It worked well for Orange Julius Caesar as a lot of Americans bought it and a lot of GOP politicians are emulating the strategy and being elected.

I’m torn….

That an election was fraudulent rather than a huge number of our neighbors are obstinately ignorant, grossly propagandized, or just plain awful? My life experience makes me lean towards all of the latter.

...known for cheating has probably tried to cheat on the most important contest of his lifetime.

The Biden Administration, the Harris campaign, the MSM, etc etc

Yet ……… a bunch of people who post on a website somehow have it all figured on based on how they feel and their gut.

Last edited Sun Nov 17, 2024, 04:21 PM - Edit history (1)

and convicted of it in fact.

The antiquated Electoral College system, a legacy of slavery/the 3/5 compromise, makes it easy as cheaters just have to concentrate their efforts in the few swing states to get enough EC votes to win.

Easy peasy.

S-u-u-u-u-u-r-e trump stopped cheating and won all swing states legitimately.

for quite a long time. There is nothing surprising about the suggestion that they cheated (or tried to cheat) in this one. If there is a way to win dishonestly, they will find it.

Hey, that's how Democratic Underground started; when the Florida recounts were halted by a Supreme Court decision.

I know there certainly are other factors involved, but I have no doubt that there was cheating, voter suppression, and voter purges involved. I am also certain that nothing will be done about it, at least not in my lifetime.

Know this, whenever republicans accuse Democrats of cheating, you can be sure that THEY are cheating. They are the most obvious people on the planet and they keep getting away with it.

that the guy literally indicted by Jack Smith for conspiracy to steal the 2020 election could in any way have been involved in a conspiracy to steal the 2024 election.

(sarcasm intended).

I think conspiracy denial theorists have a deep psychological need to deny the unpleasant reality that some conspiracies actually exist. It's too scary for them.

So how did he get it so perfectly in 2024 that no one has noticed, except of course for a minority of people on a liberal website?

are so utterly humiliating, render us an international pariah, and constitute an embarrassment to our country and the people in it that we shall never recover from, at least in my lifetime.

They are part of the election system here. We'll get to see the results. I've seen the results from a few elections past. They always confirm the original counts very closely. So closely that no change large enough to change the outcome has occurred.

Here, random precincts in random counties are selected to do a paper ballot hand count as part of that audit. Those, too, were shown to be almost exactly what the original count showed. No difference large enough to change anything.

I don't know about your state. I don't know about any of the swing states. I suspect they all have a system to check elections for accuracy after the election. So, what are they finding in your state or other states? I don't know. Look into it.

That is evidence. Find some that shows a particular state has wide discrepancies in vote counts. That's what Trump claimed in 2020. Audits showed that he was wrong. So, go look at the audits, or petition a recount or audit and pay the costs. You can check with any state's Election authority to find out how that works.

And that is what is asked, yes ?

Can you elaborate?

But I still don't know what you mean by "factional." Did you mean "fictional?"

I can only respond usefully to questions I can understand.

poster bigtree will be happy if you are responding to him, he is a "facts" person.

And again thank you for pointing out the wrong word usage of "factional" should of been factual, sorry for insulting your intelligence.

Did you not notice that.?

Still, of course I deal in facts. Facts are truth. Only when facts are available can anyone make any sense about anything. Don't you agree?

So, by "factional: you meant "factual?" Those two words have very different definitions. Like I said, I can only respond to things if I understand what you are trying to say.

Please go look up "factional" and "factual." Then, tell me which one you meant to use.

That's the question, isn't it. And that requires evidence of some sort.

Without evidence, suspicion cannot be turned into fact.

I’m merely stating it’s a reasonable thing to think and want investigated based on past experiences of this man cheating. There’s a difference between knowing something and calling it a fact and not knowing something as a fact but stating a forceful opinion. “I know he cheated to win” is an opinion, and an educated one based on past experience. Opinions aren’t facts. And true information literacy demands we recognize and respect the difference between fact and opinion, and how each inform the other.

Can't know one way or another if you don't look.

I'm eager to see the results.

...and do not take digital or other types of ballot manipulation or result manipulation into account.

Evidence, not speculation.

Not doing multiple recounts because there isn't any "evidence" to call for them is like when you want to know how much money is in your wallet but you're not allowed to count it unless you can correctly guess the amount first.

Those occur in every election.

To 10 million fewer voters in 2024? Weird.

Many more voters were mailed ballots in 2020 because of COVID.

Who on this website has investigatory powers? Who has subpoena power?

And who on this website has prosecutorial power? If someone here says, "I think this whole thing stinks," the actual answer is not, "Show me your proof." "You're being silly," maybe. A contrary opinion, perhaps. But "Shut up until you have the case nailed down with prosecutable evidence" makes no sense on a discussion website.

And you believe that any criminal investigation cannot start without all the evidence?

That's odd.

which "seems" fully justified to me in light of the facts he did lay out.

Just one example, here are some provable facts, along with an opinion based on those facts. I fully agree with his opinion that the situation of the bullet ballots should be investigated.

One piece he seems to be missing is the actual number of ballots cast, which, in Virginia at least, is compared to the number of voters who checked in via the ePoll books.

The way I understand his scenario is that they used the data gathered to check voters in via the ePoll books, then added those votes to Trump's totals.

But once three numbers are compared, this scenario falls apart:
1. Number of people in ePoll book
2. Number of votes counted by tabulator
3. Number of actual ballots used

I don't like the result any more than anyone else.

I want to go forward. I want to know what's being done for the ready next time.

Repeatedly made those claims was to cowd people into not doing the same in fear of sounding like him. It's manipulation

And when that didn't work he sent his stooges to overthrow the government and install him as Supreme Leader...

I just don't understand why people magically assume he wouldn't cheat again, especially since if he didn't win this time he'd be looking at a jail cell...

Because they can depend on the Democrats to roll over and take it lest we sound like them.

I'm done with all this turn the other cheek bullshit

When he says something he usually means it. He always has to give it away. A bit like my husband. Can’t keep a secret. Of all the years of election interference this is the fastest I have seen the nation roll over and accept a victor before all of the votes were counted and the professional people with questions about the numbers had their answers. Time will tell.

Not many more, if any are saying he did not cheat.

What people are saying is we have no evidence that he actually did or even how he could have.

I am fairly confident that if the results were different that the burden of proof for those wallowing in aimless conspiracy speculation (no, it doesn't rise to theory) would be far lower.

I also wonder where all the demands for automatically having a forensic investigation and recount of all results were and instead the opposite was actually the prevailing opinion when Chump and the Republicans were demanding hand counts this time.

I feel like my brain will turn to mush if I keep reading fantasies where the author can’t even cite credible sources. “My brother in law’s cousin who read it on FB” is not a credible source.

I think that is the way they cheated legally. The voting rights act being gutted and the citizens united decision has allowed all the ways they have devised to stifle and frustrate and fool voters.

Don't we all love seeing long lines at polling places because it signifies voter enthusiasm? That is not what we are seeing, we are seeing hundreds of thousands of voters being discouraged from voting. Where did all those Biden voters go? That might be a place to start looking. I'd like to see that investigated by someone.

By republican local officials all over the country seems like a great way to steal an election. Some of these republican dirty tricksters challenged registrations of over thirty thousand people EACH.

audit the increased GQP registrations for validity because there is no assurance that all were legit. It is not a question of "if it wouldn't have swung the vote then don't bother" as some people say. You also accomplish nothing by just having a recount that is either just rechecking the individual machine totals to make sure that they add up or is only a "sampling" approach.

An actual full audit of the physical ballots, poll books etc. and all registrations for actual verifiable validity is the only true complete investigation. What will you find? We won't know unless it takes place. The likelihood it will take place is unfortunately near zero for a multitude of reasons. The registration system is set up to be gamed by people who are supposed to verify registrations. Once again I will point out that simply presenting documents and having somebody put a check mark in the computer that those documents were presented is not verification the documents or the person are valid. We also don't know if the computerized registration system could be "allowed" or "gamed" to create registrations with names, addresses, documentation etc. without any real person having presented said documents. We don't know.

But it is important to remember that people expressing feelings and opinions stimulate debate and questions. That debate and those questions can contribute to laying out the types of things to be investigated. It is wrong for people to think that opinion or expressing feelings of doubt should come only once the facts are obtained from an investigation are putting the cart before the horse to a large degree. Suspicion and expressing it leads to investigation. Without that suspicion and expression you remove most of the pressure to do an investigation. Precisely what crooked people hope will happen.

Suspicion, opinion, doubt and expressing those three are fundamental things that help drive the desire to investigate and obtain facts. I will always stand firmly behind anybody who expresses those three in good faith.

I don't disagree in any way with your post. Evidence is absolutely necessary. But here is a fact that I present, that SHOULD be a starting point for investigation: Putin, Trump and Musk are three extremely rich, extremely evil, extremely amoral men who seek total world domination through any means, including killing their enemies, manipulating the press, and controlling electronics. It is also a fact that all 3 of these, some of the most powerful men in the world, seek to manipulate the US elections.

First, you note that something seems out of place, then you investigate.

I haven't been reading everything lately, but I haven't seen anyone talking about mules and suitcases of ballots brought in by election workers.

The voter fraud that traitortrump and cohorts yelled about is pretty much all imagination. It would require a lot of poll workers being extremely lax at the jobs they volunteered to do, or be part of a vast conspiracy. The system is fairly immune to voter fraud, at least to the level necessary to change outcomes.

Vulnerability to election fraud will continue as long as the count somewhere depends on programmable electronic devices. (And as long as the 14th Amendment -- specifically, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States" -- is ignored by the Supreme Court. Voter suppression is a form of election fraud). The official count should be based on the paper ballots, not digital devices.

Robust systems are not built by presuming they are robust.

Info on voting methods: https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_state
This is not entirely accurate. Example, I am in Kentucky but the "Ballot-Marking Device" is the voter, who then feeds the ballot into an optical scanner.

one supposed to produce evidence without investigation?
Don't get me wrong, I find claims of massive fraud to be ridiculous, but the demand for evidence first doesn't really make sense.