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bigtree

(91,729 posts)
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 11:19 PM Feb 17

Don't freak if Chutkan doesn't grant a temporary restraining order on Musk

...to get to a TRO which immediately restrains Musk from further actions, Judge Chutkan would need to find that harm from his actions is imminent and irreversible.

With another more consequential 'preliminary' hearing scheduled in about 14 days - in which it's very likely she'll have enough evidence in front of her to rule against the administration - the plaintiffs (state Ags) will have the opportunity to go back and collect the evidence she signaled in her responses in court would show specific harm.

She'll also be making judgments, presumably, about Musk's official classification in the Trump regime, like whether his unofficial role has the authority normally only given to officials who have been through some sort of confirmation process in Congress.

To the point, there's much more judgment coming for Musk after the TRO ruling, no matter how it goes.


Michael Popok reports on the Judge finding the Trump DOJ’s comments that they “don’t know if people have been fired” and that “Musk doesn’t have actual or formal authority” to do so, lacking credibility during a rare Holiday hearing.

(excerpt)

...for right now the issue the sort of
the academic issue is whether there is
irreparable harm if she stops, if she
doesn't stop it now... she's going to hold
a preliminary injunction hearing which
is the next level up of from a trro
which is what the the hearing on Monday
was about.

In the next 14 days the question
is for her does she have to stop
Elon Musk from doing stuff right
now, or can we just get to the
preliminary injunction hearing?

Not every preliminary injunction which will last
until the end of the case is preceded by
a temporary restraining order. Many are,
now I would say in 80% of my cases where
I've gotten a tro, where I've sought a
preliminary injunction, I've gotten a
tro in advance a temporary restraining
order. But not every case, and the judge
is basically saying, not that I don't
believe that I'm going to give you the
injunction, the question is whether I'm
going to give you a preliminary
injunction in two weeks or I'm going to
give you an early injunction we call a
temporary restraining order.

So the things that were held up, that's
holding up the process now, is this academic
discussion and debate between the judge
and the lawyers about irreparable harm
sort of Falls by the wayside in about
two weeks.

She can still find irreparable harm
moving forward on a full
briefing on a full record... is not finding
it now, and it doesn't mean because she
didn't grant the tro that she's also
unlikely to grant the preliminary
injunction.

In fact quite the opposite I
think she's going to grant the
preliminary injunction in two weeks.
She's just going to let them do whatever
they're going to do in the meantime
which also strengthens the hand of the
14 or so attorney generals because
they'll be able to document the damage
over the next 14 days. And I think that's
what she's trying to do if I were a
betting man or guessing I think Judge
Chutkan is trying to help the movements
here the Attorneys General by giving
them the ability to develop a better
record by watching closely what happens
the next 14 days and bringing that
evidence to her attention.

watch:




(not a lawyer, so I may be a little squidgy on the details )
22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Don't freak if Chutkan doesn't grant a temporary restraining order on Musk (Original Post) bigtree Feb 17 OP
I read an article today. She likely won't grant it. LeftInTX Feb 17 #1
they're talking about the temporary restraining order bigtree Feb 17 #6
I suspect there's reasons for not issuing a TRO that I as a layperson am unaware of... Hugin Feb 17 #7
putting my trust and possibly future in cilla4progress Feb 17 #2
Unfortunately, think he has authority. Even if judge rules he doesn't, trump will order data "under his name. Silent Type Feb 17 #3
he still hasn't shown a dime of fraud bigtree Feb 17 #8
He's talked BS, but I guarantee he'll report crud like $600 toilet seats, aid to some poor African Silent Type Feb 17 #10
ALL of those are in the purview of Congress bigtree Feb 18 #13
So trump/Musk says, you [Congress] appropriated money for HIV help, but most went to local strongmen. Silent Type Feb 18 #15
we can have that fight bigtree Feb 18 #17
Yeah, if he cuts SS or Medicare. He doesn't have that political power. He probably does have power Silent Type Feb 18 #18
well, cuts will have to go through appropriations, won't they? bigtree Feb 18 #19
You'd think someone recently leaking confidential NSA data would qualify as imminent. TheBlackAdder Feb 17 #4
Yeah, I know.... LeftInTX Feb 17 #9
I trust judge Chutkan gab13by13 Feb 17 #5
I don't trust anybody any more NT Ex Lurker Feb 18 #12
Whatever happens, she will order Musk be jailed for contempt before it is over. MichMan Feb 18 #11
he is an arrogant fuck bigtree Feb 18 #14
TY! Bc I just heard in passing (radio) that she Hadn't, and I got a little freaked....then got ditracted by other stuff. electric_blue68 Feb 18 #16
Preemptive excuse making. BannonsLiver Feb 18 #20
No trust left in the US justice system. Justice matters. Feb 18 #21
Kick! liberalla Feb 19 #22

LeftInTX

(32,761 posts)
1. I read an article today. She likely won't grant it.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 11:22 PM
Feb 17
Judge seems unwilling to immediately bar Musk from meddling in federal agencies
Blue states have not provided enough initial evidence to justify a temporary restraining order, Judge Tanya Chutkan said at a court hearing.

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/17/judge-chutkan-musk-lawsuit-hearing-00204590

bigtree

(91,729 posts)
6. they're talking about the temporary restraining order
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 11:40 PM
Feb 17

...and they're likely right.

But that's not the end of the process.

here's a good explanation:

Michael Popok reports on the Judge finding the Trump DOJ’s comments that they “don’t know if people have been fired” and that “Musk doesn’t have actual or formal authority” to do so, lacking credibility during a rare Holiday hearing.


Hugin

(35,996 posts)
7. I suspect there's reasons for not issuing a TRO that I as a layperson am unaware of...
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 11:43 PM
Feb 17

Like perhaps it would add a longer delay as fighting and appealing the TRO would drag the focus off of the facts of the case itself. Adding more delay on a final ruling. Maybe the Judge is attempting to keep it on the core issues to expedite a permanent injunction.

Just a guess.

With all due respect to the process, what are all of the illegally terminated federal employees and other creditors/contract holders supposed to do when the bills for health insurance premiums, mortgages, child care, etc start rolling in at the end of the month. Tell them to hold their horses? It’s in litigation?

That’s not going to fly. These people will be ruined.

cilla4progress

(26,299 posts)
2. putting my trust and possibly future in
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 11:22 PM
Feb 17

her capable worthy hands.

Right now she's the only one standing between us and major destruction!

Silent Type

(8,897 posts)
3. Unfortunately, think he has authority. Even if judge rules he doesn't, trump will order data "under his name.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 11:24 PM
Feb 17

A Musk report will come out, and it’ll be designed to make Democrats look bad. They’ll find minor errors in a huge systems and rubes will eat it up.

Wish Biden had done a same when he took office in 2021. It would have uncovered questionable stuff and inefficiency too under trump’s regime.

bigtree

(91,729 posts)
8. he still hasn't shown a dime of fraud
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 11:44 PM
Feb 17

...and he promised that we'd see it before Valentinne's Day.

If it doesn't include his own already cited for corruption government contracts then it will be an obvious sham.

I don't know why anyone would assume they will come out with anything more credible then the lie Musk told about 150 year-olds getting SS checks, or anything from these inveterate liars.

Moreover, it's CONGRESS who makes the ultimate judgments about spending, not Donald Trump, Not Musk, not the Executive Branch.

Silent Type

(8,897 posts)
10. He's talked BS, but I guarantee he'll report crud like $600 toilet seats, aid to some poor African
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 11:57 PM
Feb 17

country for much needed HIV, Ebola, water, etc. At a minimum, they’ll make it look like it was not used for intended purpose.

They’ll find a few dead people still receiving SS, because their kids hid the body outside. They’ll claim people got disability improperly.

It might be only a few examples, but it will appease trumpsters who voted for this and anyone who might believe government is too inefficient and employees don’t care. Heard it all when I worked for government.

It might all amount to a projection of saving 0.0001% of our budget. Hope we have a damn plan to rebut Musk’s report and the promotional chit show they’ll put on to bash Democrats.

bigtree

(91,729 posts)
13. ALL of those are in the purview of Congress
Tue Feb 18, 2025, 12:09 AM
Feb 18

...not the Executive branch, no matter what kind of show they put on.

And, I can guarantee they will be shown to be not only full of shit, but scheming to gain personal advantage from their phony performance.

Silent Type

(8,897 posts)
15. So trump/Musk says, you [Congress] appropriated money for HIV help, but most went to local strongmen.
Tue Feb 18, 2025, 12:33 AM
Feb 18

Congress is going to say “we rely on USAID, SS, and other agencies to administer the appropriations properly. If they are not doing that, maybe we do need some big changes.”

Claiming it’s not in Executive branch purview ain’t gonna work because the administrative agencies are clearly under Executive Branch, that even appoints agency heads.

If Congress passes a law next week and trump signs it saying trump can’t fire people, that might work. But I’m not sure all Dems would support that.

bigtree

(91,729 posts)
17. we can have that fight
Tue Feb 18, 2025, 01:11 AM
Feb 18

...what we won't have is Trump, making unilateral decisions about spending (or not spending).

And,don't forget that it only takes THREE republicans in the house to help a unanimous Dem minority block things like SS and Medicaid cuts.

And also realize that USAID iswn't just a beneficient enterprise that Congress has supported for decades and decades, since Kennedy.

It's about BUSINESS interests which are not divorced from the republicans in the majority who are essentially employees of the corporations and money men who put them there.

Those are THEIR interests, as well, with at least 47 states directly involved in making the product of their constituents available to USAID - and that's not a donation, it's real dollars that these states will lose, that these politicians will hear about.

Now, USAID spending comprises just 0.3 percent of total federal spending. POINT THREE PERCENT.

In fiscal year 2020, USAID bought $2.1 billion of food aid from American farmers.


TWO POINT ONE BILLION! IN ONE YEAR!

Silent Type

(8,897 posts)
18. Yeah, if he cuts SS or Medicare. He doesn't have that political power. He probably does have power
Tue Feb 18, 2025, 01:16 AM
Feb 18

to fire a few percent of employees. Don’t like any of that, but he sold it to voters and won.

bigtree

(91,729 posts)
19. well, cuts will have to go through appropriations, won't they?
Tue Feb 18, 2025, 02:06 AM
Feb 18

...and republicans still haven't gotten their shit together to even pass a budget resolution to move to reconciliation.

All they have to do is get the Senate bill to agree with the House, but the House republicans are rabid and self-immolating.

NPR:

SIMON: What are Republicans trying to resolve?

SPRUNT: Well, they're working on how they want to pass President Trump's agenda. Things he campaigned on like security along the U.S. Southern border, extending the tax cuts passed in his first Trump administration in 2017, and then other things that Trump has asked for, like extending the federal borrowing limit. And what this comes down to, in the end, is a powerful tool called budget reconciliation.

SIMON: Powerful but complicated. Why choose that option?

SPRUNT: Exactly right. Well, the short answer is it's a way for Republicans to pass legislation without Democrats. So Republicans have 53 seats in the Senate, and Democrats aren't going to support much or any of what Trump and Republicans want to do. So it's not like Republicans can rely on seven Democrats to get them over the finish line, which is what they would need a lot of normal, as we would say, legislation. So they turn to reconciliation, which is part of the budget process that makes it possible for Congress to enact legislation on taxes and spending with a simple majority and avoid the threat of a filibuster, which requires that 60 senator number to overcome.

So yes, this is complicated, and it starts with a budget resolution, which directs different committees to change spending or deficits or revenues. Those committees all write bills to achieve their specific target, and then the budget committee puts all those bills together into one big bill that cannot be filibustered. So that's what House...

...that's what House Republicans are working on right now, this blueprint for a budget resolution. But senators have their own different plan. Budget committee chairman Lindsey Graham released the Senate budget resolution on Friday ahead of a meeting last night with Trump at Mar-a-Lago.

...each chamber has competing visions of the best path forward to implement this agenda. This has been a disagreement for months now. The Senate wants to do two bills, one for the border and energy, and the other on tax cuts. They're concerned that a tax bill could be too complicated to pass quickly. And instead, they want to move forward with things that they think they can pass relatively soon and then return later this year for that second package.

But top House Republicans want to tackle the agenda with one bill that encompasses everything. They're worried if they delay the tax element, it could be jeopardized altogether.

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/08/nx-s1-5288869/house-republicans-want-to-pass-a-budget-bill-that-would-support-trumps-policies

bigtree

(91,729 posts)
14. he is an arrogant fuck
Tue Feb 18, 2025, 12:11 AM
Feb 18

...who says incredibly ignorant things when he speaks.

I'd put money on that.

electric_blue68

(20,634 posts)
16. TY! Bc I just heard in passing (radio) that she Hadn't, and I got a little freaked....then got ditracted by other stuff.
Tue Feb 18, 2025, 12:42 AM
Feb 18
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