I would just be a wise guy and reply “Joe Biden would never consider doing this.

Not just Joe or Obama didn’t do it. They would not even seriously consider the offer which is the lasting damage—Trump is too stupid to know he’s being played.

Just my two cents to a superb post.

Reframing the conversation is a much more effective way to contrast behaviors without legitimizing false equivalence. It keeps the focus on accountability and the here and now, rather than speculation and variables. A smart and constructive shift—thanks for putting it out there.

I was just getting ready to make that point. You beat me to the draw.

One allows them to hold onto their delusions. The other, directly challenges them to process and defend these indisputable facts. No effin way that they'd give the satisfaction of agreeing but it'll cut right to the bone. I gave up on speaking to cult members. The brief peace it gives helps but too much is at stake.

Guilty as charged 😀

Framing the message correctly is so important. Thanks for this excellent suggestion.

Your two cents are worth, oh about, 400 million.

republicans couldn't get out of bed in the morning without being slammed with scandal after scandal.

every other utterance from donnie would be met lengthy investigations into his "cognitive decline!"
we'd have a sold week of "sleepy don!" stories after he dozed off on his trip.

and all his actual weaponizing of the justice department and irs and shakedowns of universities and law firms would be finally covered as the major scandals they are. remember when the media flipped out when some conservative groups claimed they were unfairly "targeted" by obama's irs? well, now we have a republican administration that's overtly using the irs and doj and ice to target groups and people for political reasons, and the media treats it instead as merely "norm-breaking" or "remarkable" or "unprecedented". i.e., very interesting, but not necessarily negative.

sadly, the media is at this point ridiculously corrupt, whether they realize it or not. the double standard is staggering.

Thanks for the thread EarlG

The reich wing has been reframing ideas for years. Remember "death panels" and "death tax" for example?

Liberals (and even Dems) can do the same thing. The convicted criminal Trump falls asleep during important meetings - we should remind the public and the press whenever we can about his fitness.

And Trump is a convicted criminal. We need to remind everyone whenever we write the convicted criminal Donald Trumps name that he is a convicted criminal (who falls asleep when he should be paying attention during meetings.

See how it works. Repetition can be our friend also, not just the criminal Donald tRump's.

Your explanation is right on target. Worth waaay more than 2 cents.
Thanks, EarlG. Well done!

I think it's a good idea to stay away for even the concept of whataboutism.

I wish the media and the Dems would spend more time framing things in the context of civics...and the Constitution...and the rule of law.

Yes - how we all message matters. Thanks for the logic.

I agree. We need to reframe many aspects of our messaging, and this one could be very helpful. I think that pointing out that no Democrat has ever done this without specifically mentioning Obama or Biden might be good too. I find that any mention of Obama or Biden in any context with maga is bound to go nowhere. They seem to become disassociated from reality just by hearing the names.

I really, really like this

It is so important to separate the things that Trump does that are criminal from everyone else's conduct that never dared cross those lines.

Children in cages with foil blankets happened under Obama before they happened under Trump. And some of the images used to illustrate how horrible Trump was were taken during the Obama administration.
Confiscation of rosaries and bibles happened under multiple administrations (including Obama) before they happened under Trump. And, again, some of the images used to condemn Trump were actually taken when Obama was president.

Despite what we think, especially on immigration, our politicians are not pure as the driven snow.

So yes, frame it as Obama/Biden didn't do this. BUT - also check to make sure that assertion is correct before making it so it doesn't end up as a gotcha. We are often woefully ignorant of a lot of things done in our name. Yes Trump is orders of magnitude worse than Obama or Biden. But let's not give the other side an easy talking point by skipping the fact checking step.

I've been struggling with the 'what-if' thing for a long time. This is such good messaging.

Thank you!

but I never quite put my finger on it. You did ... and expressed perfectly. Thanks for helping me well, think frankly.

Mainly because I've been crazy busy but it's been bugging me forever.

I totally agree. saying “imagine if Obama or Biden did this” plays right into conservative fantasies. They’ve already convinced themselves those guys are villains, so asking them to “imagine” just reinforces their delusions.
Worse, it opens the door for false equivalence. Instead of focusing on Trump’s actual crimes, it invites pointless hypotheticals and lets MAGA supporters say, “You’d be fine with it if Biden did it.
A better move? Stick to facts: Trump did this. Biden didn’t. That draws a clear moral line and avoids giving cover to Trump’s behavior. Thanks for calling this out — it’s exactly the kind of smart framing we need.

Eminently sensible.

Why implicate Dems in wrong doings or unethical conduct when Dem players would refuse to become a party to that sort of questionable conduct.

ReThugs do it without hesitation and/or reservation - Dems would never consider such a thing as EVER being okay.

Dems refuse to cross that line because they cherish the longterm existence of a healthy Democracy. Where as ReThugs have no qualms what so ever of nibbling away at the edges of that same Democracy if personal enrichment or gains can be made. They are wholly devoid of the concepts of Commonweath, Community, and collaboration for the common good.

That is the main reason The United States of America is stuck in no man's land - and rapidly slipping into the darkness of Fascism.

But still ultimately ussless against brainwashed fanatics.

I never thought about it this way, but this makes a ton of sense. I will keep this in mind from here on out!

What aboutism sucks no matter who is doing it, and we should not let ourselves get pulled into it, imo.

Obama and Biden never pulled illegal shit like that. Trump doing it doesn't make it legal, either.

In case that wasn't crystal clear from the beginning, but Trumpanzees tend to have opaque vision. It must come from all that feces-slinging at each other. No wonder their glasses get blocked so quickly..............

"yeah, but Democrat X (insert some messed up false equivalency here)!"

For example, I remember arguing with Republican's in the late 90's about the crimes of Reagan during the Iran-Contra Affair, and it was almost always met with "Yeah, but Clinton had sex with an intern!". Now honest, intelligent people could discern the difference, but we are not talking about those, we are talking about Republicans.

Still worth a try though.

I feel as you do except I think that by saying something like imagine if Biden had done that, you are subtly implying that he could have done that, when we all know that he would never never have done anything like that.

It’s HOW you say it.

n/t

Thanks EarlG!

Much Better.... you should talk to Rep Jeffries.

What you’re recommending is offensive framing that is providing a positive contrast to remind people of the good things Obama and Biden did as opposed to setting off the “what about” false equivalency crap 💩 they specialize in. It’s a very affirmative and positive way of viewing the situation as Lord knows the bastards will never give Obama or Biden their proper respect for all the good they accomplished and the model of Constitutional fidelity and good governance exemplified by the absence of sleaze and corruption they established. So it’s incumbent on us, as you say, to do it! 🤜🏼🤛🏼✌🏼

So many many many of those things. ...nope.

and Clinton got a gift of a rug, honestly equating them with a gift of a $400 million luxury jet.

I don't know if it's ever possible to have a reasoned, good faith discussion with them.

...is going to satisfy.

This bullshit president is beyond any remedy.

It is hard sometimes to remember how we say what we say. I know I need to be more careful. Thanks!

They can’t be reasoned with, period.

You say “Obama / Biden didn’t do that”, they say “He would have if he could have” or “If he had, you’d be all in favor of it.” Very little difference from “What if Obama or Biden had done that.”

There are no reasonable people on his side. They are all fanatics. This country is headed directly toward a civil war of some kind. It will not end well.

My sentiments, exactly.

The mainstream media is already doing conservatives enormous favors with its relentless double-standard treatment of trump, versus Biden and Obama. It is an absolute outrage, and it deserves our strongest possible response. I have enormous respect for EarlG, but I don't feel like blunting my comments in any way, shape or form, in the vain hope that some trump shit-for-brains might suddenly see the light. Might as well hope for something more realistic---like trump mastering the English language.

No, the Dems did not do that. And they never would.

I had noticed that those comparisons were not helpful at all. But with this, if someone wants to argue, they can't directly counter the specific Trump offense. It displays how clearly and starkly 49 is breaking laws or being cruel or acting stupid.

anything remotely similar on any.single.stupid and vicious act, because they were not psychopathic narcissists, and traitors to the constitution or the soul of our country.

Also, something might be suggested about watching cable news. This too is an obvious problem our peeps seem to be glued to. I have a good friend who is as liberal as any one could be, however he is experiencing severe depression, while at the same time feeding into his depression by watching CNN first thing in the morning for hours each day.

It's really sad how his perspective is almost molded by cable news hosts and the framing of the "issues of concern" He commented about Trump becoming more "brazen" every day. An understatement if ever there was, but not a surprise.
I keep pressing him to turn it off as I'm inclined to do it here on DU from time to time.
But it falls on deaf ears, so I give up.

Definitely a very good suggestion in your OP.


\

We are often not careful with our language—apparently not being fully aware of how important language and framing are.

I think we should talk about the people who are coming to our borders as refugees. Not as immigrants.

Calling them immigrants buys into the notion that these are immigrants that are somehow wanting to invade our country. They are not immigrants. They are refugees. Stubbornly using that term will, I believe, completely change the discussion.

You can’t contend that refugees aren’t invading force.

When we talk about Trump we should always call him a dictator. Because that is what he is aspiring to be. He is not a president he is a dictator.

ICE should always be referred to as masked thugs.

We need to remove the legitimacy. Because, in reality, this is entire administration and everyone who is working for them or enabling them are illegitimate.

I usually say “no president in my lifetime has ever pulled this shit even the crooked republicans!”

Adopting this suggestion immediately!

It would be even more powerful to add Reagan and Bush to the list as well.

And while I'm at it, referring to him as a "convicted felon" should be stopped. There are a lot of convicted felons in our midst, they've served their time and I would hope most want to get on with their lives. It's no doubt hard enough to find a job with this on their resume, why continue to disparage them further?

The direct contrast is way more powerful. Thank you so so much for posting this!