Plus, who is leader or spokesperson? Nobody knows

Last edited Wed Aug 6, 2025, 01:52 AM - Edit history (2)

going to continue the killing, starvation and ethnic cleansing in Gaza until all the Gazans are gone and the hostages are freed. Hamas will stay in their tunnels and unfortunately, probably take the hostages with them when the IDF forces finally clear those tunnels.

It's ugly and going to get uglier. Israel's international reputation for the new Nakba will suffer for decades.

Grok

“The United States has sent significant quantities of bombs to Israel, particularly since the onset of the Gaza conflict on October 7, 2023. According to available information, the U.S. has transferred at least 14,000 MK-84 2,000-pound bombs and 6,500 500-pound bombs, among other munitions, between October 2023 and June 2024. This equates to:[](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/)[](https://aoav.org.uk/2024/us-has-sent-israel-14000-two-thousand-pound-bombs-since-october/)

- **14,000 × 2,000-pound bombs** = **28,000,000 pounds**
- **6,500 × 500-pound bombs** = **3,250,000 pounds**

Additionally, other munitions like 1,000 bunker-buster bombs, 3,000 Hellfire missiles, and 2,600 small-diameter bombs have been supplied, but their specific weights are less consistently documented. The total weight of these bombs alone is **31,250,000 pounds**. [](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/)

Precise figures for all munitions are hard to verify due to limited public disclosure, as the U.S. provides less detailed reporting on aid to Israel compared to other countries like Ukraine. If you need a breakdown of other munitions or more recent data, I can search for additional information. Would you like me to do that?[](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/)[](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/world/middleeast/us-israel-weapons.html)

Stop bringing his shit site here.

Including most of our government reps. If the info doesn’t suit you ..,,,

Fuck Musk. And stop fucking defending his shitty products.

Especially his little Nazi inspired chat bot.

It was also an integral part of the war plan to use their dead bodies as a strategic weapon against Israel."

"The October 7 battle strategy for HAMAS was, 'When we kill Jewish babies, they will come to kill Palestinian babies. Either way, we win.'"

Malcolm Nance

Hamas had to know the response from Israel would have horrendous consequences for Palestinian civilians in Gaza. A big part of their strategy was Israel losing international support as people were horrified at the mass slaughter and suffering of civilians, women, children.

This in no way exonerates the Israeli government for the deliberate carnage. I'm tempted to say Netanyahu is playing right into the hands of Hamas, but the long term goal of that terrorist organization -- the destruction of the Jewish state -- is a hopeless cause.

Using their own people as sacrificial pawns indicates that indulging their hatred in a fruitless goal they can't let go of supercedes the well being and future of the Palestinian people.

The October 7 atrocity convinced the Israeli hardliners that ethnic cleansing was necessary in their own long term goal of a Greater Israel encompassing all the Promised Land.

This is a generational struggle set in the context of a history encompassing millenia. Long term goals far exceed the lifetimes of today's actors, further intensified by religious zealotry and control of Jerusalem, the Holy City over which Crusades were fought.

I make no predictions, except the violence will likely continue for the forseeable future.

Jerusalem should be an international city of peace and brotherhood, given that it is so integral to three monotheistic religions worshipping the same God.

And the United States of America should be that shining city on a hill built on the idea that all human beings regardless of race or religion have equal rights -- an idea if, truly put into practice, would provide an example and the best hope for the future of human civilization.

When I was young, I had such optimism. Now in my late 60's my heart still believes in the idea, but my eyes see not progress but regression into the ancient racial and religious us versus them hatreds. All this as we continue to poison this precious Earth which sustains life itself.

We have the intelligence for tremendous industrial and technological advancements, but lack the wisdom to use it in the best way for our long term survival.

I am reminded of a lyric from Epitaph by King Crimson:

Knowledge is a deadly friend
If no one sets the rules
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools

he only conjured out of his Zionist brain. People like Nance and Hal Sparks go all nuts in the head to do mental gymnastics used to deflect criticism of Israel. It’s pathetic.

Oct 7 attack?

We do not attack other members of this board by saying,

I hugely admire what he's done in Ukraine. His positions on Israel not so much.

As a public figure I think it's legitimate to criticize him here.

calling him 'nuts and pathetic' is not a legitimate way to go about it.

how is the average poster supposed to even know that he's a member?

Boy, I sure hope that Bill Maher never joins DU, as that would certainly put a damper on many discussions here.

I really think that if someone is a public figure, and is being talked about as a public figure, that it shouldn't make a difference if they happen to have a DU membership. JMHO.

He would never join DU.

Which makes him a member of our community and should be treated as such. We all have disagreements, but they can be talked about without insults.

He has also been reading here for years.

That he wanted innocent Palestinians to die.

Amazing that everyone seems to have forgotten about Hamas in this whole mess.

Described as a death cult. Yet the news coverage I've seen shows Hamas videos and quotes Hamas as if they aren't death cult terrorists who'd torture rape and shoot you in the face without even thinking about it.

MSM always quoting Hamas-backed sources for their information. They've often had to correct it later but who pays attention to that?

And haven't there been several cases of "journalists" on the ground who've turned out to be with Hamas?

It’s all horrible - Baby Mila in Israel and the retaliation of 400 Gaza newborn deaths and 953 babies under one yrs old. (Almost 5000 under 5 yrs old.

Lies, lies, lies -. “According to Times of Israel and Haaretz one baby under one was killed Oct 7 - Mila Cohen who was ten months old. She and her dad
were killed by bullets coming thru a safe room door. Her mother got hit but lived and her two little brothers were not hit. The other baby was a baby they tried to save who was in the womb of a wounded mother. Groc listed Times of Israel & Haaretz as sources.

According to Haaretz & Times of Israel by Grok or just search both newspapers

“The Times of Israel, citing Hebrew media, reported that among the 764 civilian victims, there were two infants, 12 children under 10 (including Mila Cohen), 36 civilians aged 10–19, and 25 elderly people over 80. A Bedouin woman, shot in the abdomen while pregnant, lost her unborn child despite medical efforts.”

“Haaretz also clarified misinformation, debunking exaggerated claims such as babies being hung on clotheslines or groups of children being slaughtered and mutilated, stating that such reports were false. They emphasized that while atrocities occurred, including desecration of corpses and beheadings, specific claims about mass child killings were inaccurate.”

The Gaza Health Ministry has documented over 18,500 children killed in Gaza between October 7, 2023, and July 31, 2025, with names, ages, and other identifying details included in their records. This includes 4,741 babies under 5 years old, with the first 100 pages of a 386-page document listing these infants. Additionally, 953 babies under one year and 400 newborns are among the documented deaths. These figures are based on hospital and morgue records, vetted family reports, and reliable media, though the actual toll may be higher due to unidentified or missing individuals.[](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2025/israel-gaza-war-children-death-toll/)

Even if they had the means to protect Gazans from Netanyahu's years-long campaign of deliberate civilian murder, it's hardly clear that they would do so.

... Netanyahu is seeing to it that there will be a bumper crop of replacement fighters. He's murdering hungry 10-year-olds struggling to carry a little food home to his mother. He is a psychotic monster.

When Zionists carried out massacres in Palestine. We also see every day on our phones the atrocities in the West Bank.

As of June 2025, there are 10,400 Palestinians in Israeli prisons- 440 are children according to Addameer. We see how emaciatecd Palestine doctors are if and when released from Israeli prisons. We have also viewed the prison rape videos on our phones.

UN ...Israel forces kill 11 Palestinian children in first three months of 2019

Israeli occupation forces killed 11 Palestinian children in the first quarter of 2019, reported human rights NGO Defence for Children International – Palestine (DCIP).
The fatalities include two children shot dead during Great Return March protests on 30 March, as well as a volunteer medic killed in Bethlehem last week.”
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190404-israel-forces-kill-11-palestinian-children-in-first-three-months-of-2019/

Are they not showing up to defend them or are they showing up to use them as human shields?

Hamas is no longer a viable fighting force in Gaza and haven’t been for a long time. They can’t defend anything.

As you note, Hamas isn't currently capable of doing anything, but they definitely used human shields in the past putting their operational bases under hospitals and schools.

Obviously doesn't excuse Israel from responsibility in terms of shooting people trying to get the meager aid they allow or the plan to remove Palestinians from Gaza so Israel can have it.

Other than the sad and empty laundry room under Al-Shifa that was a joke?

Israel has provided no credible evidence for that claim used as a pretext to destroy entire hospitals and schools.

Even had that spurious claim been grounded in reality, which it was not, Israel still would have been in violation of international law for BOMBING hospitals, wantonly and deliberately - manually - destroying equipment and depriving Palestinians of medical care.

Imagine - just imagine - being a Palestinian horrifically wounded, needing amputations etc without proper equipment and medicine. It's the height of cruelty to destroy hospitals in a place where you are also killing and maiming civilian every day.

Human shields?? No. And btw under what law are human shields permitted to be slaughtered? Perversion and manipulation of international law to justify killing of civilians and destroy their infrastructure and homes, in aid of ethnic cleansing - that's what it has always amounted to.

I also wonder what/who was the source of that intelligence. Did the US have its own intelligence on the ground in Gaza, as Israel does?

As for the ynet article, it doesn't pass the lowest bar of journalistic standards. I had seen it before and was quite amused by it.

The destruction of hospitals based on claims never proven has been widely condemned. The point remains: there is neither law nor concensus for the level of destruction nor for the suffering of patients and staff.

Even John Kirby, in the article you linked to, said this:

You still haven't demonstrated anything to support your contention that it's all just the lying Israelis.

Nothing remotely resembling that was found under Al-Shifa.

Further, Israel has not provided one shred of evidence that the disused laundry room and toilet were used by Hamas.

Nor has it provided any evidence of command and control centres at any other hospital it destroyed.

Before attacking hospitals, indisputable, verified evidence is needed. That is lacking. Perhaps if Israel allowed UN-mandated independentent investigations. But, like independent investigations of October 7th, it has not allowed that.

So what you are asking for has been made impossible by Israel. Though there are plenty of sources, NGOs, etc out there questioning Israel's veracity on this. You can find them yourself.

Further:
"...in the exceptional circumstances when medical personnel, ambulances, and hospitals lose their special protection because they fulfil the strict criteria to be considered military objectives, any attack on them must still comply with the fundamental principles of distinction, proportionality and precautions in attack. Failure to respect any of these principles constitutes a breach of international humanitarian law.

If you have seen any pictures of what Israel did to Al-Shifa or the other hospitals, you cannot argue that Israel applied any of those principles. The IDF went hog-wild with the destruction. It was part of the systematic destruction of Gaza to ethnically cleanse the strip. It led to awful human suffering, still going on today, and it is unforgivable because it was deliberately planned and then lied about.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/10/un-commission-finds-war-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity-israeli-attacks

Then you admit you can't prove your assertion, and then you pivot to complaining about Israel's war crimes as if that's a defense or somehow means that Hamas doesn't also commit war crimes.

Both sides can in fact suck in a war.

If Hamas committed a war crime as accused, they need to be charged and held accountable. For that to occur, Israel must present indisputable, independently verified evidence of their use of hospitals and schools. It has not done so.

If Israel committed fraud in its PR campaign, both before and after raiding and destroying Al Shifa and other hospitals, then it needs to be charged and held accountable also. For the war crime of the destruction of the hospital system as a tool of war (and ethnic cleansing).

I repeat: Israel has not presented convincing, indisputable evidence - the bar required before attacking a hospital - has not acceded to investigation by independent parties, and has entirely destroyed the Strip's hospital and medical system based on flimsy evidence. This resulted in heinous human suffering that persists to this day. I hope that it is held to account.

No one can definitively debunk Israel's claims using direct evidence - as Israel won't accede to independent investigations and won't let in foreign journalists to work independently. However, there is a plethora of information and analysis that points to these claims being false. The pattern of deceit and lies is quite consistent.

Simply put, Israel has no credibility left. It lies and then lies some more. Sometimes it forgets it already lied or forgets the details of its previous lie, and that's when it gets caught.

It definitely lied about the hospitals. Here's some evidence of that - there's tons more, but as I said you could do your own research - if you are so inclined.

Please bookmark your post and use it as reference before you feel compelled to accuse anyone of war crimes.

That alone should significantly free up your daily schedule.

BTW, just FYI: media reports questioning how conclusive the available evidence might be do not in themselves constitute evidence or prove the available evidence to be false.

And what international laws are you talking about? Certainly not this one:

Seriously - why would Hamas push that out to the world?

when it condemned the October 7 attack and called on Hamas to release the hostages, disarm, and surrender.

Since then Hamas has released photos and videos of the hostages (who they are starving and torturing daily) in the hope of stoking outrage against Israel. Hamas also went over the heads of Egyptian and Jordanian officials to try to stoke anger against those countries for participating in the "starvation plan" by not providing enough aid. Even the Red Cross and WHO are finally making some noise about the condition of the hostages and Hamas's myriad war crimes against the hostages and the people of Gaza.

So the latest, and possibly most desperate piece of Hamas propaganda is that Israel already had a "starvation plan" in place in October 2023, either before or shortly after Hamas invaded Israel to carry out its protracted rape-torture-murder spree on October 7.

If Hamas took over a hospital in Tel Aviv, full of Israeli citizens, would Israel still use the “human shield” argument to bomb the living fuck out of Israeli citizens simply because, oh well, they just had to get Hamas?

No, they wouldn’t. Israel, and every single person who supports this nonsense, is perfectly fine bombing Palestinian civilians. It’s that simple. And that is support for genocide, support for the current holocaust carried out by Israel.

But suppose a handful of them gets past border security, travels undetected half way through the country by public transportation, passes metal detectors and armed security guards inside the hospital and casually walks into a sprawling hospital grounds full of Israelis who greet them as liberators. Let's then suppose that the hospital staff takes orders from them and facilitates their presence in the hospital. Let's then suppose that a platoon of heavily armed Hamas militants miraculously springs out of the ground and secures the perimeter of the hospital so Israeli special forces are prevented from entering it.

Even if we suppose all this absurdity, the human shield argument would not apply. Hamas would still be committing a terrorist act rather than a military operation. A situation to which Article 19 of the Fourth Geneva Convention would not apply. In the event of terrorist takeover, the hospital continues to exclusively perform acts within their humanitarian duties, and therefore retains its protective status. Therefore, international law says that the hospital may not be attacked.

If, on the other hand, we drop all the contrived inanities, you will have to show me at least one instance in which Israel bombed the living fuck out of a Gazan hospital without first ordering its evacuation before I can take your heap of over the top presumptions halfass seriously .

Bunch of words. Said nothing.

You can try to muddy the waters as much as you want if it makes you feel better about supporting genocide and ethnic cleansing. I think most people here see through your bullshit.

You seem a bit angry. Is that a side effect of supporting a holocaust?

Are you expecting a reasoned and measured reply to a preposterous proposition? Please! Get a grip.

Seriously BB -

if Hamas has control of a hospital in Tel Aviv - then that means they have killed every single Israeli and the would be bombing themselves - the State of Hamas in the Middle East.

There was no legitimate argument presented. The purpose of this nonsensical tirade was not to argue, but to gratuitously throw random accusations around, irrespective of the replies.

playing victim. Which makes sense in the larger context of the conversation.

I usually reserve that kind of language for white supremacists. Beastly Boy is most definitely NOT a w.s.

If Hamas took over a hospital in Tel Aviv, full of Israeli citizens, would Israel still use the “human shield” argument to bomb the living fuck out of Israeli citizens simply because, oh well, they just had to get Hamas?

No, they wouldn’t. Israel, and every single person who supports this nonsense, is perfectly fine bombing Palestinian civilians. It’s that simple. And that is support for genocide, support for the current holocaust carried out by Israel.

That means they've killed every Israeli and now have complete control of Israel.

Israel wouldn't be able to bomb them - because Israel would be gone.

Was “everyone in Israel” killed when the Savoy Hotel in Tel Aviv was taken over and hostages were taken, just to use one example?

Hospital. Hotel. School. Take any example. Israel would NEVER call the people being held “human shields” and they would never bomb the site. They simply want to exterminate Palestinians. That’s their genocidal goal.

Because Hamas very existence is the elimination of every single Jewish Person on earth. The Savoy was a PLO act of terrorism in 1975.

Hamas is a blood thirsty terrorist organization - they wouldn't make the same mistakes the PLO made.

Question - did Hamas act like blood thirsty demonic murders on October 7th -

Or are we completely ignoring that now?

We might not see them the same way. My raping murderous Demonic Entities might very well be your Freedom Fighters.

And if we are that far apart in perception - then we have nothing further to discuss. Agree to Disagree?

BTW - I consider white supremacists in America to be raping, murderous Demonic Entities with Krasnov as head demon in charge. It's because of ACTIONS not WHO they are that makes me call them Demonic Entities.

eliminating now. Hence the dissembling here. And all the excuse making for this holocaust.

I won’t “agree to disagree.”

But I also won’t continue to talk with a supporter of ethnic cleansing.

Did you just accuse me of being a Hutu, Nazi, etc. etc.

All they needed to do is separate themselves and their military assets from civilians. They can still do it, but they refuse.

And if they wanted the war to end, they would have released the hostages long ago.

It's not a matter of making up anyone's mind.

waved the white flag?

Someone has to be in charge there. Who is it? And why haven't they sat down with a mediator and Israel's Trump to hash out a peace plan?

I also suspect that Hamas isn't the organized, hierarchical structure that IDF propaganda makes it out to be.

And since, as a vile terrorist regime, Hamas doesn't concern itself with the well-being of Palestinians, they have no incentive to surrender. Netanyahu knows this, and yet he choose to continue his years-long campaign of deliberate civilian murder, all while his apologists continue to blame Hamas for Bibi's actions.

So much for the notion of just being in it to eliminate Hamas, now it's outright genocide.

And that is the subject of the OP, isn't it?

Everyone hates them and fears them.

Now that American doctors say they have lots of kids with gun shot wounds to their heads, chest and genitalia- if you were a dad and this happened to your kid, or your kid is an amputee, burnt or blind - you might just join Hamas.

Both of their families were attacked and had their small olive groves taken by Israeli Settlers that were defended by the IDF. One saw his uncle shot dead by the IDF. These are Christians not Muslim. They both hate Israel. I’m sure there are Christian’s in Gaza too.

I agree.

It makes the Israeli military as evil as Hamas.

Hamas can protect Gazan civilians by getting the fuck away from them.

That simple.

That simple.

If one is in denial of Hamas killing, raping and mutilating over 1,000 Israelis in their homes,

If one is in denial of Hamas kidnapping over 200 hostages, taking them across international borders into Gaza,

If one is in denial of a long list of Hamas leaders bragging about causing the "martyrdom" of Gazan civilians as their core military objective,

If one is in denial of the existence of the rules of war and international law,

then sure, one is in denial.

But you deny that Netanyahu plans to take their land by force.

And that's more foolishness on your part.

Israel has clearly shown they can be as cruel as Hamas.

Obviously, in your eyes, Israel can do no wrong. Perhaps you think Jews are "the chosen ones" and others are not.

to which I think we know the answer.

... but it's a question that deserved to be asked out loud. Thank you.

"Not at all. Dead innocent Gazans clearly due to Israel's aggression".

That was in response to my post titled "Not at all. The problem is that their [Hamas] PRESENCE among civilians endangers them."

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that "not at all" is a denial, and it is a denial of the fact that Hamas presence among civilians is responsible for endangering their lives.

This is a direct denial of at least one "such thing" I posted, namely "Hamas leaders bragging about causing the "martyrdom" of Gazan civilians as their core military objective"


Now it's your turn: where did you see me comment on Netanyahu's plans? Or that Israel can do no wrong? Or that the Jews are the "chosen ones"?

I don't think "obviously" means what you think it means.

"Obviously" you are confused and pointlessly angry. I see that in a lot of your posts.

You support the war, but not Netanyahoo. That's bull.

That there are some Hamas members among the population is no excuse to wage a starvation campaign against them all. Many Gazans are innocent victims of Hamas.

In Hebrew school I was taught that we are God's (scuze me, G_d's chosen people) and Israel is our homeland.

I lived among the orthodox whose philosophy was Israel first, America second. They all voted for GW Bush solely because they believed Republicans were stronger on Israel. They also staunchly believe that the Earth is a mere 6000 years old, that women's bodies are inherently dirty, and that Noah's arc was real. The Hasidim I knew looked down on the mere orthodox, who looked further down on the more secular Jews.

Netanyahoo frequently makes references to Jewish history and destiny to justify the stealing of land.

I believe in Israel's right to exist, but only within its current borders. Not one parcel beyond.

And, if your description of your childhood is in any way accurate, I am truly sorry about the way you remember it.

Good bye.