But fuck the Oligarchy. Furthermore, it will benefit their businesses. It would boom the entire economy and people would have more money to buy their stupid cars and software.

like crap. AI will continue to displace workers and corporate greed will put profits over people.

Current government assistance covers some of the bases. LIHEAP, SNAP, SSI, rent relief or rebates in some areas for example.

Comparisons will be made to Covid-era STIM checks, which dumped a little money on the poor and more on high-middle incomes earners, and doubled SNAP ... and emptied store shelves and set the basis for inflation.

If you're going to consume in one area, you have to fund it from another, otherwise it just devalues the currency over the long term which is to say creates inflation.

I defer to your superior analysis.

NT

… supply chain disruptions as anything else. Inflating M1 contributed, too.

Can you define the term M1? Economics is not my strong point.

M1 = cash, checking accounts, small short term savings that can be withdrawn on demand (with or without penalty). IIRC.

You should probably start a Thread on the Intersection between Economics and Politics especially as it applies to our Current Political Situation. Thanks for commenting.

Especially when landlords can refuse them if that's their only source of income. There are people getting disability checks that are homeless right now. We need to fix the housing infrastructure to solve the homelessness crisis. Public housing must be reinvested in.

Public Housing yes, but also Psychological and Social Support for the Homeless. Many have Psych Problems. It is a complex ball of wax.

Sophisticated strategies. For instance, I like Utah's (former?) program that alsmot entirely solve their homeless problem at a bargain.

I have to look into, but Utah isn't one of the most populated States and people their probably have a higher medium income so not as many homeless as other States.


I think we already know the blue print for addressing the homelessness crisis. We've done it before. Going to take public housing and mean traditional public housing also called housing projects and some refer to it as section 9. We have lost 100 of thousands of public housing stock sense 1994. We had public house stock at 1994 levels. We could house over half the U.S. homeless population. If we put just 1 person in each unit let alone entire families. If we decided to do more of them to account for increased population we could probably solve almost all homelessness. Section 8 or vouchers were republican ideas there better then nothing, but absolute failures compared to the success of public housing projects. Housing projects were by no means perfect, but it's the best alternative that has precedent. Rich people scammed poor people out of public housing with propaganda, lies and misinformation. Told tenet's they could live in the new apartment they built. Didn't happen. Told everyone neighborhoods would be better, because projects cause crime. Well so do mass homeless encampments. All a campaign of misinformation just so big real estate firms could get their hands on the properties they sat on. Sometimes they built new apartments not for the tenet's of the projects though, and sometimes they just let those properties sit vacant for decades.

But when they try to get them to leave, advocates discretely complain, many don't. Often they say sure and a few weeks later are back on the streets. They are not well, or if you like restricting mental illness to fewer people, "different-valued and -goaled." Demand for housing still >> supply, but with with supply = demand there'd still be a fair number of homeless.

This is Houston, not a red city.

If UBI is legislative dependent: what Congress can give another Congress can take away. A business cannot really rely on something this big that could be here today and gone tomorrow.

We see that with the constant Republican attacks on ACA: it will only take one Congress that does not give a crap to make ACA go away with a single session.

My capitalization problem is a quirk that I had from studying philosophy as an undergrad. In some philosophy they capitalize nouns for emphasis. So I recognize that for some people it is not Standard American English. It is just how I write.

I don't read or write German but that is where I got it from.

I appreciate the comment. I know that. I am kind of stuck writing rough drafts like that. Thanks for your candor.

Universalbasicincome.

Right On. If we could get UBI and Medicare for All that would be a great political accomplishment. Medicare For All should have private insurance on top of basic Medicare (if someone wants it and can afford it). The Super Rich will always have access to high level medicine regardless. So three tiers- Medicare For All, Supplemental Private Insurance, and Platinum Level Care for the Super Rich. I am not a Fan of some in the so called Billionaire Class but we need to get some of them on our side. Gates is the best example of how a Responsible Businessman should act. More can be said but I will leave off for now.

even after getting them to sleep under their desks.

The day of automation, robots, and AI is going to replace almost everyone is here.

Nixon was enthralled with the idea but even with the support of an asshole like Nixon it went nowhere. Now,
here in the second decade of the 21st Century something is going to have to be done to replace incomes of all the workers who
will soon be displaced from the workforce by Artificial Intelligence. There are going to be millions who will be displaced in the next
5 years.

We haven't even been able to get universal healthcare through for the same reason, imo.

There's a point to the design of the pieces. Used to be studied back in the '70s in history classes where I came from.

Now it might be taught, but whatevs. "When am I ever going to use this?"

We need to recruit more high level establishment Dems and anti-MAGA Republicans to this Site. There are a lot of good people and ideas here and word needs to get out. Pod Save America, Dr. Maddow, Tim Miller, Bryan Taylor Cohen (sp?) should at least have some Staff and Assistants following DU. More ideas are on the way.

Maybe UBI should be $20, 000 thousand or $30,000 thousand a year? More for Families. I dont know, I am not an economist and I do not have the numbers. I would add that UBI could be supplemented by a part time job. And a Recipient could go off of UBI if they could earn more than say $ 20,000 dollars above their base of UBI and part time pay combined. All that money would mostly feed Landlords, Supermarkets, and Pharmacies. The Economy would boom. Crime would go down significantly as people would not have to resort to desperate acts to survive. Word needs to get out. This is a decent policy idea. Feel free to cut, paste and edit this post and send this information to your elected officials.

is just that - universal, regardless of income, work (part time or full time). The same amount goes to everyone who receives it, whether they work, don't work, etc.

Not saying it's necessarily a bad idea, but how much would be paid and how it would be paid for matters.

UBI is a good idea but it needs to be formulated by some Policy Experts who have the Policy and Economic Background to establish such a Policy. Thanks for participating in this discussion. Every effort helps.

$13 trillion per year.

With zero deductions allowed. For example, someone making $250k would pay $100k in income taxes.

All income under $100k is taxed at 25%. All anti poverty programs could be eliminated as well as they wouldn't be needed.

I don’t know too many people who would be in favor of taxation that high.

The $100k taxation on $250k would then end up being $50k out of pocket, so to speak. Probably close to what they are paying already.

~$10 trillion (rough estimate based on 2023 tax stats), and eliminating poverty programs would save ~$500 billion.

Add in ~$700 billion for other tax payments (not including payroll taxes, as those are dedicated), and now we're at about $11.2 trillion available to spend.

Outlays under this plan would include non-discretionary spending (again, not including SS or Medicare), coming in at ~$1.2 trillion, discretionary spending at ~$1.7 trillion, interest on the debt at about $660 billion, and UBI at ~$13 trillion, for a total of ~%16.5 trillion.

So, and again, just ballpark figures, we're looking at a deficit (one year) of around $4 trillion.

And although the inefficiencies of taking money just to send it back would a small rounding error in the overall numbers, it would seem to make more sense to just give a flat $52,000 tax credit on taxes owed rather than take and then send it back.

Right On MichMan. Good numbers. Thanks for the good work.

How much revenue would that tax plan generate? This needs a New Thread. Titled-- "Universal Basic Income II."

in this thread...based on 2023 tax info.

Can you repeat and repost those numbers here? Could MichMan's tax plan work or not? What would the total tax revenues be under that Plan? What about savings from the elimination of other anti-poverty programs?

Also, we need to post a fresh thread as "Universal Basic Income II" to hash out these numbers and get new readers. This discussion bears repeating. What follows below is a cut and paste of the new thread OP unless you or MichMan can post something clearer on the New Thread. The comment below is me responding to MichMan's comment followed by his statement.

To MichMan--

Can I repost your comment on the UBI Thread as an OP for a New Thread? I think that you might have solved the tax revenue problem that could establish UBI as a Policy that could be implemented. I would note that it is your work on the Body of the OP. Alternately, you could post it as well. Let me know. Here is a cut and paste of your comment.--

"What about taxing all income over $100k at 50% and all income over $500k at 75% ?

With zero deductions allowed. For example, someone making $250k would pay $100k in income taxes.

All income under $100k is taxed at 25%. All anti poverty programs could be eliminated as well as they wouldn't be needed.

It's post #75 on this thread, you can easily look it up.

I wasn't talking to you. I was responding to Mich Man not you.

People on UBI would be able to live life with some dignity. I think that the entertainment industry would boom as well. Hobbies and sports also. People would have much more free time to live life and pursue past times, including these sectors of the economy. So this would create a booming Peace Time Economy. And people who want to work or have some sort of mission would be free to pursue that.

That would be $6.7 Trillion dollars per year. It's simply not feasible.

You're right. Has it not been done in Europe? Unfortunate. I guess that the goal must be to defend Social Security at this point. Damn it. It was not a half bad idea. Thanks for the comment.

Unless we could grow the Overall Economy. What is the Current GDP? What if the UBI and the Private Sector boomed the Economy and increased the Overall Size of the Economy? Maybe?

Current American GDP is just under $30 Trillion Dollars. Ask Patty Hinich from PBS. She is a Chef and a Policy Analyst. I think that UBI might work.

Hmm...

the government spends $5 Billion per DAY.

Wealth isn't income.

My wealth is a lot greater than my income. Some's inheritance, but savings, interest/dividends, appreciation is where the action is.

And a lot of that is in non-cash assets. You take $3 trillion in stock and liquidate it over 6 months, who's going to buy it? All the people with enough money would be selling their own stock so the only way it would get bought is if people that don't have that much money buy it, meaning the price would have to first plummet. But then it wouldn't net you $3T in revenue.

Same for property. How many $5 million homes would sell and settle within 10 months?

And if you're only targeting the top 0.5% that value loss would extend to them, as well. And people like me, with a base salary under US median but who has my retirement account mostly in stocks. (Oh--and it wouldn't affect just me, but every retirement account, from Mass. to CalPERS.

That kind of thing happened in 2008 and 2009 with consumer real estate. Flood the market with assets for sale ... And the selling price will be set by the buying public or the asset won't be sold. We waited, got this house, then 3 years old, at a 62% discount from the previous tax appraisal (which was actually the same as comps). Paid $0.38 on the dollar. Every $100,000 in value, we paid $38,000. The REIT made some money on flipping the house, but the institution caught holding the bag lost a ton of $.

wouldn't even double US income tax revenue which is currently about 2.6 Trillion. That would not get us anywhere near the $6.7 Trillion it would cost to give each adult $20,000 annually.

And then, tack on multi millions of dollars just to administer the program.

The numbers just aren't there.

Take all the money from the U.S. billionaires, and you'd have almost enough for one year of UBI at $20k/adult.

No they don't need code writers. One person can control hundreds of robots.

Thanks for commenting and posting a good video that is relevant to this discussion. [My language is a bit stereotyped due to some autism so please excuse me. I am doing my level best.]. Anyway, the video is less than 15 minutes long which is an ideal time for a political video from YouTube or whatever other source. Thanks again.

They have known for 40 years. This was talked about by my professors when I took robotics in college. Again, it was talked about when I worked for a contractor upgrading systems to automation.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/09/futurist-adam-dorr-robots-ai-jobs-replace-human-labour

This thread is almost trending so we need more recs so that more people can read what you good folks have written here. So maybe recommend it and maybe have your friends take a look at this thread. It is worth reading. The UBI idea might appeal to some tech people and others that DU might not normally reach.

I know that UBI is a Tech Bro kind of idea, but it might work as a Democratic Policy. It would vastly simplify the Federal Bureaucracy. All Federal Workers that lose their jobs in the Process would be eligible for UBI and could go off of UBI if they were willing and able.

I would add that the NIH and the other Agencies and Departments that have been damaged by this current Administration need to be restored. I think Democrats allied with some more Moderate Republicans could retake the House and Senate in 2026 and we could get past the American Trauma that we have gone through these past six months. Constructive and Reasonable comments are welcome and I am always open to corrections and discussion.

Personally, I think UBI may be a tall order.

What I would like to see in our party's platform...
1) Medicaire for all.
2) Hard limits on Executive power.
3) Abolition of ICE and DHS.
4) Repeal of the Patriot Act.
5) New Voting Rights Act.
6) Admit DC and Puerto Rico as states.

What I would like to see accomplished during successive administrations...
1) Abolition of the Senate.
2) Increase size of the Supreme Court and limit terms to twenty years.
3) Legislate Citizens United into oblivion.

Just my two cents...

What I would like to see in our party's platform...
1) Medicaire for all - possible, with elimination of filibuster
2) Hard limits on Executive power - probably impossible, as it would take a Constitutional Amendment
3) Abolition of ICE and DHS - possible, with elimination of filibuster
4) Repeal of the Patriot Act - possible, with elimination of filibuster
5) New Voting Rights Act - possible, with elimination of filibuster
6) Admit DC and Puerto Rico as states - possible, with elimination of filibuster

What I would like to see accomplished during successive administrations...
1) Abolition of the Senate probably impossible, as it would take a Constitutional Amendment
2) Increase size of the Supreme Court and limit terms to twenty years - probably impossible, as it would take a Constitutional Amendment to abolish lifetime terms
3) Legislate Citizens United into oblivion - possible, with elimination of filibuster

Not that I'm in favor of all of these, but even the ones I like I don't see happening anytime in my lifetime.

I would not abolish the Senate though. We need seasoned and experienced politicians as well as new blood. So I agree with most of your platform ideas. We need more smart young folks like AOC but also experienced people in the Senate. I have full faith that AOC will be in the Senate some day.

I'm against it as well, biggest reason being that there is no way to pay for it.

Has this not been tried Overseas? I will look into it. Addenda- Finland did a pilot program back in 2017 and 2018. It may be an idea whose time has not yet come. Maybe further research is necessary.

by setting up a funding source, by taking it from the billions, if not trillions, from the recent ICE increase.

Either free or on a sliding scale.

On the other hand, a pilot program somewhere gave poor people like $200/month for 6 months or so, and rather surprisingly, it was generally spent wisely.

Great comment.

close to $7 trillion per year for a $20,000 UBI for every adult in America. A trading tax wouldn’t come close to paying for that.

Add 10 more years to this trading tax proposal and it will self-fund itself with sufficient funds and resources to accomplish these goals. The Social Security Trust itself wasn't fully funded for years either after it was initially implemented in the 1930's.

The money has to be paid out in the tax year, no?

So, bring in $2.6 trillion to pay a $7 trillion bill, and what is left to invest? And where does the other $4.4 trillion come from to pay for the first year?

Using the numbers from July 8, dollar volume of trades was $332,507,515,420, for an average share price of $38.71.

While someone trading $500 shares might not mind a .2% tax, someone trading $35 shares most likely would mind paying a 2.8% tax.

Not to mention that $20,000 isn't enough for anyone to live on...another poster suggested $52,000/year, which is a more realistic amount, but then the cost becomes even higher.

It’s giving $750 a month to 100 low income households. It’s targeting a poor area of town and targeting families where kids have high absenteeism. Program also includes financial counseling.

Program has. $4 million dollar budget with half coming from cannabis taxes.

So - I can see blue states doing it. NM is not exactly among the richest states - but it cares about its people - great governor. We know Congress never will as they are too busy funding wars.

"Universal" means that everyone gets it, regardless of income.

before he turned against it, hoping to keep the support of republicans.

https://jacobin.com/2016/05/richard-nixon-ubi-basic-income-welfare/

The oligarchs would outright gun down most of the population before they'd ever agree to it.

We will never get that. No Dem is going to push that and risk offending "the other party", no matter how much it would help everyone.

We will retake the House next year

Is that it’s never ever going to happen in this country. Literally 0.0 percent chance.

On robots and AI.

UBI will help some and others not at all. Germany has no UBI, but she dealt with people whose situations made them "as good as." At the end of each month, she was pleading with landlords not to kick them out into the street for not paying rent, bringing them sandwiches and other food into her office because they had blown so much of their monthly stipend on alcohol and cigarettes, both of which are expensive here in Germany. Just taking other people's tax money and blindly stuffing it into other people's pockets with no conditions at all is only going to work with those people who have the self-discipline to use the money to better their lives. Just as there are tens of millions of Americans who vote Republican even if it means their getting less or no medical care, and having less of a chance at finding work, so, too, can one find people wanting UBI in order to be having nicotine fits and begging for food at the end of each month. Many of them need help and counseling if they are going to profit from state generosity. Without that, plenty of them will never crawl out of the hole they are in. Social workers cry and rage because there are so many that don't even want to. It's not as easy as it sounds.