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angrychair

(11,669 posts)
Wed Jul 9, 2025, 09:13 PM Jul 2025

No Country For Old White Men

I think this weird obsession with undocumented immigrants is bizarre but it's also the stupidest and most costly way to address the situation.

So far this seems more about terrorizing and harassing the poor and disenfranchised and less about actually addressing the issue they seem so concerned about.
If they actually wanted to address the issue in the most efficient and cost effective way they would arrest the business owners that hire them.

No need for tanks or snipers or Marines or concentration camps or thousands of people. Just a couple of people to arrest a single business owner. You arrest a bunch of rich old white men I bet you will get their attention.
Its clear their goal is not to fix their made up problem but to cause all of us very real and serious problems

6 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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No Country For Old White Men (Original Post) angrychair Jul 2025 OP
correct. creon Jul 2025 #1
Agreed MichMan Jul 2025 #2
this was posted in another thread, this guy nails it Skittles Jul 2025 #3
The goal is to establish oppression and make sure everyone sees it. paulkienitz Jul 2025 #4
Because they also get due process. Igel Jul 2025 #5
This is ridiculous angrychair Jul 2025 #6

MichMan

(16,624 posts)
2. Agreed
Wed Jul 9, 2025, 11:20 PM
Jul 2025

Make it so risky to hire anyone undocumented that employers won't take the chance, and will fire anyone they even suspect is undocumented. Not worth it.

Pretty much makes anyone undocumented unemployable. People facing homelessness and hunger for their families will self deport.

Skittles

(169,516 posts)
3. this was posted in another thread, this guy nails it
Wed Jul 9, 2025, 11:27 PM
Jul 2025

they are driven by their fear at loss of status

paulkienitz

(1,500 posts)
4. The goal is to establish oppression and make sure everyone sees it.
Thu Jul 10, 2025, 12:17 AM
Jul 2025

It puts fear into the opposition and reassures the fascist MAGA base that despite all the malfeasance, Trump really is the president they want. The MAGAts don't care about good government or sound policy or balancing the budget — they just want to see that nonwhite people are told loud and clear that they are no longer equal citizens with rights. That's what they wanted and that's what they support Trump for.

Igel

(37,359 posts)
5. Because they also get due process.
Thu Jul 10, 2025, 07:34 AM
Jul 2025

If you're in the country and aren't documented, you're deportable on that basis. They show you're not authorized for entry or continued residence, done and dusted.

If you're an employer hiring somebody authorized, the law looks simple enough:

It is unlawful for a person or other entity—
(A)to hire, or to recruit or refer for a fee, for employment in the United States an alien knowing the alien is an unauthorized alien (as defined in subsection (h)(3)) with respect to such employment, or
(B)
(i)to hire for employment in the United States an individual without complying with the requirements of subsection (b) or (ii) if the person or entity is an agricultural association, agricultural employer, or farm labor contractor (as defined in section 1802 of title 29), to hire, or to recruit or refer for a fee, for employment in the United States an individual without complying with the requirements of subsection (b).


Then it goes all pearshaped. It seems still crystal clear at the beginning, though:
(i)In general
If any employer that is a member of an association hires for employment in the United States an individual and relies upon the provisions of subparagraph (A) to comply with the requirements of subsection (b) and the individual is an alien not authorized to work in the United States, then for the purposes of paragraph (1)(A), subject to clause (ii), the employer shall be presumed to have known at the time of hiring or afterward that the individual was an alien not authorized to work in the United States.

(ii)Rebuttal of presumption
The presumption established by clause (i) may be rebutted by the employer only through the presentation of clear and convincing evidence that the employer did not know (and could not reasonably have known) that the individual at the time of hiring or afterward was an alien not authorized to work in the United States.


But what constitutes evidence? Attestation of examination of documents. So that
Such attestation may be manifested by either a hand-written or an electronic signature. A person or entity has complied with the requirement of this paragraph with respect to examination of a document if the document reasonably appears on its face to be genuine. If an individual provides a document or combination of documents that reasonably appears on its face to be genuine and that is sufficient to meet the requirements of the first sentence of this paragraph, nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as requiring the person or entity to solicit the production of any other document or as requiring the individual to produce such another document.


They give you fake ID and it appears to be genuine upon examination, you're clear. (There's a bit more to it than that--SS card, for example, but those have usually been easy to fake ... Or get false documentation issued. Now, proving that the documentation is false from the SS-side of things and from the employer side. Been there, done that, but not recently. Still, if the ID's obviously fake to a cop that doesn't mean it's obviously fake to the verification officer at the company. Back when I did this, the Clinton-era civil rights guidance also provided a teddy-bear cholla of problems: If you suspect that the person's ID is fake because they're Latino or some other accented person's, you'd better perform the same rigor of investigation for everybody else's, otherwise you're violating their civil rights.) This makes that presumption of knowledge easy to overturn and makes the cases hard to prosecute, because it's employee person by person.

That's the way the law was understood back then and it's how the law's apparently still understood. Both "round'em up and deport them immediately" and "round them up and toss them in jail" ignore Constitutional rights, but toss rotten tomatoes from different sides.

angrychair

(11,669 posts)
6. This is ridiculous
Thu Jul 10, 2025, 11:35 PM
Jul 2025

Because hiring undocumented immigrants is a crime (8 U.S. Code § 1324a) but being an undocumented immigrant is a civil violation (8 U.S. Code § 1325).

Given no one is asking any of these people if they are undocumented immigrant or not before beating them down and arresting them, it seems easier to just kick in a couple doors and arrest some CEOs. That will go a lot further than the insanely unconstitutional BS they are doing now.

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