General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs a Grand Realignment Coming?
There may be a grand realignment of the parties coming, as has occurred in the past - in the 1850's, 1910's for example. That grand realignment has already happened with the electorate. County by county, across the nation, the higher the average income, the better Harris did; the lower the average income, the better Trump did. That is a stunning reversal. It was the other way around for 100 years. Something has to give.
The more Democrats wooed the upper middle class professionals, the more they alienated blue collar folks. That opened the door for right wing populism, as historically has always been the case.
Back in 2008 I was amazed at the support in farm country for Obama, in the fields, in the packing houses, in the processing facilities, on the loading docks. Why was that? Obama promised to go after the banks and to save the home owners, and he promised to give people access to decent healthcare. Those things did not happen, and the resentment and frustration has been percolating ever since. The upper 20% has done well, yes, but too many people have been left behind. Wonky talk about policy, or scolding voters for being stupid or whatever - which happens right here every hour - is just salt in the wound. The stock market has done well, the home values in the upscale neighborhoods have increased. More salt in the wound.
The overwhelming sentiment in 2008 was a desperate desire that someone would shake things up, go after the fat cats, and give the working people a fair shake. Obama promised to do that. It was only after those promised were broken that people turned to MAGA. I am not talking about Musk and the billionaires, not talking about the right wing nutjobs and white supremacists, the "militia" brown shirts. Those don't represent enough people to win elections. The Republicans needed a lot of people who thought "what have we got to lose?" in order to win. Things had to be really bad for people to think "what have I got to lose?" Things are really bad. Housing, healthcare, transportation, food, utilities are all more and more difficult for people to afford.
The Democratic party has become the party of the upper 20%, by the upper 20%, for upper 20%. That described the Republican party a generation ago. Meanwhile, blue collar workers have drifted to the Republicans out of desperation, because there is nowhere else to go. Many Democrats cannot accept that, because they do not understand the suffering and resentment of the bottom half of the population, do not see how tone deaf the Democratic party messaging is, and do not see how compromised and conservative the party has become in all areas except a couple of "culture war" issues. Worse, Democrats right here every day mock and ridicule the blue collar people and dismiss their suffering. On the "culture war" issues the right wing has defined the terms of the debate and controls the messaging.
On top of all of that the party leadership has allowed the right wingers to get almost complete over the national political discussion - social media, cable, streaming. I was startled to see when I searched for "news" in Roku's "app store" that there were a dozen or more right wing channels, including Charlie Kirk, Steve Brannon, et al, all advertised as "fair" and "honest" news. Then we have the dozens of religious channels on cable and satellite, many of which are thinly disguised right wing propaganda outlets, along with the 3 or 4 far right alternatives to Fox. Then we have Sinclair broadcasting monopolizing local TV news, and the thousands of right wing AM radio stations.
Where is there any messaging to counter all of that? Well, there’s MSNBC, where half of the guests or more are always Republicans. Free Speech TV? Progress Radio? NPR? Social media strongly favors right wing content, so we are drowned out there. Yet we mock voters for being poorly informed and brainwashed? Of course they are.
We hear “they are voting against their own interests!” No they aren’t. Their interests are not on the ballot and they don’t trust the promises anymore. They voted to blow it all up, in desperation.
But the Democrats insist on ignoring all of that and going after that mythical suburban swing voter, and appealing to the educated upper middle class professional people. Senator Schumer: “For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”
The Democratic Party’s fetishization of the suburban voter has myriad roots. These are desirable voters, in theory, because they are more likely to vote in midterms than more traditional Democratic constituencies like the young, the poor, and people of color; they’re also more likely to be substantial donors. And for Democratic centrists, middle-of-the-road Republicans are also ideal voters since they are unlikely to demand large government programs.
The Democrats have pursued suburban Republican voters since long before 2016, to little avail. “Democrats have dreamed for years of peeling away the rings around major cities, separating suburban voters who favor conservative tax and economic policies from a Republican Party that also champions harder-right positions on abortion, guns and gay rights,” the Times reported. “So far, that effort has gained Democrats few seats.” The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee reportedly found that in the 2014 and 2016 elections, suburban voters were “inching away from Republicans, but too slowly to flip many seats.”
The Democrats’ Risky Pursuit of Suburban Republicans
A recent Substack entry from Lucas Kunz asks "Why do people keep voting against their own self-interest?"
Excerpts:
Even if the presumption in this question is true, that someone would have a better life if they voted for a certain candidate, there’s no way forward from this question that comes to a mutual understanding. Because it comes from a place of superiority.
That may be insurmountable. The idea that to be a Democrat is to be smarter, more knowledgeable, more compassionate is deeply intertwined with people’s sense of self-worth and their identity. Of course those of us who are smarter — thanks to genetic roulette — or more knowledgeable — thanks to fortunate backgrounds and more leisure time - are smarter and more knowledgeable. It doesn’t take a smart knowledgeable person to figure that out. But more often than not we are employed to advance the interests of management, not those of Labor. For those services rendered we get higher salaries and more perks and social status. Blue collar workers increasingly see liberals as tools for management, and not without cause. Those attitudes bleed over into Democratic party politics with devastating effect, as every alert and honest observer should now be able to see clearly.
I specifically remember these Marines and their families asking me how the bankers could get away with it. Didn’t we all just bail these banks out? They would ask. I signed up after 9/11 when these guys were attacked in New York, they would say, how could they forget that and treat us like this? Who is the government supposed to be looking out for, anyway? Why isn’t it us?
“Who is the government supposed to be looking out for, anyway? Why isn’t it us?” That could be the theme of the 2024 election, or it could be the epitaph on the tombstone of the Democratic party. Or, it could be a call to action, a new beginning, a fresh start, a renewed commitment to working toward a better future for humanity.
The entire essay is worthy of a careful read. It is hard to choose what to excerpt from it.
“Everyday people want to tear down the system because it is corrupt, they can’t afford groceries, they can’t buy a house, and they basically have to work until they die.”
The system is not working for most people. Even reform on the scale of the New Deal is probably woefully inadequate to address this crisis. The problem is not with the voters, it is with us.
“The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.” Abraham Lincoln
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
MichMan
(14,709 posts)In my lifetime (and I'm collecting SS) the same political party has only once won three consecutive presidential elections. 1988.
Going by history, the electorate has overwhelmingly shown that they are ready for a change every 8 years. It has happened time and time again. That is why I was pretty certain that McCain was not going to win in 2008. Same reasoning is why I thought the odds were against Hillary in 2016.
That may be true, but that would then tell us that people do in fact think that the system does not work for them. On the rare occasions when the system has worked to some extent for working class people there was less of that back and forth effect: 1800-1820; 1932-1948.
WarGamer
(16,769 posts)Pander to billionaires and neocons see what happens
...
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)Whenever dems bring up anything that will help the middle class, the billionaires send their minions in to stop it. Brooks brothers riots, Obamacare equals death panels, I had to pay for college why should we forgive student loans. Why in the name of whatever would you vote for people who want to end social security, Medicare and any other programs that might help people. The Democrats are not the problem. Short sighted easily manipulated ignorant Americans are the problem.
So how do we replace the population, if that is the problem?
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)The voters are well aware of that. It has eroded trust and made it difficult to counter the right wing fake populism.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)The republicans have been set on destroying the middle class . Government is the problem, trickle down economics meaning piss on the populace, Supreme Court picks dismantling our democracy.
Graft and corruption from Rick Scott down to the governor of Mississippi. But the democrats are the problem. We have billionaires buying our elections, the Supreme Court and the stupidest politicians we’ve ever seen. Marjorie green, bobert and more because they are also easily manipulated. If Americans want to preserve what we have left they need to learn from history and stop voting for monsters who are out to rule and gain more power.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)What has the Republican Party done for poor, middle class, blue collar, anyone but rich folks?
Cirsium
(2,191 posts)Nothing, really. Of course. Yet they win elections. At some point doesn't that say something about their opposition?
This discussion is about what we do, not what they do.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)And a complicit media ,Fox News, cnn free publicity, all of the legacy media sane washing his crazy ,billions from citizen united Elon and thiel, people who we know nothing about giving donations.if you are afraid of Haitians and immigrants you are not going to vote for a biracial woman. Certain people
Are turned on by his act and the more disgusting he is the more they like it.
It isn’t about messaging unfortunately it’s a popularity contest and she was not crazy enough.
3catwoman3
(26,460 posts)Exactly. Ignorant and proudly, willingly so. Ignorance and arrogance is a particularly baaaaaaaaad combination.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)As the article notes, right wing billionaires own the air waves and internet, so their message (lies) drowns out our message (truth). So what the fuck do we do about THAT?
Cirsium
(2,191 posts)First, we need to understand the problem.
"If we could first know where we are, and whither we are tending, we could then better judge what to do, and how to do it." - Abraham Lincoln
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)We fucking understand the problem: we are awash in Republican propaganda. How do we overcome that propaganda?
LuvLoogie
(7,940 posts)
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)How do we deal with that sea of propaganda?
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)As we all just witnessed...
WarGamer
(16,769 posts)Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)JI7
(91,664 posts)But they are racist white men so it doesn't count as elitist.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)
Oneironaut
(5,947 posts)Time for new faces. The absolute silence right now is proof of it.
Response to Cirsium (Original post)
Post removed
Red baiting? Seriously?
(*) Or whatever their latest rebrand is: "DemSoc", "Progressives", "Greens", "Naderites", "Code Pink", what have you.
You do realize that the Republicans are adding "Democrat" to that list? Otherwise, your sentiments are identical to theirs.
Steven Maurer
(501 posts)...they're just bottom of the horseshoe fascist cultists of the left-side variety, willing to sacrifice the poor on the altar of their combination utopian/vengeance-fantasies.
Republicans call us "child molesters" too. That doesn't mean we should have any inclination to make common cause with real child molesters.
Celerity
(49,045 posts)
Steven Maurer
(501 posts)I'm just adopting the terminology they so often use.
But if you want to call yourself a "progressive" without adopting the seething hatred of Democrats that communists have, that's something at least.
Are they in the room with you now?
Gaugamela
(2,762 posts)Dem for 50 years.
W_HAMILTON
(8,847 posts)Kamala's second-best performing income demographic were the poorest in our nation (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/exit-polls).
Furthermore, your premise that Democrats "has become the party of the upper 20%, by the upper 20%, for upper 20%" is also false because what *actually* has happened is that income here is simply a proxy for education level. Democrats certainly do not focus their policies on the top 20% of earners -- do you actually believe that?
But Democrats do live in the real world where reality, actual data, and critical thinking skills rule the day -- not propaganda and feelings. THAT'S why those earning more (AKA more educated) flock to us rather than the fascist party that pushes propaganda that they can easily see right through.
It takes a rude awakening for those easily swayed by propaganda to learn who is actually for them -- and they are about to get four long years of on-the-job learning.
It's sort of like kids that know not to touch the stove because they listen to their parents vs those that have to touch it and see for themselves. They didn't listen to us and so quickly forgot the lessons of the recent disastrous Republican administrations, so they get to experience firsthand, once again, the error in their ways.
Cirsium
(2,191 posts)They are like kids, they didn't listen to us, they are in for a rude awakening, they are about to get four long years ...
Is that you fighting for the working class then?
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)I can lead a horse to water, but if that same horse runs away and decides to drink sulphuric acid, what the fuck am I to do?
Do you know how goddamn sick and tired I am of going door to door trying to beg and plead middle class white folks to NOT vote for Nazis every four years?
I don't ever talk to middle class white folks. I am sure it would be frustrating. Maybe nothing will work with them.
Lulu KC
(7,662 posts)
I am in a neighborhood I could never afford to live in .
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)the working class. There are MANY GOOD reasons for student loan forgiveness but the optics of it are TERRIBLE for securing working class votes.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)But they decided to support a Nazi madman criminal (again) so fuck 'em...
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)And they love it...
Maybe some unfiltered tough love is in order...?
Cirsium
(2,191 posts)The whole point of reform is to pacify the working class so that business as usual can continue. Sometimes some real gains are achieved by the working class. But you can't say that people should be pacified by whatever it is you are doing. If they aren't, they aren't, and that is the only way to measure the success of reform.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)I mean, besides the racial scapegoating against people of color?
I am not defending Trump ffs.
He tells them he will "smash up the system..." What he doesn't tell them is the quiet part - "...for the benefit of the 1%."
Since Democrats did not pick up on that ball after Occupy, Trump stepped into the vacuum.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)And he only made life worse for the blessed "working class" while Biden/Harris made it better...
Let's just get to the real crux of the matter, which is white folks didn't want to support a black woman over a white man regardless of "qualifications"...
WarGamer
(16,769 posts)Among white voters, in every presidential election from 1948 until 2012, the richest 5 percent were the group most likely to vote Republican, according to analysis by the political scientist Thomas Wood. In 2016 and 2020, this dynamic reversed itself: The top 5 percent became the group most likely to vote Democratic.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)I've now got EVERY square on the bingo card from the shitty hot take punditsphere:
Harris campaigned too far to the right
Harris campaigned too far to the left
Harris was too centrist in her message
Harris should have embraced Biden
Harris didn't distance herself enough from Biden
Harris didn't fight disinformation strongly enough
Harris wasted too much time fighting disinformation
Harris "talked down" and alienated voters when debunking disinfo
Harris had too many celebrities
Harris had too few celebrities
Harris had the "wrong kind" of celebrities
Harris didn't do enough to energize the base
Harris didn't do enough to convert Trumpers
Harris didn't do enough to lure moderates
Harris should have done Rogan
Harris shouldn't have done SNL
Harris shouldn't have done 60 Minutes
Harris didn't do enough to ease the concerns of Arab-Americans
Harris didn't do enough to earn votes from Jewish folks
Harris had too many rich people linked to her campaign (But that didn't hurt Donnie because reasons)
Harris wasn't "black enough"
Harris' campaign was too diverse and white men were feeling neglected (I swear I'm not making this up)
Harris should have chosen Granholm as a running mate
Harris should have chosen Shapiro as a running mate
Harris should have chosen RFK Jr as a running mate
Harris should have chosen Michelle Obama as a running mate
Harris should have chosen St. Bern as a running mate
Harris was too serious and uptight
Harris laughed too much
Harris has no message
Harris had no detailed plans
Harris turned off voters by constantly lecturing about her message and detailed plans
Harris should have fought back against Trump's slanderous insults
No, Harris should have turned the other cheek and ignored him
Harris turned voters off by living up to the "angry bitchy black woman" stereotype
Harris turned voters off by NOT living up to the "angry bitchy black woman" stereotype
I got hundreds more, but y'all get the point
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)And they should be treated as children instead of adults from now on... That's one page we definitely need to steal from the Trumper playbook.
Now that I've seen Americans for what they really are, there's no going back.
Celerity
(49,045 posts)Which, if taken and pushed on a permanent basis as the dominant theme by the official Democratic Party leaders, likely guarantees overall electoral ruin for us for decades to come.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)And 49% of the voters were indeed stupid -- they fell for the propaganda our airwaves and internet are awash in and voted against their own interests.
Pretending that is not our reality will not make it go away, and it will certainly not help us craft a strategy for victory.
So now what? How do YOU propose we deal with that reality?
Celerity
(49,045 posts)Just four examples:
1. The View interview where VP Harris said there was nothing she would have done differently from Biden, thus further linking her to a very unpopular POTUS administration, and doing so in a change election environment. That was seen by tens upon tens of millions of voters via different types of communication, both live, replays, news, social media, and political adverts.
2. The overall insistence that the economy was great and inflation was ended, that things were back to normal, when, for a huge chunk of the population this simply wasn't true in their daily lives. Their cost of housing, especially in terms of rental prices, plus the massive price gouging done by so many firms betrayed the 'back to normal' theme.
3. The embrace, in some cases at a deep campaign level (including multiple live appearances with them), of hard RWers and neocons like the Cheneys etc, simply because they were Never Trumpers was a major mistake OMHO. It yielded little positives in terms of bringing in Rethug votes, and also alienated many of our own voters. I would wager it was one of the factors that depressed our turnout. The vast majority of my real life social set (made up of mostly 20 to 35 year olds, I was 26, 27 during most of the campaign) was appalled at the linkage/embrace.
4. The failure to go on the Rogan podcast. Yes, he is a fucking rotter, but he also has an audience of hundreds of millions globally. DU too often seems obsessed with small audience legacy media outlets like MSNBC or whatever the NYT/WaPo are spewing out. Those old school trad media outlets simply are (I am not happy about it, but it is what it is) dwarfed in terms of audience and impact now by social media, podcasts, etc.
Finally, calling millions of potential voters (not speaking about MAGAts) 'stupid' is hardly an effective way to get them voting for our side.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)
Celerity
(49,045 posts)false framing) 'lie' to do so.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)She supported and participated in all of the transformative things Biden got accomplished and rightfully is proud of them. I totally get why she (truthfully) responded like that. When Gore tried to run away from Clinton's accomplishments, it sure didn't help him win.
In retrospect (hindsight is 20/20!), she should have said something like, "There is always room to do more, and I do have my own ideas, like the $25k down payment program." And maybe she could have added, "And certainly if we had been clairvoyant and known Trump would tank the bipartisan border bill, we would not have spent so much time on it and would have instead implemented alternative solutions, which we immediately did when Republicans abandoned the bill at Trump’s demand."
Still, way too much was made of that Harris comment by right wing media. Her statement on the View is not why she lost.
Celerity
(49,045 posts)have perhaps added in.
My short list of four things was not meant to be in order of importance, sorry if it came across as such.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)We can always think of doing or saying things differently if we know what will happen in the future. But we don't. I would not have said any of my suggested statements at the time, I would have just answered it honestly, like she did.
Cirsium
(2,191 posts)There are no style points in politics. Being right and a dime $5 will get you a cup of coffee - or a dozen eggs. This was a must-win situation - all the politicians said so themselves when they were endlessly begging for money.
All of the post mortem excuses are about factors that were well known long before this fiasco, and it is the worst electoral fiasco in US history. Taking all of those factors into account is the most important part of the job. There certainly were enough overpaid consultants, analysts and operatives. They had a ridiculously huge budget. But they failed, and they failed catastrophically. Pretending that is not the reality will not make that go away.
60-80% of the general public support very progressive positions on all important issues when the questions are framed honestly and without any reference to red-blue partisanship. That means the wind is strongly and consistently at our backs. How do we ever lose any elections?
I have never lost an argument with any right winger on any topic, no matter how "brainwashed" by right wing media, no matter how "stupid" you might think they are. And I do it for free. So it can be done. No more excuses. There is too much at stake.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)Mississippi, West Virginia, Louisiana and so many other poor states vote for republicans?
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)than Democrats do. 2 things I will point to that were VERY effective at moving the poor/working class of all races towards the Republicans. 1) Student loan forgiveness. Many reasons why it is valid but TERRIBLE optics. 2) Transgender issues. The 'Kamala is for they/them' ad was devastating. If your response it 'F them bigots' prepare to be outvoted for quite a while.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)They can vote however they like but transgender individuals don’t affect them. But lack of social security, no health care, underfunded schools, no social services and grifting governors and congress people will continue to pull resources away from them. Every republican since Nixon has played some variation of the race or culture card , maybe one day they will wise up and stop slitting their own throats. But oh my god those gays and uppity women, immigrants ,black people and furries.
They need to stop being manipulated by fear and hubris, maybe we can save our country .
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)no? Is that a 'them' problem (back to the voters are stupid) or an 'us' problem, which is something we are in control over?
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)Without being in the trenches. We’ve had great candidates running for local office . They showed up to discuss their issues , republicans didn’t bother. He won. If you know how to get through to them come on down because they don’t give a damn about anything but being a republican. They don’t care about healthcare ,many of them don’t wear seatbelts. Stop blaming their hate fest on the democrats , they need to own their failures. When people offer you a hand and you slap it away , that’s on you.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)those who feel this way and say there is zero that we Democrats need to change in policy and/or messaging are hoping for is a collapse/semi collapse of the USA so it is obvious to all that the Republicans are not the answer.
My question is at what cost is that path?
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)They are not dumb but they do make some dumb decisions. There information comes from locals which is a feedback loop. You are so invested in something we could do differently. Then you tell me .
Response to Keepthesoulalive (Reply #47)
Post removed
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)Grandma or auntie takes care of the youngins. Salt is something you put on food or for preserving the venison. I get where you are coming from but these are the common folks they don’t understand most things outside of their small community and they always feel someone is getting something that they are not getting. If the local police stop them for speeding like 90 in a 60mph zone , that boy is picking on them. Boy is used for white or black they don’t discriminate in that area. The rural schools are crap because who wants to teach in a rural area. I invite anyone who wants to try and get through to them to come on down. The response will be you talk funny and don’t tell me what to do. Student loan forgiveness, it’s just another thing for them to resent. I can’t think of any locals that have gone to college, most rack up insurmountable debt at these ridiculous trade schools. I think they have what you would call free floating resentment. They are pissed at the unseen hand that is keeping them down. When it’s their own habits that’s hurting them. One more thing they have never seen a transgender person just something the republicans threw out there for them to fear. They will always find someone to demonize that is where we need to have better defense.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)pointing them towards. Nothing we need to change either policy wise or messaging wise. Just continue to lose elections because the voters suck.. Gotcha!
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)What I and other Democrats keep asking is how we overcome the sea of anti-Dem propaganda that is flooding these low info voters.
You seem to have no answer. Bashing Dems is certainly not an answer, but that is all the OP articles offer--which just adds to the anti-Dem propaganda.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)individuals in womens/girls sports) but apparently all those are a bridge to far to win elections.
On the messaging front, we have shown an ability to fundraise 1B in 90ish days in a losing cause to win the 2024 election. What if we took that funding and bought MSNBC and made it a true voice for working class democratic ideals? Just a thought.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)I told you why your message may not work. Different culture have different values. They are locked in their culture. They have taught me mountain ways and I am grateful. They don’t believe in wasting things.they know which vegetation to eat.but their culture does not allow them to vote for democrats. They are proud of being white and they will not be associated with democrats and those others.
When I moved here someone told me they are still fighting the civil war and that is true. They gerrymander for a reason , because they know no message from democrats will resonate with this culture.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)to be in power. Is that the takeaway I am supposed to get from this 'The voters are too stupid to vote Democrat' view? That we are the ones on the wrong side of history?
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)They are not stupid but ignorant may be a better choice. What message does Marjorie Taylor Green have , she does nothing for her constituents other than acting the fool. She is crass, dumb ,mean and understands nothing but crazy conspiracy theories and still they vote for her. They should be ashamed but think about it trump is as stupid as she is and they love it. My folks taught me manners, she has never acted in a decent manner but she’s like one of those wrestlers you see on television. Maybe you can figure it out but it escapes me.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)factually correct is not (in my experience) an effective way to get them to vote for you.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)Since we are communicating online we want to be understood. There is no way to describe them that is not loaded. I don’t think they would be reading DU. But most of their interactions are verbal or visual media. So no worries. All we can try to do is out vote them. And a male charismatic will help.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)The billionaires who own the airwaves and the internet drowned out our message with their appeal to resentment and bigotry.
So you're suggesting we back off our equality stance and abandon transgender people? Who do you think that will satisfy?
The billionaires will find something else to attack us with, because as long as we are pushing for worker friendly policies, the billionaires will keep spending billions of dollars to flood the zone so Republican candidates win. How do we counter THAT?
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)working class voters of all ethnicities we will not be able to save anything.
I am however willing to consider other options but after reading most of the responses in this post the vast majority of DU'ers seem to be of the camp that we don't need to change anything policy or messaging wise. I think that is a recipe for continued lost elections for the foreseeable future.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)The OP articles have not offered any strategies, just Dem bashing.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)days in a losing effort to secure the presidency. Lets do that again but this time in an effort to raise funds to buy MSNBC and make it into a true working class mouthpiece for the Democratic Party.
Now what is YOUR proposal?
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)With regard to buying MSNBC, there's this:
Cuban added: “I would rather promote Bluesky and hope it helps them aggregate audience, and create a network affect that gives agency to all viewpoints. I think with the addition of real time news and sports, it could give Twitter a run for its money.”
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/25/media/elon-musk-msnbc-spinoff-cable/index.htmlCertainly expanding our media footprint eould help, but I don't think the your solution is to buy MSNBC?
If I knew what the solution was to overcoming the GOP propaganda, I'd be screaming it from the rooftops. One person in this thread is suggesting getting a charismatic male for our next presidential candidate. I am sure that our next Dem nominee will be male regardless, sadly. Will he be able to overcome the sea of GOP propaganda by using his charisma to garner more media and online attention that Biden or Harris did? I hope so.
But repeating false right wing talking points sure as fuck won't make us win.
AZSkiffyGeek
(12,743 posts)Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)That will get them to vote for democrats. You’re hung up on a message that will resonate, because what I hear is I ain’t gonna vote for no damn democrat , it’s part of the culture.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)wise then we will continue to lose elections as the working class becomes more and more Republican.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)The real question is: How do we get past the sea of billionaire-funded Republican propaganda that is convincing people to vote against their own interests?
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)Policies
1) stop supporting student loan forgiveness
2) stop supporting SALT reinstatement
3) stop supporting transgender athletes in womens sports
Messaging
1) we can raise money. We raised 1B in 90 days in a loosing presidential campaign. Raise that money and buy (for example) MSNBC and make it a true blue collar democratic outreach machine.
You may not like my proposals but I put some out there.
Your position seems to be the voters are stupid and there is nothing we need to change.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)Nobody here is saying that. Stop making shit up.
We definitely need to change things; we need to figure out how to get through to low info voters. We need to change the messaging imbalance with Republicans. That is why we lost.
See my post #127.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19803390
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)"we need to figure out how to get through to low info voters. We need to change the messaging imbalance with Republicans."
Good job ID'ing the problem. Any possible solutions? I offered one. it may suck but at least it was an idea. What's yours?
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)do you have any proposed solution?
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)As I said in post 127, if I knew what the solution was to overcoming the sea of GOP propaganda, I'd be screaming it from the rooftops. As I also said in post 127, as far as solutions go, one person in this thread is suggesting getting a charismatic male for our next presidential candidate. I asked if such a man would be able to overcome the sea of GOP propaganda by using his charisma to garner more media and online attention than Biden or Harris did. I said hoped he would. But nobody really knows. All we can do is try.
What I do know is repeating false right wing talking points sure as fuck won't make us win, which is all the articles in the OP are doing with their Dem bashing.
It is fucking 3:40 am on the West Coast. I'm signing off from this unproductive, Dem bashing thread, kelly1mm. You're free to keep posting. Good night.
berksdem
(804 posts)times... I believe I know where you are coming from but what would YOU do? Maybe someone else asking the question will make a difference?
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)But we sure can't find the solution by misidentifying the problem. Falsely claiming it is because Obama did nothing, as the Kunce piece in the OP suggests, is simply adding to the propaganda.
I have not heard many actual solutions from anybody, other than one person in this thread who suggested getting a charismatic male for our next presidential candidate. I assume the thinking is that such a man would be able to overcome the sea of GOP propaganda by using his charisma, like Obama did, to garner more media and online attention than Harris could, without being hobbled by sexism as she was. I am not sure we have anyone like that in our stable. Another person suggested the candidate needs to go on Joe Rogan's podcast and say he'd do everything differently from Biden, in essence validating the GOP propaganda.
Certainly expanding our social media and podcast engagement makes sense, but running away from or maligning Democratic accomplishments is self-defeating. We need to up our messaging to be much more simple, pointed and powerful, given the mentality of 49% of voters. We need to hammer that the GOP is just there to give tax cuts to the rich, at our expense, starving our police, schools, national parks and roads of tax money. And we need to repeatedly hammer that only Democrats have ever instituted programs that help working people (Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, ACA, minimum wage, CHIPS Act). Our Democratic candidates should be passionately rattling off those very true talking points every time they get in front of a microphone the way Republicans do with their bullshit talking points. Repetition is key.
I have no idea if the tsunami of GOP propaganda can be overcome. All we can do is try. We must try. There is certainly room for improvement on that front.
What I do know is that repeating false right wing talking points sure as fuck won't make us win, which is all the articles in the OP are doing with their Dem bashing.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)I have asked this question and will continue to ask it. What have the republicans done anything for the working class or anyone who is not rich?
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)real question is what to do about the fact that the working class is moving toward the Republicans even though they don't do anything for them. Otherwise this is just another 'the voters are stupid' take.
H2O Man
(76,503 posts)I am encouraged reading your posts, and hope you keep on speaking out.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)That is what all Dems are asking. You are not asking a novel question. Got any answers?
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)we need to recognize that the majority of people do not support transgender athletes in womens/girls sports and access to single sex bathrooms. It just is what it is. Not saying it is right but the 'Kamala is for they/them' ad was devastating
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)We lost because low info voters were convinced by the billions spent by billionaires lying to them that Democrats fucked up the economy and made their groceries expensive.
How do we get past that propaganda?
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)endorsements and more on reaching the voters where they actually are would help. You may think that salt/student loan forgiveness and transgender issues were not (part) of the cause of the loss but I disagree. It shows a party that is more in touch with high earning (SALT), highly educated (student loan forgiveness) and fringe issue (transgender) than working class voters.
emulatorloo
(45,732 posts)for that claim?
Thanks in advance!
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)to the tune of multiple millions of dollars. Not that anything is wrong with that but again, it goes more to showing the campaign was not focusing of working class voters/issues. I don't think the celebrity endorsements moved any significant number of voters. Do you?
Again, the Harris/Waltz campaign had an almost 3 to 1 fundraising advantage and still could not get to the voters it needed. Why was that?
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)The celebrity musical acts sang about democracy and working people and freedom. They directly appealed to the working class and middle class, not the rich.
And yes, the Harris/Waltz campaign had an almost 3 to 1 fundraising advantage over Trump in terms of individual donors, but that ignores the role of PACs in this election. The fundraising from individual donors is PEANUTS compared to the billions raised by PACs. That dark money bought this election. And that dark money went overwhelmingly for Trump. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-megadonors-2024-election/
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)Thanks to Citizens United, BILLIONS more went to helping Trump via PACs than helping Harris. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-megadonors-2024-election/
And that money was used to run those ridiculous ads. If it wasn't the transgender scare ads, they would find something else to scare the shit out of low info voters. Republicans have always been experts at the Willy Horton ad. BTW, SALT is not just for high earners. The SALT deduction helps everyone but the poor, who pay no income tax.
eppur_se_muova
(38,723 posts)repeated on every rightwing network, franchise, blog, podcast, Web site, whatever, as long as they're willing to accept funds from the PACs and superPACs, and of course they always are.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)the increased standard deduction (29,200 in 2024 for MFJ). Who besides the very well off is paying over 29,200 as MFJ in deductible expenses? There is a reason the number of people itemizing dropped like a rock after the standard deduction was increased.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)So Harris wanting to restore it as well was not a factor in her losing or Trump winning. So stop with the talk about SALT. No polling of voters identified it as a significant issue.
The common thread in all serious post mortems is we could not break through the Republican propaganda. The GOP convinced low information voters to vote against their interest. Again.
So the question remains: How do we overcome that sea of billionaire funded propaganda on the billionaire-owned TV and social media sites?
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)But it is not like I have not offered my opinion. The SALT issue is not the policy argument itself. It is the impression of who the Democrats are fighting for. When you tell a renter that someone paying 25k in RE taxes 'really needs' that deduction, that does not sound like you are fighting for the working class. Do you understand that? Same with student loan forgiveness.
All you seem to be saying is that the voters are stupid/ignorant rubes who fell for the lies again and ask over and over 'how can we combat the lies' without offering ANY suggestions.
If you don't like my proposals, what are yours?
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)That propaganda is what turned low info voters toward Trump and got them to vote against their own interest.
Dropping our support of the SALT deduction does not address the problem of how we get through the GOP propaganda. It was not even discussed on the campaign trail. Harris talked about giving people affordable child care and $25k to put down on a first home. Those were her 2 main talking points. For you to suggest that all she was talking about was SALT and student loan foregiveness is just plain wrong. The SALT deduction helped the middle class a lot. And wanting people making less than $125k to get up to $10k in loans foregiven (which is what the program was) is not an "elitist" program. It disproportionately helps those making $20-40k and people of color. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/student-loans-the-racial-wealth-divide-and-why-we-need-full-student-debt-cancellation/ You are basicalling repeating right wing propaganda with your arguments against SALT and student loan forgiveness. Plus, IT DOES NOT ADDRESS WHY WE LOST.
You are not offering a solution to GOP propaganda, you're just adding to it.
kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)GOP propaganda?' I keep answering and you keep asking the same question.
Again, my answer may be wrong but at least I have a proposal.
For the, I don't know, 5th time? WHAT IS YOUR SUGGESTION?
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)kelly1mm
(5,672 posts)because the Harris/Waltz campaign did nothing wrong and the voters are just stupid/ignorant/fooled rubes.
I at least offer some policy/messaging ideas. They maybe suck. they are better than doing nothing IMO.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)Hopefully our next candidate will be charismatic enough to overcome it, like Obama did.
In the meantime, let's stop bashing Dems with Republican talking points.
AZSkiffyGeek
(12,743 posts)I can only think of one reason why you would do that. But you've been doubling and tripling down on it.
So why do you believe the Democratic Party should be the party of bigots?
questionseverything
(10,654 posts)People needing two weeks pay for their rent are no where near buying a house, and that’s half the country
I cringed every time I heard about her sorority sisters ( that includes less than 2% of us)
If we mention addressing working people you all think unions and they are less than 10% of the country, workers needing help are working two crappy part time jobs with no benefits to get by and can’t relate to unions
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)Addressing that is not a "good example of being out of touch." It's just the opposite. People paying those high rents is why they haven't been able to save for a down payment. If they had that down payment, they could buy a house and their mortgage payment would basically be what they're paying in rent, but they now be homeowners and building their own wealth instead of building a landlord's wealth. I remember when my husband and I finally had enough of a down payment (because I got a $35k inheritence) to finally be able to buy a house, our mortgage payment was actually less than our rent was.
And who is "you all"?? Neither I nor any other Dem I know thinks working people are synonymous with unions. And people absolutely can relate to unions. Walking away from unions will not help us. Trump used Teamsters union president Sean O'Brien's speech at the RNC and subsequent non-endorsement of Harris to great effect.
Harris brought up her sorority sisters as one of the reasons she became involved in public service and decided to go to law school. Why is that cringe? It's her life story. And because Trump accused her of not being black, others pointed out she was in a black sorority. Other than that, it was not a big part of her campaign.
questionseverything
(10,654 posts)To make payments
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)This conversation is going nowhere. It's almost 4 am West Coast time. Good night questionseverything.
Cosmocat
(15,121 posts)Of normalizing right wing bullshit.
Bad news / blame the Ds.
JohnSJ
(98,313 posts)
bucolic_frolic
(49,568 posts)It arose from 1900 socialism, workers' rights, even European socialist influences, and by 1910 was opposed by Big Business, corporations, Titans of industry. Good government groups and civic organizations were business oriented and supported election reforms that led to city manager type governments, a professional politician as opposed to big city machine politics of the past. Only the National Association of Manufacturers if I recall correctly were supportive of workers. By 1920 large businesses began reforms that led to the beginnings of worker safety, housing, nascent sick pay, and even a nurse on duty to promote health.
All this and more in the book "The Corporate Ideal in the Liberal State" - J. Weinstein. Truly a fascinating read.
The OP I think is simply fraught with errors, and is really a none-too-subtle tirade against the Democratic Party:
"the epitaph on the tombstone of the Democratic party".
Methinks you're on the wrong site.
Cirsium
(2,191 posts)I did not say that 1910 populism was Republican or Conservative.
"Methinks you're on the wrong site" is out of bounds.
LearnedHand
(4,592 posts)The writer's framework is slightly skewed, however. I reject this part 1000 percent:
The dems didn't woo upper middle class professionals starting 2008. They wooed the wealthy corporations very hard. Everything else is spot on.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)Republicans promised the wealthy corporations the only thing they wanted: tax cuts. And they delivered. Democrats ran promising to raise taxes on the rich and rich corporations. Please state why you believe Democrats "wooed the wealthy corporations very hard."
Last edited Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:38 AM - Edit history (1)
Self delete. Bad source.
emulatorloo
(45,732 posts)These don’t represent “corporate donations.” They are donations from individual people who work there.
When you as an individual make an individual donation, you are required to state where you work.
Open Secrets then reports all those individual’s donations under the company name.
That means that these are donations from secretaries, office workers, cleaning crews, etc, Yes there may be executives as well, but there are lots of rank and file workers at corporations.
it does not surprise me that Democrats work at big companies.
My bad. Sorry. I deleted it.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts) 
Read the fine print on where Open Secrets get their data:
"Money talks, and powerful organizations use it to influence elections and policy. Each organization profile tracks campaign contributions from the organization's employees and members, its PAC and from the organization itself, only when it gives to outside groups. Each profile also tracks the organization’s lobbying activity to influence public policy, as well as its outside spending to influence elections."
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/all-profiles
I wouldn't be surprised if most employees at United Health are Democrats. But that does not represent what the CEOs and rich stockholders are doing. The employees give directly to candidates, the corporation can't. https://www.fec.gov/help-candidates-and-committees/candidate-taking-receipts/who-can-and-cant-contribute/ But the corporation can give to PACs in unlimited amounts, thanks to Citizens United. That's where the big money from United Health--the corporation-- went.
Billionaires and corporations poured tens of billions of dollars in dark money into supporting Trump...WAY more than was spent on PACs supporting Harris. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-megadonors-2024-election/
So how the fuck do you come up with your claim that Harris was courting corporations, let alone that it was the reason the working class left her for Trump?!
Cirsium
(2,191 posts)My mistake. That site used to be trustworthy. I removed the misleading information.
JI7
(91,664 posts)even among white working class the ones that say things like economy, education, health care are their top concern they vote democratic.
The ones that don't vote for democrsts are those that say immigration, crime, terrorism are their top concerns.
Obama lost some of the white support when he said black and latino men are unfairly targeted by laws enforcement. He never got this support back.
But he also didn't have huge support among them.
Let's not deny the facts.
I think that Senator Obama had higher percentage numbers among young white voters than middle age or old. And I remember the Sarah Palin nonsense. "Regular" republicans at the time thought she was a one-time annoyance who would fade away. She did, but a more toxic force would take root in the republican party.
JI7
(91,664 posts)She deserved everything she faced. But the media refused to do the same with a Trump.
With Palin they would call out the stupid things she said and they didn't feel the need to play the both sides game.
Trump us far worse than Palin but the media doesn't hold him to any standards.
Cirsium
(2,191 posts)Not sure how that contradicts anything I have said.
Right wing media has pounded on the immigration and crime lies. That makes it an issue or people. No surprise there.
No-white working class voters are loyal to the Democrats because the Republicans openly embrace white supremacy. No surprise there.
This is about what we do, or don't do, and not about what they do.
JI7
(91,664 posts)that were doing well and improving the run down area. The Haitians were working, starting businesses and paying taxes.
So they started to spread lies about them.
Racism lurks behind everything in the US. Politics economics, and social relations are distorted by white supremacy. But to get from George Wallace to Donald Trump takes more than racism.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,147 posts)The majority of White people have voted for republicans since the civil rights act.
They switched from democrats to republicans . The message is a little more subtle and encompasses more people. But the reaction is the same. People choose to look at fox, they choose to listen to hate radio, they choose to hate others. I don’t know that any message will change that .only a charismatic male can win( I feel so dirty for saying that). It is a popularity contest.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)So who will be our winning charismatic male?
JI7
(91,664 posts)we have many good options.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)JI7
(91,664 posts)won't even be alive by then. And even if he is alive he will just be out of it mentally and physically.
It will also be 4 years after they have been in office.
So what I'm thinking is Vance will not have the support to pull that shit. He will have to conform to the "norms". Vance is boring and the idiots that support Trump for the show and chaos will not back Vance. So Vance will not have the public support for such a thing.
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)Kunce offers no answers.
He spends a long time bashing Dems for not helping him with his housing issue when he got out of the service, and pointed out that Obama had 60 votes in the Senate at the time, suggesting there was no excuse for it. Well there were only like about 24 working days in Obamas's first term when he had a filibuster-proof 60 votes in the Senate, and he used those few days to bail out the auto industry and to get the ACA passed. https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2012/09/09/when-obama-had-total-control/985146007/ The rest of the time Republicans managed to filibuster everthing. So that was total bullshit for Kunce to suggest Obama did nothing for working people like him.
The rest of the essay is just him he restating the problems we already know:
Well, the great unifying theme of the Republican Party right now is that they are going to tear the system down. An agenda that has accomplished that neat trick of politically aligning working people with the big bosses. Building a big tent that’s expanded the base of Republican voters in nearly every Midwestern state.
The billionaires, industrialists, and many others want the system torn down because they want to squeeze everyday people, the economy, our land and water, and our health for everything they can get. They want to transfer every spare dollar to the shareholder class and they’re tired of the Federal Trade Commission, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, courts, laws, regulations on financiers, and everything else getting in their way.
Everyday people want to tear down the system because it is corrupt, they can’t afford groceries, they can’t buy a house, and they basically have to work until they die.
The response to these voters just can’t be doubling down on “the system works” rhetoric and telling people that “no, it really works, and by the way you are voting against your own best interest by not supporting it.”
That’s a recipe for decades of 2024s, because people just don’t think the system is in their own self-interest anymore.
The reason the system is not working is that Republicans are blocking it and defunding it. That is why we can't have nice things. That is why we don't have a livable national minimum wage so poor people can afford groceries. That is why we don't have affordable child care. That is why we don't have single payor healthcare and are at the mercy of evil insurance companies. That is why college costs so much. The University of California campuses used to be free, back when we taxed the rich. Now, tuition at UC colleges are $21k a year, and that does not include books, food, or rent.
So what do we do? How do we get past the sea of propaganda the Republican billionaires have flooded America with? Hell, we can't even get Kunce to see the truth.
Jack Valentino
(1,753 posts)through signing the ACA "Obamacare" into law--
I have health insurance now ONLY because of that---
so the line in the post that says he broke a promise to do so,
is CLEARLY "inaccurate" ( to put it politely)
SunSeeker
(55,351 posts)One of those people was my brother, who, at the age of 47, got health coverage for the first time in his adult life. It saved his life.
JI7
(91,664 posts)and was prevented from doing so by McCain who was dealing with his item serious health condition.
eShirl
(19,245 posts)
wryter2000
(47,793 posts)Obama saved mortgage through a program called TARP. I can’t have been the only one. And he got healthcare for a hella lot of people, including my brother, who never went to college.
Sorry. What we saw was a tsunami of lies allowed by lazy media. Plus a con man who is very good at manipulating it.
wryter2000
(47,793 posts)Exactly how do you think they could have prevented it?
You have a lot of flawed assumptions in here.
muriel_volestrangler
(103,387 posts)"Blowing it all up" is indeed "voting against their own interests". People do not get a better deal by causing chaos.
I also can't see why you think the "suburban swing voter" is "mythical", when you then go on to talk about all the blue collar people you say are moving away from the Democrats. Those are the suburban swing voters whose existence you deny.