Most of the greatest artists would be consigned to the ash heap.

JMHO.

would we be able to support his art from his evil actions?

The remark certainly applies to Dylan.
The point being that artists are not responsible to fulfill your aspiration for them.
Bringing in Hitler as the ultimate outlier, is just more
intellectual one-upsmanship.

But I have my own moral and ethical code that prevents me from separating someone's art from their behavior. It certainly isn't intellectual one-upmanship to say that I would not support Diddy's music because of how I saw him brutalize a woman. I view the whole person in context, and not just isolate one part of their life from the rest of their behavior. If I support people's art (financially or otherwise) I am in essence, in my mind supporting their behavior -that can hurt me. I loved Jimmy Stewart's movies until I found out he was a raging bigot. Now I will not support any of his movies because my mind cannot separate what he did offscreen to hurt people who weren't white. So, do whatever makes you feel good; but, it certainly isn't intellectual one-upmanship to say I morally and in good conscience (again, speaking for myself) cannot support any artist who works or has worked against my best interest.

Further, as a discussion forum, I believe my response falls into the framework of the original poster's opinion.

"separate the artist from the art" line of thought. What twaddle. If anyone can be accused of 'intellectual gamesmanship' it is those that wish to practice compartmentalization (with full knowledge of serious issue) because it offers a path of 'comfort' and least resistance. (and less mental strain ?)

Oh, and incidentally - as per the OP - Bob Dylan is probably not a great example of this particular topic. Ted Nugent, Sean Combs, Eric Clapton ... (Mel Gibson? Elon Musk?) Get a little closer to the meat on the bone.

“I hate that you’re beating me with your bare hands, but your watercolor landscapes are amazing.”

It is reasonable to separate the art from the artist. It is also reasonable for one’s opinion of an artwork be informed by the character, opinions, or behavior of the artist.

Because that is the next step.
Which is degenerate art?

Wagner? Picasso? who's?

Are you able to distinguish criticism of a person from destruction of artwork?

If so, then why do you imagine that others are not equally capable?

The Nazis famously destroyed art they felt was created by those morally corrupt accordant to their "standards".
Moral rectitude applied to art is a slippery slope.
This is my only point.

other is individuals saying this artist's behavior is seriously hurting me and I don't support it. I think you are of the impression that this is a one way street. The artists can do whatever he/she feels like;on the other side of the street is the consumer who has the right to say I reject this. It's a two way street. Both the artist and the consumer have the right to act on their conscience. And certainly one of my standards is racism. Are you therefore saying it I don't support a racist artist then that's a slippery slope?

My point is about the application of moral superiority and where it leads.

Do you consider the act of feeding the poor to be morally equivalent to starving them?

Or do you acknowledge the moral superiority of one versus the other?

By what enlightened sensibility are you capable of such discernment even as you insist that others are not?

Lots of Boomers love him. Whatevs. This place is happy to jump all over more contemporary artists who disappoint us in one way or another.

Dylan isn't a good guy. Never was, IMO. I personally never liked his music. It's not that I don't like folks music. I just don't like HIS music. I realize that's almost heresy among people a little older than me.

For a lot of folks who romanticize the protest culture 60's and early 70's, the idea that someone that was an icon of the music of that era might actually be a BAD guy is hard to swallow. I get it. It's easy for me since his nasally voice if fingernails on chalkboard.

...but I was never "cool" about how I chose my music. I didn't see a need to be. I like what pleases me. Others are free to do the same.

Last edited Thu Jul 3, 2025, 01:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Thank you

There's a lot more positives about Bob Dylan that could be added. Is he a saint? Of course not. But in his life, he has done a ton of good. I really have no idea what terrible thing or things he supposedly did that were so horrible it proves he's "not a good guy". Sounds to me like his worst offense is somebody doesn't like his voice.

we lived it and are so disappointed that the younger generations don't get it. My gen x child and sil doesn't get it. Our millennial child and sil get it completely. A trumper in law that we see on holidays, is always trying to get me to put down Bob Dylan, I just respond, I don't know where you could of heard such a thing, and then say something positive about him. Bob Dylan no longer has a nasally voice, but I loved it, "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." I don't know which way your wind is blowing.

He was a real poet and his songs will live on

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind

He moved on. I moved on. We all move on.

Dylan wrote more than a few songs that were covered by other singers/bands over the years, so if you want to ditch his music you need to read the liner notes to see who wrote the songs.

get his name out there. But, he has written a lot of songs people recognize.

Over 600 musicians have recorded covers of Bob Dylan's songs, resulting in over 1,500 covers of nearly 300 unique songs, according to Wikipedia. A website dedicated to Dylan covers notes that they have cataloged over 105,000 covers of Dylan's songs, with more being added daily.
Some notable artists who have covered Dylan's songs include:

Jimi Hendrix: Covered "All Along the Watchtower," "Like a Rolling Stone," and others.

The Byrds: Known for their interpretations of Dylan's songs, including "Mr. Tambourine Man".
The Rolling Stones: Covered "Like a Rolling Stone".
Adele: Recorded a popular version of "Make You Feel My Love".
Various artists: Have covered songs like "Blowin' in the Wind," "The Times They Are a-Changin'," and many more.

I knew that many had covered his songs, but I didn't know how many exactly. That's the source of most of his income over the years. I guess people like his music, eh?

called "I Shall Be Unreleased" - contains "Fairwell Angelina", "Love Is Just a Four-Letter Word", "Blind Willie McTell" and many others, all covered by different artists

Even I recorded his "...Watchtower".
And, I was just a semi-pro musician, but felt a need to do my own version of that song.

I don't know Dylan's politics and to be honest, I don't really care

Anyone who wrote songs like Blowin n the Wind, Times are Changin, Master of War, and many more, can't be as bad as some think.

He has a long history of song making. There's something for just about everyone in the list of his songs.

My point is that we should not insist that everyone must be politically in tune with us at all times. I celebrate his early songs for what they are. The ones I don't care for, I ignore. It is the songs, not Dylan. They stand on their own merits.

Let's not forget those radical Leftist supporters of Bernie Sanders who adamantly refused to support Hillary Clinton when their guy lost the primary against Hillary -- not to mention Sanders refusal to endorse Hillary early on and work to elect her. As for Bob Dylan -- let's not forget his support for Farm Aid and all those concerts he and Willie Nelson did (and others) to support Farm Aid in all those agricultural states in the US Heartland for all these past years.

*gets out rubber ESTABLISHMENT stamp* Sorry, Bob.

They seem to have held up Dylan as an icon, both musical and political, for ages, and when Dylan hasn't been the activist they'd imagined, they've assumed all sorts of bad things about him, and want others to follow in this "Dylan has fallen from a great height to a great depth" belief.

It really seems a distraction from politics. Please, everyone, don't start more GD threads about it. The DUer just has to work out their own feelings.

I too read a few things ... And more or less came away thinking, "what, really, is the issue or problem here .. ?" Is there something recent .. ? Which appears not to be the case.

Are the "heroes" we've been looking for. Unfortunately, it's much easier to blame someone else than it is to take responsibility and rise to the challenge.

Thank you for the post, MM. ❤️

That is true for most people, really.

As for that song, the times are always changing. That is its truth.

Some folks appear to be outraged that celebrities, especially those they have projected some sort of magic powers onto, havent and aren’t going to save democracy

Celebrities aren’t here to serve us, or to save us. Saving democracy is our job, all of us, in whatever ways, big or small, we can manage.

We love them until they don't do what we think they should. Then, we hate them. It's an irrational reaction.

I have a favorite period of Bob Dylan's music. But that's the extent of my expectations of him or any other musician. Beyond that, they're on their own, just as I expect to be left alone to follow my own path.

Quite a life he's had so far. I'm 80 and I'm a fan.

We've seen a lot, haven't we? It's all been very interesting.

He's probably still surprised every morning that he survived the 1960's.

We appreaciate visual, auditory, and written art by the feelings and thoughts they invoke in us.

Art has inherent value -- apart from the artist, who may not fully embody or live up to the ideas in the art they created. Artists are human beings. As such they have flaws, and can change for "better or worse" (subjective judgments) during the course of their lives.

Which does not change the inherent value of the art they created.

In the art of music, I'm a big fan of The Kinks. I think Ray Davies is a genius, if such a term can be applied to a writer of popular songs. I've read that Ray could be a real jerk at times, an egotistical tyrant especially towards his own brother (a very underrated guitarist who created some great riffs that influenced the course of rock music).

Which does not change my fondness for The Kinks. Heck, I still like the instrumental "Hibernation" by Ted Nugent, whom I thoroughly despise as a person.

There is Art, and there is the Artist. They cannot be entirely separated, but it is possible to reject one and not the other.

What's my point?

Essentially, I'm agreeing with the OP. Artists don't always meet our expectations. Take what you like, discard the rest . Don't let their evolution (or devolution) burst your bubble.

It is not wise to reside inside a bubble.

The art and the artist may not be the same thing. Sometimes it is, I suppose, but I've never been one to equate a work with the artist who created it. I'm always interested in learning something about the artist, but my opinion of the work is not dependent on my knowledge of the artist. If it were, I would probably dislike a lot of art that I like very much.

I’m a decade or so behind you and Bob, so my initial exposure was definitely his “transitioned” music. Only later did I start exploring his more traditional folk catalog. Both catalogues are impressive for their compositions and lyrical messages, and I dare say that much of his music will still be listened to long after any of us have departed.

I never had the chance to see him live, but as it happens he is performing at Willie Nelson’s 4th of July concert in Austin tomorrow and my wife and I are going. Never saw Willie either, so it’s an opportunity to see and hear two music icons. I won’t be thinking about either’s political views while I listen to their music. Does that make me a bad Democrat? I don’t think so, just one musician enjoying the artistry of two giants in the world of music. Politics will still be there come Monday morning.

Something about seeing a musician performing in the later years of life. You get to see the soul of the music and of the person. Enjoy!

I like music from people who have good singing voices.

Thanks for letting us know that.

I agree with you, he's his own man.
I remember when he went electric; it was a bit traumatic, but we moved on as he also did.
Life is that way. Other, younger folks will take up the challenge. People like Bruce Springsteen.

I see nothing to be gained by criticizing Dylan for not taking a stand on the front line in this struggle.

I sort of lost track of Dylan, really, although I did know some of the other things he wrote.

I laughed, though, at the reaction to his plugging in the guitar. I also realized that the days of acoustic folk music had just about run out. They ran from the 50s through the 60s, and then faded, as things do. Something else took folk's place. It was good, too. It's all good, really.

I was a counselor at a camp in the Catskills, near Woodstock, N. Y. in the mid-1960s (shortly before the Festival, when it was mostly well-known on the east coast as a celebrity retreat). All the locals knew about Big Pink, however, and on days off when one of us had a car, we used to cruise past it, hoping to spot Dylan. All we ever saw were members of his back-up band often hanging around outside At that time, however, it was before they were known in caps, as The Band. Yep, I just turned eighty myself.

.

aware of him. I'm 74 years, sang Where Have All the Flowers Gone, by Pete Seeger, at my 8th grade graduation. I grew up less than 10 miles from Fort Ord, California. We understood war and for the most part all the student's parent's were the working poor, at my elementary school. We knew what the song meant, the school would only let us sing the the first verse. I have loved folk music, still do. I also still love and appreciate Bob Dylan, seeing him go electric was no big to deal to me. My husband and I have seen him twice, we all change. Peter, Paul and Mary, Woodie Guthrie, his son, Arlo, loved them. Right now, I just listen to the Beatles station, whenever driving in the car. I love most music. People have been complaining about Bob Dylan from his beginnings. I understand and know what they say, but I just don't know why people get so upset about his changes in music style.

We all have a different memory of that period, depending on our age and other things.

There is a period in everyone's life where the music of their time gets deeply implanted in their brains. It never leaves.

Bob Dylan is an icon for a generation that tried to make our country compassionate and not just capitalism worshippers. People who are dumping on him don't understand what his importance is.

Probably, such people don't really know all that much about the artist, either.

...Prince, whose worldview changed dramatically over the years. Like Dylan, Prince was often not terribly subtle in the ways that worldview influenced his art. Even at the peak of his career (Purple Rain, Sign 'o the Times), you could see the internal struggles. One influential music history prof of mine mentioned the similarity between Little Richard and Prince--"they were either singing about religion or about carnal pleasures, and usually both to an equal degree".

For a while, Prince dabbled in Islam, and then converted to the Jehovah's Witnesses. By the end of his career, he was bowdlerizing the rather...earthy...lyrics of his early work, or simply not performing that material at all. He sometimes gave interviews that read more like sermons, at least on his part.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expurgation ( aka "bowdlerization" )

I guess the lesson here is a bit like the old saying, "you really don't want to meet your heroes". Except in this case, it's more like, "the more you know about your heroes, the greater the likelihood they won't be your heroes anymore". The conclusion I eventually drew is that no one is a hero, and everything needs to be viewed critically. That's a painful lesson, however, when it comes to the art and artists that influenced one's youth.

Of those activists who throw red paint at museum art.

He was like the Lewis and Clark expedition learning about what lies across the land as well as himself as he took on the adventure. In his case, as an artist, he was learning his own potential and following his interests while testing his limitations to see what he could do. Fans tried to box him in and he got tired of retreading his steps. He took risks.
The things he did, the ground he broke, and his contributions to changing times all were real and important. He is his own man, though, and we should let him walk his path without throwing stones at him.

The recent movie gave a little insight into those, though. I doubt that he was a great catch, really. But, then again, I don't know about myself in that regard, I suppose.

Music fans are historically very fickle. They want something, and love you if you provide that. If you change or stop giving them what they want, they'll probably abandon you abruptly

Good example is Ricky Nelson, someone nobody much thinks of these days. His song, "Garden Party" is about his fans abandoning him. He didn't live long enough to regain a strong fan base, sadly.

and run up to the Iraq war,

The AM Radio stations were literally banned from playing 100 of the top Vietnam War protest songs, and it is still true today......

I find my self playing Barry McGuire's? song..... EVE OF DESTRUCTION and Buffy St Marie's UNIVERSAL SOLDIER almost weekely....

Those and many many more of the Viet Nam anti-war songs, are available on You Tube, with the original Videos of them performing........

How many times must this topic be raised
Before we can call it enough?

How many posts will it take 'til we know
That too many posts have been made?

And how many times will the arguments rage
Before people end the debate?

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind
The answer is blowing in the wind

It made me sick enough that I just closed up my iPad and walked away. It is the kind of thing that is driving me away.

TY for your input, your memories, your perspective, your accuracy. Monterey Folk Festival of 1963 is the stuff of legend — I’m in awe that you were there.

You hit the big 80 about 2 months before I do. I, too, was steeped in folk music — there was a group of us in high school who would gather before classes and just sing. I couldn’t afford vinyl albums, but I memorized everything I heard & when I read the lyrics, the music played back in my head.

As for Dylan — never liked his voice. But everything he wrote that other people recorded was amazing. I don’t understand people who get rabidly invested in their fantasy of a performer acting out the fantasies of their fans.

And I surely don’t understand why there are people who want to rip apart an old artist who built his career 60 years ago. They desperately need to start their own projects — I’m getting tired of the crowd-chants from BushCheney’s invasion of Iraq almost 25 years ago, they are lame by now, and I want something new from Peter, Paul, and Mary, dammit!

Oh right, I forgot — two of them are dead now. In fact, Pete Seeger is dead too. Harry Belafonte — dead. Woody Guthrie of course is long, long gone. Hey, half the Beatles died long ago as well. Anyone in our age category who is still walking around above ground, much less still composing and performing, deserves a nod of respect, not a barrage of rotten tomatoes.

Time for the youngsters to write their own protest music.

Soon enough, we'll be gone as well. I'm saddened to see things deteriorating. I had higher hopes than that.

Some will say, "good riddance." Too bad....

Instant adds to my ever-expanding ignore list.

Purity testers are a scourge to the Democratic Party and our democratic republic.

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but I've never cared for him as a person. Much too self-absorbed. Personally, I don't care if he writes any more protest songs. I still wouldn't like him. The world is full of talented songwriters.

I don't necessarily believe every story someone tells about him, either. He probably is pretty self-absorbed. Many talented people are. However, I don't know the man. You're lucky to know him, I think.

to make assumptions about someone I don't know, but of what I believe I know of him, I seriously doubt I would care for him.

Forgive me, as this could be primarily through a woman's perspective based on the many self-absorbed men I have known. As I get older, my tolerance level for such people is seriously diminished in spite of any talent they may have. No amount of talent or genius, excuses the way someone treats other people.

I suppose I should count myself lucky.

Last year I did attempt to explain to 2 lefty kids perusing CDs in a thrift store and trashing him as a "Zionist" that he was >80, and almost everyone over 80 is a Zionist. It's the default setting for older Americans. Especially Jews. FFS.

I’ll remember that, instead of trying to explain the personal angst and agony of living with the phenomenal changes in a country we had so much hope for that we all learned folk songs about them.

Of course, that rather goes for America as well. Heartbreaking either way.

said, to my surprise, that she WASN'T an Anti-Zionist. "Israel exists; that's a fact. Acknowledging that means you're a Zionist".