using the 10% bracket but could actually be higher if you apply to the marginal rate.

In 2018, this tax reduction increased to $2500. So, the corrected savings is $420. This is still significant enough for a low or middle income couple to notice and remember, that's all. Democrats will need a better answer than saying this was merely a nothingburger.

In NJ - in my Borough - 89% of our property taxes we collect go to our stellar school system.

Constituents of mine - saved 10 years to buy their home. Make $113K a year as a Borough Public Works employee and County Daycare worker. Was able to give our working class a little break so their property taxes will only top out at approx 8K.

The SALT Cap implemented in the 2017 Tax Cut and Jobs scam hurt that working class family significantly.

Oh but JAG! They are rich.

Only if they live in Mississippi.

See they are only allowed to deduct 10K. So what about their state income tax?

But JAG! They are rich!

Dear Readers - the SALT Cap was punishment for those who chose Home Rule instead of going to Fed Gov with their hands out. It was designed to make that working class family of four pay property taxes twice.

But JAG! They're rich!!!!!

Wait until those sons of bitches cut the Department of Education. I suspect our kids in my district and New Jersey will be just fine.

We'll be fine.

But I relish the rich family of four in Mississippi having to actually pay the 8K a year to educate their kids in addition to
Public Works.

See - they are RICH! Let them eat cake. They better eat that shit up.

trump and in turn employers feel about overtime. Can't tax what you won't get.

It's perceptions we need to change. Reality we've got.

BTW inflation is way way down but the price of eggs is up because we have had a big
outbreak of Avian Flu and we are down something like 30 million birds and you just can’t
move chickens right back into their barns or farms until they are cleaned back up.