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Tanuki

(16,301 posts)
Tue May 20, 2025, 09:12 AM May 2025

Sobering opinion piece from Asia Times: "Worse than a crime, a blunder."

https://asiatimes.com/2025/04/trump-trade-war-its-worse-than-a-crime-its-a-blunder/#

"....America is facing a China that planted its tree at the best time – 30 years ago – with the panicked realization that the best it can do is plant its tree today. China’s universities now produce ~1.7 million engineers per year, an eightfold increase since the turn of the century and approximately 6.7 times the ~250,000 engineers graduating from American universities.

All of China’s achievements are downstream of education. What did people think would happen when Chinese universities increased student enrollment tenfold? Adult education programs quadrupled China’s literacy rate under Mao, setting up the nation’s workforce for Deng’s market reforms. It’s human capital all the way down.
.....
China has pulled ahead of the US in science and technology – probably by a significant margin. This is already difficult for many Americans to accept, but the data is clear. Among the top 20 global research universities ranked by Nature, 14 are Chinese and four are American.


Graphic: Asia

[Graphic chart with rankings at link]
According to a recent report published by the Korea Institute of Science and Technology Information (KISTI), out of ten major research fields, China leads in seven (chemistry, agriculture, environment and ecology, electrical engineering and computer science, engineering and materials science and earth science). The US leads in three (clinical and life sciences, physics and arts and humanities).

According to the report, China is now producing more top 1% papers with fewer total papers published than the US in fields such as chemistry, agriculture, environment and ecology, and electrical engineering. China’s Ministry of Science and Technology has spent the past decade tweaking incentives like phasing out government payments for publications to improve efficiency. "....(more)
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Sobering opinion piece from Asia Times: "Worse than a crime, a blunder." (Original Post) Tanuki May 2025 OP
Trump is digging up our tree Demovictory9 May 2025 #1
He "loves" the uneducated. Martin Eden May 2025 #3
"We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat" Seinan Sensei May 2025 #25
An informed & engaged electorate is essential to the success of our representative democracy Martin Eden May 2025 #29
"I cannot tell a lie: Biden chopped down the tree!" William Seger May 2025 #6
And pouring poison on the roots. tanyev May 2025 #26
And salting the ground! IrishAfricanAmerican May 2025 #35
Very interesting piece Wild blueberry May 2025 #2
One point of sisagreement krkaufman May 2025 #14
" Eradicating the woke mind virus from higher education may be a justifiable political goal" barbtries May 2025 #19
Absolutely roscoeroscoe May 2025 #22
I don't agree with this line: Escurumbele May 2025 #21
Not sure of the stats more recently but Jarqui May 2025 #30
With China turning out 1.7 engeneering grads per year v our 250k... brush May 2025 #4
This has military implications IbogaProject May 2025 #15
You are absolutely correct. Military develpments have made aircraft carrier groud warfare... brush May 2025 #20
I saw TWO pitches for anti-drone technology this week nitpicked May 2025 #33
At least five years ago, a friend's son who spent two years at a Chinese university told me malaise May 2025 #5
Several years ago, one of my brothers traveled to China for work Tanuki May 2025 #12
Yep malaise May 2025 #13
Reagan recognized that we were a "shining city on a hill" William Seger May 2025 #7
The American people havve largely been sold moniss May 2025 #8
MAGAts will say this is why we need Trump's tariffs. CaptainTruth May 2025 #9
China is turning out engineers by the millions and Trump is busy screwing the American people hadEnuf May 2025 #31
Drumpf has lifted his leg on the tree, and the whole Rapeublican party is lined up behind him. ECL213 May 2025 #10
An excellent piece - worth your time to read RainCaster May 2025 #11
You might be interested in some other articles by the author, Tanuki May 2025 #17
Kick. Thank you for posting. bronxiteforever May 2025 #16
You can expect this to get worse now with the Trump admin. The US is losing top scientists to other countries Bev54 May 2025 #18
Meanwhile...... damifino10 May 2025 #23
Noses bleeding, faces spited. mtairyguy May 2025 #24
We're not all that far into it and the damage done to science in this country is irretrievable. It's vandalism at.... NNadir May 2025 #27
None of this is an accident. The Republican war on education started with Reagan. flashman13 May 2025 #28
Great writer...I enjoyed this article stillcool May 2025 #32
Noses bleeding, faces spited. mtairyguy May 2025 #34
THE STUPID BURNS! Xoan May 2025 #36

Martin Eden

(15,366 posts)
3. He "loves" the uneducated.
Tue May 20, 2025, 09:39 AM
May 2025

Without them, he would be nothing but a failed businessman and a has-been reality TV personality.

Of course, he "loves" only himself.

Seinan Sensei

(1,375 posts)
25. "We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat"
Tue May 20, 2025, 12:02 PM
May 2025

Roger Freeman
Advisor to Ronald Reagan
Oct 29, 1970

It’s been downhill ever since

Martin Eden

(15,366 posts)
29. An informed & engaged electorate is essential to the success of our representative democracy
Tue May 20, 2025, 12:16 PM
May 2025

And a threat to fascists & oligarchs

Wild blueberry

(8,134 posts)
2. Very interesting piece
Tue May 20, 2025, 09:31 AM
May 2025

Read the whole thing, makes sense.

Two more quotes:
"All this nonsense, this Ssturm und Ddrang – the Liberation Day tariffs, threatening to annex Canada and Greenland, sending migrants to prison in El Salvador, crushing state capacity with DOGE, laying siege to elite universities etc, etc – is Trump speed-running all other possibilities because he, and the rest of America, knows that the right thing is too little, too late, too difficult and might not work even if attempted."

"And, of course, Trump’s exploration of all possible follies includes rampaging through the crown jewel of America’s education system – its world-class research universities. Eradicating the woke mind virus from higher education may be a justifiable political goal, but to do so by holding research funding hostage and demonizing international students is the height of madness."

Food for thought.

krkaufman

(13,957 posts)
14. One point of sisagreement
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:54 AM
May 2025
is Trump speed-running all other possibilities because he, and the rest of America, knows that the right thing is too little, too late,


Article gives far too much credit for the actions of the Trump administration being a reaction to China’s position. It’s just a lazy, narcissistic grifter interested in nothing but self-enrichment and self-aggrandizement, allowing extremist ideologues to run rampant pursuing their pet agendas.

barbtries

(31,134 posts)
19. " Eradicating the woke mind virus from higher education may be a justifiable political goal"
Tue May 20, 2025, 11:26 AM
May 2025

No it isn't. Empathy and egalitarianism are not viruses, they are human traits that strive for peace and justice.

Escurumbele

(4,021 posts)
21. I don't agree with this line:
Tue May 20, 2025, 11:36 AM
May 2025

"Eradicating the woke mind virus from higher education may be a justifiable political goal"

There is nothing justifiable about a made up significance for a common word. This is BS republicans have made into a meme that people with very little brain repeat to think they are being smart. Not even the people who have written about "woke" have a consensus of what it means, besides of course "just having woke up".

Its going to get worst because republicans goal is to make the USA a very ignorant country, it already is, but they want more, 30% is not enough for them.

Outsourcing is part guilty for what is happening, the USA has exported technology and knowledge to other countries just to make more money, but eventually it would byte because once you loose the "know-how" you are at the mercy of those who know. The "Pan-Am Effect", fly now, pay later...well, now China, India, etc. have began charging more and the "savings" are no longer what they used to be.

Thomas Friedman wrote a book in favour of outsourcing a few years ago, and to me it was ironic how he could not understand the conversation he had with a man from India who owned a Tech company that was making a ton of money from USA outsourced projects, he spelled it out for him. The man said "at this time India is behind the USA in technology, but we are learning fast and the time will come when we will be ahead, and then the real money will begin to pour in." I am paraphrasing, of course but, you get the idea.

I have seen outsourcing at work, and for the most part it is a nightmare, the code has to be cleaned up when it is delivered back to USA, the cost, and time of the resources needed to do that sometimes outweighs the "savings" expected from it. I have seen companies close their outsourcing efforts because in the long run, it becomes too expensive, and some people do understand that it drains the brain power from the USA.

Jarqui

(10,824 posts)
30. Not sure of the stats more recently but
Tue May 20, 2025, 12:19 PM
May 2025

during the Clinton years, when free trade was being examined, about 50% of product innovation ideas or manufacturing improvement came from the shop floor.
When a manufacturing facility is outsourced, 50% of the innovation and improvements go with it. In another country that doesn't respect patents or intellectual property, it gets hijacked, stolen, etc with little recourse.

So, for a short time, the numbers looked good - big cost savings, etc. But now, reality is setting in. Pandora's box got opened. It is between very tough and impossible to get it back.

 

brush

(61,033 posts)
4. With China turning out 1.7 engeneering grads per year v our 250k...
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:20 AM
May 2025

Last edited Tue May 20, 2025, 11:21 AM - Edit history (1)

it's inevitable that China will outdistance us in work product/inventiveness/creativity in the not so distant future...especially with trump/musk/miller cutting educational funding at every turn.

IbogaProject

(5,625 posts)
15. This has military implications
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:59 AM
May 2025

As military equipment and innovation are largely engineering problems. The emerging hypersonic missiles and high speed drones are remaking war. Our doddering multiship carrier groups are soon to be obsolete and we wont be as able to loot and plunder. I want all those profits the wealthy reaped on this selfish self serving war economy repossesed. Military spending is a type of welfare for the wealthy and it creates a group of voters who vote for their jobs against their class interests.

 

brush

(61,033 posts)
20. You are absolutely correct. Military develpments have made aircraft carrier groud warfare...
Tue May 20, 2025, 11:27 AM
May 2025

just about obsolete and trump with his tariffs are making China even more of an enemy in war matters, not to mention the bond and economic markets.

nitpicked

(1,593 posts)
33. I saw TWO pitches for anti-drone technology this week
Tue May 20, 2025, 01:07 PM
May 2025

One was on PBS's Wall Street Week, and the other as a segment on CBS (news, I think).

((Maybe it's sponsored by those claiming "our current technology is NOT obsolete"??))

malaise

(292,884 posts)
5. At least five years ago, a friend's son who spent two years at a Chinese university told me
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:25 AM
May 2025

this was coming.

Tanuki

(16,301 posts)
12. Several years ago, one of my brothers traveled to China for work
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:53 AM
May 2025

and my other brother traveled to Hyderabad, India for his (unrelated) work. They both came back with the same reaction: "We're screwed!"

William Seger

(12,212 posts)
7. Reagan recognized that we were a "shining city on a hill"
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:38 AM
May 2025

... then proceeded to assault it with trickle-down economics and sack it on behalf of the Greedy Oligarchs and Plutocrats.

moniss

(8,732 posts)
8. The American people havve largely been sold
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:44 AM
May 2025

propaganda by their governments and media for many decades regarding the rest of the world.

CaptainTruth

(8,048 posts)
9. MAGAts will say this is why we need Trump's tariffs.
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:46 AM
May 2025

Of course they're wrong, & they don't understand how Trump & Musk are causing a US "brain drain," with researchers & engineers leaving for other countries, but MAGAts seem dedicated to being wrong & not understanding things.

hadEnuf

(3,527 posts)
31. China is turning out engineers by the millions and Trump is busy screwing the American people
Tue May 20, 2025, 12:21 PM
May 2025

and calling tariffs a "strategy" to make us all rich. He is the personification of an idiot-asshole.

Even if tariffs could work it would only be short term gain. Throwing a tantrum and dumping over the chessboard will not solve a thing. The USA's "empire" days have been slipping for years. We need to be competitive and investing in our people, schools, colleges, technology and infrastructure to name a few. Not trying to wring out every last nickel from graduates who have insurmountable debt and giving tax cuts to billionaires to buy their 4th yacht. Trickle-down is complete bullshit; it doesn't work.

Weakening the country and its people is not going to make us competitive. Ever.

ECL213

(431 posts)
10. Drumpf has lifted his leg on the tree, and the whole Rapeublican party is lined up behind him.
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:48 AM
May 2025

RainCaster

(13,385 posts)
11. An excellent piece - worth your time to read
Tue May 20, 2025, 10:52 AM
May 2025

This is a very sobering article, with enough links to large groups of facts backing it up. TSF and his wealthy cohorts have done this to us over decades. The pace has only picked up. Now we are galloping towards that calamity.

Bev54

(13,207 posts)
18. You can expect this to get worse now with the Trump admin. The US is losing top scientists to other countries
Tue May 20, 2025, 11:18 AM
May 2025

now. Countries that have guaranteed that their work will be funded and they will be treated well. South Korea, Japan, China, even Switzerland are all pushing forward and many US elites are being offered positions in Europe.

mtairyguy

(22 posts)
24. Noses bleeding, faces spited.
Tue May 20, 2025, 11:56 AM
May 2025

To me, so much of America wanted, for so many scores of years, to deny Black Americans the benefits of our society that they wound up denying the benefits to almost all, or at least far more than what was intended.

NNadir

(37,310 posts)
27. We're not all that far into it and the damage done to science in this country is irretrievable. It's vandalism at....
Tue May 20, 2025, 12:12 PM
May 2025

...its worst.

flashman13

(2,035 posts)
28. None of this is an accident. The Republican war on education started with Reagan.
Tue May 20, 2025, 12:15 PM
May 2025

The states started cutting support for education at the same time.

The Chinese made higher education a major goal of their nation. We on the other hand thought that education just happens. After all, we are No. 1 and that will go on forever - well - just because.

We have now reached the point where the Republicans just want to get 'em stupid and keep them that way.

stillcool

(34,407 posts)
32. Great writer...I enjoyed this article
Tue May 20, 2025, 12:37 PM
May 2025

giggled in a few spots, held my breath in others. This part

Eradicating the woke mind virus from higher education may be a justifiable political goal
I did find accurate. It may not be the political goal that all Americans ascribe to, but it certainly has been and continues to be for the right wing.

mtairyguy

(22 posts)
34. Noses bleeding, faces spited.
Tue May 20, 2025, 02:37 PM
May 2025

To me, so much of America wanted, for so many scores of years, to deny Black Americans the benefits of our society that they wound up denying the benefits to almost all, or at least far more than what was intended.

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