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MayReasonRule

(2,820 posts)
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 02:31 PM Thursday

In 1862, a Union soldier found cigars wrapped in a piece of paper in a field of clover.


https://bsky.app/profile/markjacob.bsky.social/post/3lleqpehttk2i
In 1862, a Union soldier found cigars wrapped in a piece of paper in a field of clover. The paper was a copy of Confederate Gen. Lee's invasion orders. The Southern sloppiness helped the Union stop Lee at Antietam. It's unknown who lost the orders in the field, or if he was related to Pete Hegseth.


Key background on this true story:

The "Lost Order":
The document in question was Special Order 191, issued by Confederate General Robert E. Lee. It detailed his plans for the Maryland Campaign in 1862.

The Discovery:
On September 13, 1862, Union Corporal Barton W. Mitchell of the 27th Indiana Volunteer Infantry found a copy of the order in a field near Frederick, Maryland.
The order was wrapped around a few cigars.

The Significance:
This discovery provided Union General George McClellan with crucial intelligence about Lee's troop movements and intentions.
It played a significant role in the lead-up to the Battle of Antietam, one of the bloodiest single-day battles in American history.

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In 1862, a Union soldier found cigars wrapped in a piece of paper in a field of clover. (Original Post) MayReasonRule Thursday OP
1+ Norrrm Thursday #1
An Awesome Story ProfessorGAC Thursday #2
If McClellan had been a better General, he could have ended the war right there... Wounded Bear Thursday #3
Let's be clear: my poor Grandma would have done a better job in command. malthaussen Thursday #28
McClellan was a great organizer, would have been a great Chief of Staff... Wounded Bear Saturday #39
Doubt he could have set aside his ego. malthaussen Yesterday #40
If Only MissouriDem47 Friday #35
Unfortunately McClellan screwed it up. NNadir Thursday #4
It's been suggested that he was unwilling to crush the Confederacy... malthaussen Thursday #27
He lacked the moral courage to address a fear of failure. The difference between him and Grant was that Grant... NNadir Friday #34
MayReasonRule , 3825-87867 Thursday #5
Harry Turtledove wrote an alt history in which the orders were never discovered & CSA won the war. LeftyLucie Thursday #6
Dumb hogsbreath 3auld6phart Thursday #7
"... or if he was related to Pete Hegseth." calimary Thursday #8
Couldn't have been related to Hegseth. The plans were not wrapped around a bottle of gin. John1956PA Thursday #30
Lincoln needed a victory to issue the e Emancipation Proclamation, which pretty much insured the defeat of the CSA. Ping Tung Thursday #9
You need to pick up a book Mysterian Thursday #25
Pardon me for asking... NNadir Thursday #10
The sloppy dropper was Been a Dick Donald, who was defending the Revolutionary airports at the time. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Thursday #11
I rarely laugh about anything these days... TNNurse Thursday #12
I actually missed the punch line. Hilarious! NNadir Thursday #23
McLellan Cirsium Thursday #13
LOL Kali Thursday #14
I knew what the story was before I clicked on the article Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Thursday #15
Indeed Y'all! Discrection is the Better Part of Valor. Valor is the Better Part of Honor. MayReasonRule Thursday #17
Quite the enigma! BidenRocks Friday #33
interisting. AllaN01Bear Thursday #16
An earlier example of OPSEC gone bad. Before there was Donald there was Arnold. Marcuse Thursday #18
Holy smokes! BattleRow Thursday #19
Today all you need to do is to join Hegseth signal group chat. Emile Thursday #20
McClellan failed to take full advantage Martin Eden Thursday #21
Harry Turtledove wrote an alternate history series PoindexterOglethorpe Thursday #22
Wow, I didn't know about this (cigars & plans)! electric_blue68 Thursday #24
If it was Hegseth orangecrush Thursday #26
No one ever did find out what happened to those cigars... malthaussen Thursday #29
A powerful cell is operating : The Leak To The Atlantic Was No Accident. Deep Throat 2.0 Exists summer_in_TX Friday #31
It's unknown who lost the orders in the field, or if he was related to Pete Hegseth. Meowmee Friday #32
Lee has been aware of the lost message. VGNonly Friday #36
I grew up with UpInArms Friday #37
In a large context, perhaps the most important battle of the Civil War. Sneederbunk Friday #38
Was 'cigar man' a dry drunk or a wet drunk? BoRaGard Yesterday #41

ProfessorGAC

(72,081 posts)
2. An Awesome Story
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 02:52 PM
Thursday

This has been covered on the History Chanbel show "What History Forgot" or maybe "Ametica:Fact Or Fiction".
It was there that I was reminded about that story I heard when a grade school kid.

Wounded Bear

(61,622 posts)
3. If McClellan had been a better General, he could have ended the war right there...
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 03:04 PM
Thursday

or at least severly crippled the South's Eastern military capability.

malthaussen

(18,048 posts)
28. Let's be clear: my poor Grandma would have done a better job in command.
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 09:18 PM
Thursday

With all the advantages of considerable numerical strength and advanced knowledge of the precise enemy intentions, he was barely able to achieve a tactical draw. And then allowed the ANV to escape without further damage, tainting even the strategic value of the battle.
OTOH, one could argue that Antietam was the most decisive battle of the Civil War, because it gave Abe the pretext to issue the Emancipation Proclamation and make the war about slavery, and not just preserving the Union.

-- Mal

Wounded Bear

(61,622 posts)
39. McClellan was a great organizer, would have been a great Chief of Staff...
Sat Mar 29, 2025, 08:50 PM
Saturday

for someone like Grant, if he could have set aside his giant ego. MacClellan built the Army of the Potomac, that would eventually win the war in the East.

malthaussen

(18,048 posts)
40. Doubt he could have set aside his ego.
Sun Mar 30, 2025, 10:26 AM
Yesterday

He received too much adulation too young, and it went to his head. And the Army of the Potomac was split into mutually-hostile factions, with some of the senior officers such confirmed McClellan men they would have (did have) acted disloyally to any other general. Grant left Meade in command because he didn't have such a clique behind him (and he was not completely without merit). Hooker was transferred West where he, too, soon let his ego get the better of him.

McClellan deserves credit not only for building the Army of the Potomac, but in restoring its morale after Second Bull Run so that it could even get to Antietam to fight. Of course, the factions I mentioned were a large part of why the AoP had such poor morale after Second Bull Run; and in that campaign especially you see the effects of raging egos and disloyal conduct, and the refusal to cooperate for the good of the Union. Pope may have been an ass and an incompetent, but if he hadn't been torpedoed by officers loyal to McClellan (I'm thinking Franklin more than Porter), he was still in a position to do a bit of no-no to the ANV. The interesting thing to me is that even the troops who had never served under McClellan (about two-thirds of Pope's army) still fell under his spell immediately, and fought like lions at Antietam. Very poorly-directed lions, but lions nevertheless.

-- Mal

MissouriDem47

(138 posts)
35. If Only
Fri Mar 28, 2025, 11:17 AM
Friday

If Grant had been the commanding general of the Union army on that day they would have destroyed Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.

malthaussen

(18,048 posts)
27. It's been suggested that he was unwilling to crush the Confederacy...
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 09:14 PM
Thursday

... that he hoped for a peaceful resolution and the return to the status quo ante if he didn't hurt them so badly they'd get angry. Stupid, but on a different level than mere incompetence.

It's also been suggested that he was a bloody coward, even though he demonstrated great bravery in the Mexican War. That was then; he does demonstrate personal timidity as well as command paralysis once the stakes got higher.

-- Mal

NNadir

(35,414 posts)
34. He lacked the moral courage to address a fear of failure. The difference between him and Grant was that Grant...
Fri Mar 28, 2025, 06:20 AM
Friday

...knew failure and therefore wasn't afraid to risk it, having survived it.

My favorite quote relevant to this point about Grant, although not specific to him, was made by Eleanor Roosevelt:

“You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.' You must do the thing you think you cannot do.”

Like other figures in history, McClellan, was so obsessed with his ego that he refused to challenge it.

3825-87867

(1,331 posts)
5. MayReasonRule ,
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 03:11 PM
Thursday

With the last sentence of the illustration, I can safely say you should have posted that in the Humor Forum!!!

LeftyLucie

(40 posts)
6. Harry Turtledove wrote an alt history in which the orders were never discovered & CSA won the war.
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 03:15 PM
Thursday

"How Few Remain" -- he's a clunky writer but a master at imaging alternative paths for history based on a single twist (not finding the cigars).
It's the first book in the Southern Victory series in which CSA and USA find themselves on opposite sides of WWI and WWII.

3auld6phart

(1,495 posts)
7. Dumb hogsbreath
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 03:19 PM
Thursday

The verbiage he came out to cover the stupidity of his Shi show.are they all idiots? … yes!

calimary

(85,595 posts)
8. "... or if he was related to Pete Hegseth."
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 03:27 PM
Thursday

I’m sorry, but that made me laugh!

He deserves to be a laughingstock, nationwide.

John1956PA

(3,874 posts)
30. Couldn't have been related to Hegseth. The plans were not wrapped around a bottle of gin.
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 10:53 PM
Thursday

Ping Tung

(1,946 posts)
9. Lincoln needed a victory to issue the e Emancipation Proclamation, which pretty much insured the defeat of the CSA.
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 03:28 PM
Thursday

Lincoln made the war about slavery rather than state's rights. That ended any hope of help from Europe to recognize them as a country and stop the blockade which was ruining them.

NNadir

(35,414 posts)
10. Pardon me for asking...
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 03:39 PM
Thursday

A favorite Lincoln remark on McClellan to McClellan:

I have just read your dispatch about sore tongued and fatigued horses. Will you pardon me for asking what the horses of your army have done since the battle of Antietam that fatigue anything?


Lincoln and McClellan’s Fatigued Horses

Bernardo de La Paz

(53,673 posts)
11. The sloppy dropper was Been a Dick Donald, who was defending the Revolutionary airports at the time. . . . nt
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 03:42 PM
Thursday

TNNurse

(7,282 posts)
12. I rarely laugh about anything these days...
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 03:42 PM
Thursday

but the comment about Hegseth made me hoot outloud.

Thank you.

Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin

(120,788 posts)
15. I knew what the story was before I clicked on the article
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 04:10 PM
Thursday

There are a lot of times battles were lost because the enemy found out their foe's plans. This is why discretion and secrecy are so important.

MayReasonRule

(2,820 posts)
17. Indeed Y'all! Discrection is the Better Part of Valor. Valor is the Better Part of Honor.
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 04:21 PM
Thursday

Honor is the better part of Justice.

Justice sustains each of our Freedoms.

Freedoms are the substance and sustenance of Life.

Here's to the displacement and dissolution of the American Fascist Party aka the GOP.

Here's to reason's rule.


Martin Eden

(14,056 posts)
21. McClellan failed to take full advantage
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 05:28 PM
Thursday

He was very good at organizing and training an army, was pitiful when it came to commanding an army in battle. He was slow and overly cautious, taking counsel from his fears and always overestimating the enemy's forces.

At Anteitnam he fed his divisions in piecemeal and never committed his reserve, providing Lee with time for reinforcements to arrive, which enabled the Confederate army to escape across the river.

After McClellan was relieved of his command he ran against Lincoln in the 1864 election, promising to end the war short of Union victory.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(27,591 posts)
22. Harry Turtledove wrote an alternate history series
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 05:29 PM
Thursday

that has the cigar & invasion plans were not found by the Union Army. It's an interesting take on the ubiquitous "If the south had won the civil war" novels out there.

malthaussen

(18,048 posts)
29. No one ever did find out what happened to those cigars...
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 09:21 PM
Thursday

... the NCOs turned them into their CO with the plans, but who (if anybody) ever smoked them is lost to history.

-- Mal

summer_in_TX

(3,515 posts)
31. A powerful cell is operating : The Leak To The Atlantic Was No Accident. Deep Throat 2.0 Exists
Fri Mar 28, 2025, 01:22 AM
Friday

I have no idea whether the leak to The Atlantic was an accident or not. But this piece makes a damn fine argument about that and about the leak about Musk being briefed on war plans with China.

https://thewestpointhistoryprofessor.substack.com/p/a-powerful-cell-is-operating-the?r=2vqus&utm_medium=ios&triedRedirect=true

Terrence Goggin writes The West Point History Professor on Substack. The Wikipedia article on Terry Goggin indicates he taught history and other subjects at West Point. He took a tumble later in his career and apparently defrauded some investors, but most of his career looks respectable.


THE BEFUDDLED TRUMP TEAM HAVEN’T READ “ALL THE PRESIDENT’S MEN”. THEY SHOULD DO SO NOW.

The new “President’s Men” have been deeply penetrated. The Trump team has been exposed as profoundly; stupidly; arrogant. And that goes for everyone involved on their side of the table. Politics is like Showbiz, you can’t fake talent or basic competence. And you cannot hide a lack of brains.


snip…

IV. The Leaks were about the Meetings taking place, not the operating plans themselves, although the Houthi meeting did discuss the means and method of the attack.

What’s interesting is that both leaks involved Operating Plans, the most sensitive and highly prized information that exists. Both leaks involved the disclosure of the existence of a meeting to discus those plans to two different media. The New York Times, owned and controlled by the Ochs-Sulzberger family, notoriously rich and independent and the Atlantic Magazine, owned by Laurene Powell Jobs, a billionaire many times over. Neither can be intimidated by Trumps threats, as could Jeff Bezos, owner of the Washington Post, or the Television Networks with federal licenses that could be suspended or cancelled . The two leaks were thought through at a granular level.


snip…

Someone transmitted the written order instructing the Joint Chiefs to brief Musk to the New York Times, 12 hours before the briefing was to take place, in order for this to reach its 10 million digital subscribers worldwide. It wasn’t leaked days before. But mere hours before. Giving the Administration little or no time to react. Musk was on his way to the Pentagon for the briefing when it hit the internet. Thunk! The knife struck deep, up and into the heart of the Administration. Deadly.


snip…

As for The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg,

This was no mistake. This was a well planed clandestine operation. How could it be otherwise. Really. How is a the Editor of the Atlantic added to a secret encrypted thread of a secret meeting discussing operational secrets of a secret combat mission that is to take place within hours.. Editors of prominent magazines just don’t drop out of the internet ether to be added to an encrypted Signal communication of a highly classified discussion specifying the time, place and type of fighter bombers scheduled to implement missile strikes within hours


Looks like Hegseth's arrogance and firing of respected leaders without cause is not popular. Same with Musk.

It's plausible enough to give me some hope.


VGNonly

(7,997 posts)
36. Lee has been aware of the lost message.
Fri Mar 28, 2025, 01:00 PM
Friday

McClellan squandered his advantage.

I've been to Antietam twice. The Cornfield, Dunker Church, Bloody Lane and Burnside Bridge. Interesting topography.

Sneederbunk

(15,991 posts)
38. In a large context, perhaps the most important battle of the Civil War.
Fri Mar 28, 2025, 01:34 PM
Friday

Turned back Lee's invasion of the North. Ended hopes for foreign recognition of the Confederacy. Allowed Lincoln to issue Emancipation Proclamation.

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