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bigtree

(93,368 posts)
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:00 AM Mar 2025

Look how easily the right convinced Democrats that they were the problem

..the 'Biden old' canard didn't start with Democrats. It originated as a whispering attack from republican operatives.

When it became a refrain of Democrats against their own incumbent president, it was clear that the ploy had been successful and would devastate our chances in the presidential election that should have been a slam dunk.

Supporting President Biden in that political fight wasn't merely something that was essential to our own party unity, it was a political imperative in the fight against the republican nominee.

How so many in the party, including many in the TOP Democratic leadership, circled back around that reality and came up with the insistence that Biden had to drop out isn't actually a mystery. It was deliberate ratfucking, a trolling operation that used ostensively Democratic sources to essentially stir up an unlikely campaign against the best hope we had in that race months before the election.

Here we are today with the same thing being perpetrated against BOTH Democratic leaders, both as accomplished as the Democratic presidents they served alongside of, bashing and dragging them for the weak hand voters stuck them with in the last election.

If you don't think that anti-Democratic party leader refrain originated from anti-Democratic sources, or isn't being exploited right now by political opposition forces, you're not paying enough attention.

The zeal in which this ratfucking is being exercised by some contradicts any concern for Democratic party 'messaging' as their public haranguing has no bounds, and no concern at all for the effects and consequences of what's essentially a public campaign against the Democratic party.

How perfectly naive of them to not recognize their acquiescence to the 'Dems in disarray' mantra that's the favorite go-to of the media ratfuckers.

How wonderfully subversive. This is supposed to be the height of political flexes; made popular by the Green Party ratfuckers, and, most notably by the Gaza ratfuckers in the last election.

There's no political 'courage' in handing over your own Democratic leader to the opposition, just as there's no courage in handing over the federal government in a shutdown for Trump. Musk, and Russell Vought who is and an actual architect of Project 2025, and who's pledged to inflict 'trauma' on federal workers.

Speaking Sunday on ABC's "This Week," the Rhode Island Democrat said Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and some other Democrats allowed the legislation to go through on Friday because they feared the damage President Donald Trump and his allies could do if the government shut down.

"The key to the shutdown here is that in an ordinary world, the executive branch wants to get out of the shutdown, wants to go back into normal operations," he said. "With these MAGA extremists in charge, they don't necessarily want to come out of shutdown."

Whitehouse told host Martha Raddatz that the OMB would have gotten extra power to restructure the government if there were a shutdown: "There's a guy over at the Office of Management and Budget named Russell Vought. He's got a little sidekick over there named Mark Paoletta."

He elaborated on his concerns: "These are very extreme people and OMB gets wild powers during a shutdown. So what we'd be doing is probably voting first to bring the Department of Defense back out, then voting to bring Homeland Security back out, then voting to bring veterans back out — while they went through other agencies of government they don't like so much and said that this part of the agency, that part of the agency, is unessential and, therefore, we're going to reduce in force all the employees. We're going to remove it, stop funding it, shut it down and then you get a very, very different government."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/sheldon-whitehouse-understands-why-some-of-his-fellow-dems-voted-to-avert-shutdown/ar-AA1B20AQ


Democrats may well be hampered by a corrupt republican party that changes the rules to accommodate their anti-democratic agenda whenever they encounter a pesky obstacle like the law or the Constitution.

But Democrats are not at all advantaged by publicly dragging them for what republicans are in complete control over. And you'd think it would be obvious, but when you open up a big squabble over why out-of-power Dems can't stop a party in control over ALL branches of government, including the Supreme Court, all you do is divert from the fight against Trump and republicans.

That's especially true here, and on other Democratic advocacy pages on the internet. You're not actually speaking to the Democratic leaders when you post here. When you're railing against our own party members here, you're potentially influencing people reading to adopt screeds against the Democratic party. No one should afterward be surprised that millions of previously energized voters fail to show up on election day after the dragging that took place by our supposedly own hands.

It's political neophytes who can't seem to politic beyond their own antipathies toward elected Democrats to actually confront republicans, and that's really a shame. Calling for the removal of BOTH Democratic leaders just weeks into the session is glaringly foolish politics and counterproductive to the political interest of a minority party that needs support to regain the majority.

And it makes no sense at all to leave that task to elected officials who are legislating, not campaigning right now, as they continue to fight the republican budget and other MAGA priorities in committees and in chambers of Congress.

What responsibility are WE going to fucking take for the health and support of the party? Like I said, tearing at the Democratic leadership and dragging them in public isn't actually the political flex against republicans that it pretends.
40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Look how easily the right convinced Democrats that they were the problem (Original Post) bigtree Mar 2025 OP
So you're happy with Schumer's and Jefferie's leadership. Got it. nt Phoenix61 Mar 2025 #1
This message was self-deleted by its author bigtree Mar 2025 #3
If the horse you're on is drowning it's the only smart thing to do. mt Phoenix61 Mar 2025 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author bigtree Mar 2025 #5
Not the party, the leadership. Huge difference! Phoenix61 Mar 2025 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author bigtree Mar 2025 #10
Sincere apologies, I didn't understand you took wanting new Phoenix61 Mar 2025 #15
It's not about talking down the party. It about squarely looking jrthin Mar 2025 #11
But we're not midstream EarlG Mar 2025 #17
We have posts in support of Ralph Nader now. LeftInTX Mar 2025 #38
Totally agree. There's no "conversation" when it's hateful name-calling and mindless bashing. betsuni Mar 2025 #39
We cannot continue to allow the gop to frame the arguments. They are no longer the party of freedom. lindysalsagal Mar 2025 #2
They never were the party of freedom. choie Mar 2025 #28
Anyone who has seen the data, the statistics, the graphs gab13by13 Mar 2025 #7
As you know, I agree - we need a paper ballot hand recount in certain states... yellow dahlia Mar 2025 #30
That dems could be easily convinced jrthin Mar 2025 #8
lol bigtree Mar 2025 #9
As a NYS resident, H2O Man Mar 2025 #22
You are lucky to have that personal history and memory. From reading about him, jrthin Mar 2025 #23
And worse, we're spending our weekend attacking Democratic leadership, MineralMan Mar 2025 #12
If Senator Schumer isn't savvy enough to see the rat fucking William769 Mar 2025 #13
Post removed Post removed Mar 2025 #14
"An Ode to the Establishment, Chapter 2,567" BannonsLiver Mar 2025 #16
K&R betsuni Mar 2025 #18
"...dragging them for what republicans are in complete control over. " Lancero Mar 2025 #19
magats were cheering for a shutdown Comrade Citizen Mar 2025 #20
But Schumer did nothing to gain anything for the price of his vote displacedvermoter Mar 2025 #26
Surely you can see the problem with the leadership, right? alarimer Mar 2025 #21
If you think there were no Dems worried about Biden's age Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2025 #24
People here still seem to think there was no mental decline for him. Ace Rothstein Mar 2025 #32
Your post are a breath of fresh air, keep them coming. nt Hotler Mar 2025 #25
Ah, I see, anybody concerned about the state of our leadership are ratfuckers, how convenient. indusurb Mar 2025 #27
Two things can be true at once. yellow dahlia Mar 2025 #29
You are back, after yesterdays drama. republianmushroom Mar 2025 #31
Nah, this was posted yesterday as a precursor to their crash-out rant with the sites co-owner. Lancero Mar 2025 #34
@bigtree B.See Mar 2025 #33
I wish I could recommend this post a thousand times. valleyrogue Mar 2025 #35
Same here Stuckinthebush Mar 2025 #36
I'm not convinced, but if I were looking for a simple easy convincing DFW Mar 2025 #37
Reed Hastings didn"t want to donate to Biden Blue Full Moon Mar 2025 #40

Response to Phoenix61 (Reply #1)

Response to Phoenix61 (Reply #4)

Phoenix61

(18,702 posts)
6. Not the party, the leadership. Huge difference!
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:16 AM
Mar 2025

How about Adam Schiff for Senate Minority Leader?

Response to Phoenix61 (Reply #6)

Phoenix61

(18,702 posts)
15. Sincere apologies, I didn't understand you took wanting new
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:33 AM
Mar 2025

leadership as opposing the party.

jrthin

(5,215 posts)
11. It's not about talking down the party. It about squarely looking
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:28 AM
Mar 2025

at the leadership we have and say it's not working. We can't change and make things better if we bury our heads in the sand. It's like banging one's head against the wall and expecting a different result. By not calling out what's not working all of us suffer. We lose elections and people who don't serve our best interest get elected. If we are to win we need the best team possible. Right now we do not have the best team. We're not even close to best. One more thing, we are not keeping this country afloat by not opposing bad policies and bill. By succumbing and supporting the republicans' toxic bills our leadership fails us.

EarlG

(23,356 posts)
17. But we're not midstream
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:41 AM
Mar 2025

You know that I am a strong advocate for holding back criticism of Democrats during election season, which is why the site's rules state that once primaries are over, nominees must be supported.

That's not where we are today. Trump won the election. Republicans gained control of the House and Senate. Democrats are in the wilderness. Democratic leadership looks weak and unfocused. We are less than two months into this current election cycle (Trump was inaugurated just over 7 weeks ago). The party is in the middle of an existential crisis, and rank and file Democrats want to talk about what to do next. That is the reality. It makes no sense to me whatsoever to disallow that conversation.

LeftInTX

(34,015 posts)
38. We have posts in support of Ralph Nader now.
Mon Mar 17, 2025, 01:59 AM
Mar 2025
https://democraticunderground.com/100220144999


Is that the solution?

I'm pretty much disgusted by all of this and don't feel welcome here anymore.

I support the Democratic Party.
I don't support dumping it.
The GOP wants to eliminate it.
I feel bad for anyone who cant see what's going on.

I work very hard with my local party.
We don't have time to bash Democrats in DC.

Maybe if more people worked for their local Democratic parties and focused on electing Democrats locally and building the party up from the bottom, we wouldn't be in this mess. Instead, everyone is armchair quarterbacking the top of the party in DC.

betsuni

(28,715 posts)
39. Totally agree. There's no "conversation" when it's hateful name-calling and mindless bashing.
Mon Mar 17, 2025, 03:12 AM
Mar 2025

Disgusting -- why are people doing this.

lindysalsagal

(22,823 posts)
2. We cannot continue to allow the gop to frame the arguments. They are no longer the party of freedom.
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:02 AM
Mar 2025

WE ARE!

gab13by13

(31,236 posts)
7. Anyone who has seen the data, the statistics, the graphs
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:16 AM
Mar 2025

of the anomalies in the swing states, must at the very least, come to the conclusion that there needs to be in depth audits of the last election.

The odds that Kamala didn't flip one red district to blue are astronomical, unheard of since FDR. Even Democrats flipped red to blue during Reagan's election.

Just my opinion that carries no weight, that Kamala Harris won the last election, and if that is actually true it throws a huge wrench in your gears. Kamala Harris ran a good campaign.

yellow dahlia

(4,557 posts)
30. As you know, I agree - we need a paper ballot hand recount in certain states...
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 12:51 PM
Mar 2025

and perhaps certain districts. It was done well after the decision in the 2000 election. I think the result will prove a crime was committed.

And then what happens, is again more uncharted territory. But I also think we need to recognize what you and I, and some others know - he is an illegitimate "president"...and eLoon is a criminal.

I do not know why Marc Elias and others refused to question the election. I believe it may have been because they didn't want to look like "the other weirdos". At the time, I felt they may have been falling for what i call a kind of reverse projection psy-ops.

You and I talk about this, in theory. I get that it is such a bizarro world on the unknown. But I also believe that we have to reclaim this Democracy and figure out how to secure future elections.

(I know that by expressing this view, I risk taking some hits...but I do so anyway.)

jrthin

(5,215 posts)
8. That dems could be easily convinced
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:19 AM
Mar 2025

that they are the problem really doesn't reflect well on dems. The fact that dems can be so easily convinced speaks really poorly about our leadership and reflects a weakness in them that should concern all of us. What your headline starkly says: Senators like Daniel Moynihan are no where to be found in this dem. Senate.

H2O Man

(78,632 posts)
22. As a NYS resident,
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 07:47 PM
Mar 2025

I can say the last US Senator that's office would engage in open conversations with voters was Moynihan. And, as I live near Pinder's Corners, I could drive to his home there. He welcomed people to sit on his porch with him and talk shop. Although he and I had some disagreements, he was always civil. And he was a heck of a good Senator.

jrthin

(5,215 posts)
23. You are lucky to have that personal history and memory. From reading about him,
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 09:22 AM
Mar 2025

I agree, "he was a heck of a good Senator."

MineralMan

(150,641 posts)
12. And worse, we're spending our weekend attacking Democratic leadership,
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:28 AM
Mar 2025

instead of going after the real problem, which is the man currently in the White House.

That is a path that leads to utter disaster down the road. We will either stop it or we will lose everything.

I'm considerably worried right now.

William769

(59,147 posts)
13. If Senator Schumer isn't savvy enough to see the rat fucking
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 10:28 AM
Mar 2025

Then we need a Democratic leader that can. Jefferies had no problem.

You are wanting to blame everyone under the sun except the person responsible.

Response to William769 (Reply #13)

Lancero

(3,260 posts)
19. "...dragging them for what republicans are in complete control over. "
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 11:28 AM
Mar 2025

If Republicans had complete control, their would have been no need for Democratic senators to side with them to pass the CR.

Republicans are not in complete control, which is why Democratic voters want their representatives to fight them on every issue. They only gain complete control when Democratic representatives let them have it.

None of us are blind to the threat that Republicans pose. But we can't mount an effective resistance, when we have those within our own party willing to capitulate to Herr Drumpf.

Comrade Citizen

(344 posts)
20. magats were cheering for a shutdown
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 05:32 PM
Mar 2025

magats wanted to completely gut everything during the shutdown. Every magat I've encountered in my area was boasting about a "Schumer shutdown". freepercreepers wanted the courts to shut down.

displacedvermoter

(4,136 posts)
26. But Schumer did nothing to gain anything for the price of his vote
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 09:59 AM
Mar 2025

Had he even held off on announcing his vote till the very last minute, had he made the Republicans sweat, and perhaps even forced concessions. Force Thune to call Johnson and get the House back into hurried session. But he caved on Thursday, just a day after getting the hearts of his cadre of supporters here fluttering with tough talk about the lack of cloture votes, and again, looked weak folding before the news cycle was even over.

And, BTW, folks who called on Biden to step down because of his age are now trying to say that hanging on to septuagenarians in key leadership roles --like Schumer, and Durbin, and Connolly -- over younger and more energetic candidates is a nod to institutional experience and sagacity. Consistency should always be part of a successful messaging effort, and here again we are failing.


 

alarimer

(17,146 posts)
21. Surely you can see the problem with the leadership, right?
Sat Mar 15, 2025, 06:54 PM
Mar 2025

I mean, they have not covered themselves in glory lately. I don't think we are falling for some kind of conspiracy.

Unquestioning loyalty to leaders who are no good is a problem. We are not cultists.

Cuthbert Allgood

(5,339 posts)
24. If you think there were no Dems worried about Biden's age
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 09:30 AM
Mar 2025

you need to get out of your bubble more.

Ace Rothstein

(3,369 posts)
32. People here still seem to think there was no mental decline for him.
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 01:23 PM
Mar 2025

It's pretty wild and it was happening throughout his term as POTUS.

indusurb

(297 posts)
27. Ah, I see, anybody concerned about the state of our leadership are ratfuckers, how convenient.
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 10:32 AM
Mar 2025

Look, there was a tacit understanding in 2020 that Biden was going to be one and done, mainly due to his age. When he announced he was going for reelection, yes, there was concern because there had already been signs that his mentation had slipped a gear or two. But when he came out for that debate, it became obvious to the whole world, and something had to be done, because the public wasn't going to elect a man whose mind was so obviously failing. Yes, Trump was, and is, showing the same signs, but he's sounded so out there for the past fifteen years, who can really tell, he's just crazy.

As for as Jefferies and Schumer go, look, people have been looking for leadership since Trump got elected, people to fight both with and for them. Yet here's Jefferies out there basically repeating the refrain from the Bush years, keep the powder dry, no matter what. And Schumer, when we finally get leverage, when the polls are in our favor, when politicians and the public are ready for a fight that we could win, Schumer, in the space of a day, whipsaws from advocating against the CR and fighting to capitulation and voting for it.

Damn right, people are going to be pissed at those two and now demanding new leadership. This isn't ratfuckery, this is people feeling abandoned and alone in the midst of a shitstorm, realizing that our so called leaders aren't going to help and it's up to us to get the US out of this mess, when the public at large holds very few levers of power, far fewer than the Democratic party does, even when they're in the minority.

Did Mitch McConnel, curse his black heart, roll over when the Pugs were in the minority? No, he grabbed every lever of power, dug up every obscure rule he could find and blocked almost all of Obama's agenda, even when we had the super majority. He even stole a Supreme Court nomination from Obama. If he can do that, then why can't we? We need fighters in leadership, ready to get down and dirty to do what is best for the country, not milquetoast polite placeholders who strictly adhere to Marquise of Queensbury rules while the country burns and people die.

The times are desperate, and it is time either lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. That's not ratfuckery, that's reality. Deal with it.

yellow dahlia

(4,557 posts)
29. Two things can be true at once.
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 12:43 PM
Mar 2025

Yes, I believe the RepubliCONS and other forces engage i psy-ops that Dems sometimes fall for.

But I also believe we have a right to expect more of our leaders right now. Schumer has made many strategic mistakes.

No one ever asks me, but I believe a good strategy right now would be replacing Schumer with someone who is better at strategy on a war footing. It is a good message to say - there is a new sheriff in town...and then act like it.

I believe Jeffries made some mistakes early on, when he seemed to think - let these guys screw up and it will benefit us in the midterms. But I believe he is doing a better job of leading right now.

Schumer absolutely doesn't have the skill sets for the times...you don't have to be a Democratic strategist to see that. We need the party to stop making mistakes, so we can all work together to save our Democracy.

Lancero

(3,260 posts)
34. Nah, this was posted yesterday as a precursor to their crash-out rant with the sites co-owner.
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 02:03 PM
Mar 2025

B.See

(7,776 posts)
33. @bigtree
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 01:29 PM
Mar 2025

whoa, who wrote this? Sounds almost like something Hartmann would write.

If this is yours bigtree, I must say, I'm impressed.

Not being sarcastic here. I think it's quite a piece.

valleyrogue

(2,586 posts)
35. I wish I could recommend this post a thousand times.
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 03:07 PM
Mar 2025

A lot of people don't really understand politics and how it works.

I just don't get it that people can get more angry at the Democrats than the party that is in power and inflicting the damage.

DFW

(59,730 posts)
37. I'm not convinced, but if I were looking for a simple easy convincing
Sun Mar 16, 2025, 05:50 PM
Mar 2025

I'd just ask Ralph Nader.

Blue Full Moon

(3,161 posts)
40. Reed Hastings didn"t want to donate to Biden
Mon Mar 17, 2025, 04:55 AM
Mar 2025

He was being investigated and wanted it to end. So the billionaires who now obviously wanted Trump. Then there was Clooney and the rest chirping. So where are all those those mouths at now? Not a peep.

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