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erronis

(22,660 posts)
Tue May 13, 2025, 06:10 PM May 2025

What Happens If He Defies The Supremes? -- Digby

https://digbysblog.net/2025/05/13/what-happens-if-he-defies-the-supremes/

This piece by Noah Feldman in the NYRB discusses the legitimacy of the court and exhorts liberals and conservatives alike to refrain from degrading its reputation since it’s all we’ve got if we want to preserve democracy. (It’s thought provoking, to say the least, although I find it hard to agree with the notion that holding the court to some kind of ethical standards equals President Trump calling judges communists and blatantly defying the rule of law.)

He’s a liberal who disagrees with many of the Court’s decisions but he holds out hope that they will adhere to the founders vision for the court, who he says saw its primary function was to simply protect the rule of law.

His conclusion:

The chief justice is right to be concerned about Trump’s antijudicial language, which points to the most serious danger that may lie ahead: the administration’s overt defiance of a judicial order. This would amount to denying that the courts have the final authority in the interpretation and application of federal law.

If such an overt defiance were to occur, the courts have some measures available to them, but they may in practice be of limited utility against a determined executive branch. In the event of a judicial finding that an official who knowingly violated a court order was guilty of criminal contempt of court, the official might be pardoned by the president. A civil contempt finding could impose monetary fines on an official, and in theory a court could order the official detained until payment is made. But the arrest would ordinarily be made by the US Marshals, part of the executive branch and housed in the Department of Justice, and they might be directed by Trump not to cooperate with the judiciary. The courts could potentially direct some other person to enforce their orders against an employee of the executive branch. But if Trump were to direct other executive branch personnel to protect the official held in civil contempt, it seems unlikely that a third party could coerce the official into court-ordered custody.

A situation like this, in which a court ordered the Trump administration to act and it flatly refused, would almost certainly qualify as a genuine constitutional crisis. The term “constitutional crisis” is descriptive, not legal. No official definition appears in the Constitution or federal law or Supreme Court precedent. I define a constitutional crisis as a situation in which the Constitution does not provide a clear, definitive answer to a basic problem of governance and the political figures in conflict are ready to press their competing courses of action to the limit.2

The classic American example was Richard Nixon’s refusal to honor parts of the subpoenas served on him for the Watergate tapes.

In such situations, no one can say for certain what the outcome will be. A compromise may resolve the crisis, or one of the two sides may prevail. Congress impeached Nixon, charging him with ignoring the order, among other high crimes and misdemeanors. He turned over some parts of the tapes but not others and subsequently resigned. That outcome seems vanishingly unlikely in any conflict between Trump and the courts.

If Trump were to prevail in a confrontation with the courts, it would be devastating to the rule of law. Perhaps some members of the public would protest. But it is hard to imagine that affecting Trump’s course of action. People in other countries might express shock and condemnation, but again, Trump seems unlikely to care. One would think, indeed hope, that the markets would respond with serious concern. The rule of law protects not only persons but property. Yet it is also conceivable that the markets might think Trump’s (still hypothetical) disobedience would be restricted to noneconomic matters and remain unmoved. After all, markets function even in many autocratic countries. And partial rule of law, restricted to economic matters, is not unknown in the world, historically or today.

If the courts were to prevail, and Trump bowed to their pressure with respect to a given order but remained in office, he might pay very little price. His opponents already see him as a potential dictator. His supporters might not care about his disobedience, especially if he backed down. Trump may have little to lose in experimenting with disobeying judicial orders, even if he precipitates a crisis. As Alexander Hamilton famously observed, the judiciary “has no influence over either the sword or the purse…and must ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm even for the efficacy of its judgments.” That means, ultimately, that the Supreme Court needs the president to believe, or at least to act as though he believes, that violating its interpretation of the law would break the constitutional order. Like it or not, the legitimacy of the Supreme Court is now the most important bulwark of our delicate constitutional democracy.


For some reason that doesn’t make me feel any better. Our norms have eroded so completely that I think half the country (and all of the Republican establishment) no longer believes in any of this and Donald Trump is clearly losing any inhibitions he might had had about respectability, which is what this comes down to. And that’s assuming the court does the right thing in the first place. There’s a very good chance that rather than put this to the test, they will give Trump what he wants in order to preserve a pretense of their own relevance.

I wish I was more optimistic about this but … sigh.
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Blues Heron

(8,378 posts)
3. what do they mean if? Its already happening. Where is Kilmar? trump was ordered to facilitate his return weeks ago.
Tue May 13, 2025, 06:17 PM
May 2025

mahatmakanejeeves

(68,225 posts)
6. "Congress impeached Nixon, charging him with ignoring the order, among other high crimes and misdemeanors."-
Tue May 13, 2025, 06:19 PM
May 2025

I don’t recall that Nixon was impeached. The process was begun, but he resigned before he could be impeached.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_process_against_Richard_Nixon

bucolic_frolic

(54,047 posts)
8. Checks and balances will be dead along with judicial review
Tue May 13, 2025, 06:31 PM
May 2025

My sense is the lower courts and state courts will continue to function to support society at large. SCOTUS will be irrelevant in regards to the Executive, but will continue to issue rulings. Local communities will face a vague common sense regard for the law. Some will obey, some will ignore, a few will defy. Maybe the biggest aid to compliance will be the cost of litigation. Everyone wants to avoid going to court. We may yet muddle through, but it will take great legal minds to repair checks and balances and the regard for SCOTUS.

tavernier

(14,268 posts)
10. I think it is already dawning on Roberts
Tue May 13, 2025, 07:18 PM
May 2025

that the SCOTUS has signed away its authority over anything, and after a period of “token rulings” they will just simply become obsolete.

I don’t see any other way it CAN go since Congress does not have the spine to upset the man who was granted complete power. They might lose their salaries for being yes men; at least up until the time that HE no longer wants to pay their salaries, and no longer requires “constitutional STUFF.”

Blues Heron

(8,378 posts)
11. exactly
Tue May 13, 2025, 07:51 PM
May 2025

the maladministration has been very explicit

Supremes: 9-0 Bring Kilmar back

Trump admin: Negatory, he is not coming back, ever.

Roberts: [emits whining noise]

hatrack

(64,253 posts)
12. Lotsa new, breaking coverage of Hunter's laptop and trans high school athletes!!!
Tue May 13, 2025, 08:18 PM
May 2025

Next question?

 

elocs

(24,486 posts)
13. If you are in search of optimism or hope, DU is not the place to come. Especially GD or LBN.
Wed May 14, 2025, 02:31 AM
May 2025
 

RJ-MacReady

(603 posts)
14. if he does
Wed May 14, 2025, 05:29 AM
May 2025

Then blue states need to follow and disregard court rulings they disagree and watch the hypocrisy.

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