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DFW

(56,779 posts)
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 12:15 PM Dec 8

I learned a German expression for what universally drives people into the arms of the extremist right: Verlustangst

Verlust means "loss," and Angst means "fear." So: "fear of losing something/everything."

The National Socialists (NSDAP, or "Nazis" for short) effectively made the population afraid that the Jews and the Bolsheviks were coming (or were alredy there) to take away what the people had. This was particularly effective in post World War I Germany, when economic conditions were dire.

In present-day USA, it's again, money, but also weapons, God, daughters, "freedom," or the "American way of life," which is definable by exactly no one.

It doesn't matter what, or which combination or even all of the above. The Republican tactic is to convince voters that "they" are coming to take something away from them. Anything. Their internal combustion engines, their right to dump Roundup into our drinking water, their right to put innocent people into jail and leave them there, their churches, their "freedom" to force their religion onto others, and, of course, their freedom to not have anyone else force their religion on them.

The Republican line is to convince their voters that we "libbruls" are coming to take all that away from them. It's theirs to "lose," and the Republicans are saying, "we're here to protect you from that." And since they own most of the media people listen to, enough otherwise rational people believe it. When it's such nonsense, then WHY do people believe it? I can't really explain it, other that the fact that too many people hear nothing BUT this line, and have come to accept it as the truth.

No one understood this phenomenon better that Hitler's buddy, Hermann Göring:

"Naturally the common people don't want war . . . but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or parliament or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

"People don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? The common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany."


My father in law WAS that "slob on a farm." He didn't want war, but was drafted at age 17. He was sent to Stalingrad at age 18. He returned at age 19. He was not in one piece. But that is one loss that the extremist right will not be warnig you about.

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I learned a German expression for what universally drives people into the arms of the extremist right: Verlustangst (Original Post) DFW Dec 8 OP
They ARE losing ground. But they don't want to blame the ruling class leftstreet Dec 8 #1
BINGO!! "All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked," Like immigrants coming over the border from Mexico. mitch96 Dec 8 #2
Yep, then amplify that message so "illusionary effect" goes into action using social media accounts uponit7771 Dec 10 #22
I found Heather Cox Richardson's letter BuddhaGirl Dec 8 #3
There's a saying among leftists that fascism results from... keep_left Dec 8 #8
It's a pretty good word to describe conservatism, too! Grins Dec 8 #4
Frank Wilhoit, markodochartaigh Dec 8 #9
Pretty acid-tongued when he wants to be ... :) eppur_se_muova Dec 8 #11
I recently read a novel that made this very point. LisaM Dec 8 #5
To wit DFW Dec 9 #17
Yes, exactly. I like using cash, too. LisaM Dec 9 #19
KnR Hekate Dec 8 #6
I made a long reply on another thread. love_katz Dec 8 #7
Really well said! Evolve Dammit Dec 8 #16
Re: church goers--I heard a great call in on German radio today. DFW Dec 9 #18
Sadly true Nigrum Cattus Dec 8 #10
Don't kid yourself. Mr.Bill Dec 8 #12
The very thing they fear losing, now they have chosen for all of us to lose. Those who have Clouds Passing Dec 8 #13
This is a well stated thought. It's what the Dems should be saying SpankMe Dec 8 #14
I'm not sure Magats don't want war.... Evolve Dammit Dec 8 #15
They were never socialists or communist. Always Blue Dec 9 #20
Josef Goebbels would beg to differ DFW Dec 10 #21

leftstreet

(36,394 posts)
1. They ARE losing ground. But they don't want to blame the ruling class
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 12:30 PM
Dec 8

It's the worst sleight of hand. Convincing peasants they're closer to the ruling class than, well the peasants. Talk about identity politics.

DURec

mitch96

(14,742 posts)
2. BINGO!! "All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked," Like immigrants coming over the border from Mexico.
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 12:53 PM
Dec 8

Fear of the other... get's em every time.. I was in Michigan before the election and that's all I heard people talking about and blasted on Fox noise. Fear of the other..
m
"Naturally the common people don't want war . . . but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or parliament or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce them for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

uponit7771

(91,948 posts)
22. Yep, then amplify that message so "illusionary effect" goes into action using social media accounts
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 01:21 PM
Dec 10

keep_left

(2,487 posts)
8. There's a saying among leftists that fascism results from...
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 01:44 PM
Dec 8

...a crisis of capitalism. That's what's been going on for many years now, sometimes in slow motion, and now greatly accelerated. And democratic institutions are notoriously fragile as a defense against fascism. Richardson explains this well in her essay.

But as the impulse of WWII pushed Americans toward a more just and inclusive society after it, those determined not to share power warned their supporters that including people of color and women as equals in society would threaten their own liberty. Those reactionary leaders rode that fear into control of our government, and gradually they chipped away the laws that protected equality.

There is, of course, a lot more that can be said about the history of what happened. One of the most pernicious trends over the last several decades has been the rise of the far-right "think" tanks, which when allied with the power of organized money (which helped create them in the first place) and increasingly reactionary Republican candidates, have made meaningful reform almost impossible. (Much has been said about the rise of the truly vicious "Gingrich class of '94", which brought about an enduring bellicosity to domestic politics).

Grins

(7,924 posts)
4. It's a pretty good word to describe conservatism, too!
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 01:01 PM
Dec 8

The constant fear someone will get something that they won’t. The fear their “power” will be diminished.

Extends to so much. “If they get a vote that means my vote means less!”

markodochartaigh

(2,221 posts)
9. Frank Wilhoit,
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 01:45 PM
Dec 8

“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”

https://slate.com/business/2022/06/wilhoits-law-conservatives-frank-wilhoit.html

eppur_se_muova

(37,609 posts)
11. Pretty acid-tongued when he wants to be ... :)
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 02:26 PM
Dec 8

"The Republican Party flatters itself as a conservative party, and conservatism has long been surrounded by an enormous shimmering halo of pseudo-philosophy."

LisaM

(28,729 posts)
5. I recently read a novel that made this very point.
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 01:15 PM
Dec 8

It's very important to understand that to many people, change equates loss. And perception is a huge part of this. Reagan and then GW Bush both effected huge change with their policies and Supreme Court choices, but people were sold a bill of goods and bought it.

Be that as it may, people fear loss and I get that. We probably should all try to get it. In my own world, I hate that the town I live in has changed and that people have chosen to let brick and mortar stores disappear in favor of online shopping. I go blue in the face explaining about how this affects quality of life and the local tax base, and I just get fingers waved at me like I am some kind of dinosaur.

So, yeah, I get this, and it's something we should pay attention to.

DFW

(56,779 posts)
17. To wit
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 05:24 PM
Dec 9

My wife (far more left-leaning than I am) ahbors the current drift toward a cashless society. The stores in town vanish due to online competition, and any government run by a group with a control freak attitude (AfD-type facists or DDR-type socialists, it doesn't matter: control freaks are control freaks) LOVES the concept of a cashless society. They then have access to every last thing you eat, sleep in, drive in, every place you travel to--when and for how long--, what you eat, what entertains you, and what brand of toothpaste you use. She uses credit cards even less than I do, and I try to pay cash with every purchase where I have the seller in front of me, and the transaction doesn't require me to haul around a wad of cash that sticks out of my pocket.

Our pretty little old medieval town outside Düsseldorf used to have way more little small biz type shops lending a colorful old-work aspect to the town. Now, creeping disappearance of the old-style shops is giving way to rows of national chain shoe stores, mobile phone shops and discount travel agencies. Every town in the whole of Germany now has these places! They are worse than McDonald's. It's a depressing process to watch.

LisaM

(28,729 posts)
19. Yes, exactly. I like using cash, too.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 07:59 PM
Dec 9

I think we have a whole generation growing up that barely knows what cash is and it's going to put them into debt. My cousin's daughter (15 or so) got her first paycheck - I am sure direct deposit - and what was the first thing she bought? A delivery of hair conditioner through Door Dash.

love_katz

(2,857 posts)
7. I made a long reply on another thread.
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 01:43 PM
Dec 8

The ability to challenge the drumbeat of fear, fear, FEAR, and the fire hose of propaganda and outright lies spewed 24/7 by the Fright Wing is made much more difficult by the fact that the Fright Wing owns or strongly influences the corporate owned McGreedia. They also own the AM radio stations which are what many people listen to in their cars. I can't afford internet streaming services when away from my home wifi, but I am retired, so I am not stuck commuting each day.
Another source of fear, misogyny and hate is the fanatical fundamentalist churches, who harangue their flock every Sunday that they have to vote for CONservative candidates and measures in order to avoid burning fear eternity. . Sadly, it never seems to occur to these benighted folk that such a cruel and vindictive deity is more deserving of being spat upon then worshipped. And, the IRS should have stepped in long ago to remove the tax exempt status of churches engaging in politics.

The other issue seems to be related to the time and location in the country where people grew up. I was raised in the largest city in my state, I have always lived on the West Coast, and my parents weren't big church goers. I was also lucky enough to go to high school at what was then one of the most liberal schools in the country. Not trying to be smug. I was just lucky in avoiding being pumped full of hate and misinformation and to come into contact with people who were different than me and with teachers who worked hard to open our minds and show us that we didn't need to fear the achievement of justice for all.

The struggle we face is getting the facts out there that progressive policies and programs do benefit the majority of people and that real change is possible. The group we need to reach with these messages are the people who CHOSE not to vote in the last election. I keep reading that they are a larger group of people than those of us who chose to vote.
I have no idea how to reach these people. We haven't had any wealthy people step up to buy a media outlet for progressive causes. The wealthy are under the erroneous impression that extreme wealth equality doesn't really affect them. They may only get the point when the economy finally collapses, as it is guaranteed to do under oligarchy.

I really wish more people would wake up and see how they are being manipulated through false and manufactured fears.

DFW

(56,779 posts)
18. Re: church goers--I heard a great call in on German radio today.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 05:31 PM
Dec 9

I was on my way back from the airport this afternoon (was down in CH for a couple of hours), and there was the winner of the day's call-in Christmas story.

I was a woman who, with her sister, dutifully went with their parents to midnight mass every Christmas eve, even though they found it boring and hated it. One year, they had had enough, and decided to quietly slip out and hide in the nearest bar. They made a clean getaway, and entered the bar. To their great shock, sitting at at the bar was their father, who had slipped away even before they did.

Now, decades later, they still tell the story at Christmas time, and laugh about it.

Clouds Passing

(2,623 posts)
13. The very thing they fear losing, now they have chosen for all of us to lose. Those who have
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 02:38 PM
Dec 8

created this situation have already lost everything that is good, healthy and just.

SpankMe

(3,293 posts)
14. This is a well stated thought. It's what the Dems should be saying
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 03:08 PM
Dec 8

And, they should have been saying it during the campaign.

But if Dem leadership accurately and validly compared Repub tactics to Nazi tactics, then they get accused of Godwin's law and they self-censor. Nazi comparisons are only bad when Dems do it, apparently.

Repubs openly accuse Dems of all manner of Marxism, socialism, America-hating and - yes - Nazism as well as other other extreme but invalid comparisons. But Dems making comparisons to the Nazis is framed as out-of-bounds. I don't get this.

I am a 100% Democratic voter, but I have to criticize our side for not being bold and feisty enough. We need a little more asshole on our side and a little less of "if we go low, we'll alienate swing voters". Repubs aren't afraid to risk alienating independent or swing voters with extreme rhetoric. They, in fact, won with it. We must do the same.

Always Blue

(58 posts)
20. They were never socialists or communist.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 08:13 PM
Dec 9

That's why the United States brought nazis over to help fight the red scare. Hitler co-opted the workers party. Just like Trump has co-opted the republican party. They spread like cockroachs throughout the republican party. The republicans created the environment for it to happen. Bush jr. Wishing for a dictatorship was a clue for what was coming. Daddy Bush did mention the Trilateral Commission.

DFW

(56,779 posts)
21. Josef Goebbels would beg to differ
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 01:07 PM
Dec 10

He was a dedicated socialist, whose version morphed into "National" socialism later.
"National" in German is pronounced Nah-tzee-oh-nahl. Nah-tzee for short.

One brief summary:
https://fee.org/articles/joseph-goebbels-own-words-show-he-loved-socialism-and-saw-it-as-the-future/

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