I don't think anyone here refused to vote for Hillary Clinton.

it was a comment regarding those in the general public who so adamently opposed her. I would never disparage anyone here and I'm sorry if it was interpreted that way.

So maybe you could edit your OP to note your comment isn't directed at DUers. Because I left DU for a while in 2016-17 due to the infighting over this. During that time, this kind of post was directed at DUers. It costs you nothing to clarify your intensions in the OP.

But I will edit it anyway. Thank you.

I didn't take it as personal criticism one bit because I wholeheartedly supported Hillary during the 2016 election and obviously knew they weren't referring to me.

Why would someone think the OP were talking about them, unless they refused to support Hillary back then?

ESPECIALLY when the alternative is pure evil Republicans.

Is Fetterman the one Democrat you would defend?

And as vehemently as I disagree with him most of the time lately, would still vote for him to defeat a Republican.

So you see, criticism and support are not mutually exclusive.

of someone you support. Attacking is turning that issue or policy into a purity test and drawing a line in the sand over it.

But either way, let's use your words -- the point still remains:

Time is limited and every minute you spend attacking criticizing Democrats is a minute Republicans thank you for your service.

Oh, and it's a minute you aren't attacking criticizing Republicans, which deserve it infinitely more so.

To share a variation of your cliché, but pragmatically useful, platitude, don’t let our imperfections get in the way of our good. While criticism isn’t always the result of critical thinking, it is an ordinary byproduct of it. I can’t imagine getting anything done without it, including strategizing how best to attack the Republican platform and its effects.

I'm sure they also give kudos to that.

I don't.

are our own elected officials.

One called Hillary a 'Cunning Stunt" ( just change the position of a few letters) and was banned.

They left DU to join Jack Pine Radicals. Manny Goldstein (PPRed) admitted to being a Repuke and a member here for 10 years.

Gee, I wonder where those Republican enablers slithered off to...

...or back to...

Beloved progressive icon, "I'd vote for a woman, just not THAT woman, I'd totally vote for Elizabeth Warren" they all swore.

Immediately after Warren announced her run for president the knives were out at JPR: Hillary 2.0, corporate shill, establishment, used to be a Republican, said she was capitalist in her bones, Pocahontas, "schoolmarm" etc.

It was all like that. For nothing, knowing nothing. Only against.

Tulsi Gabbard, though, was always everyone's fav because she was just like them.

The "you have to give someone a reason to vote FOR you, not just a reason to vote against your opponent!" crowd sure loved doing the complete opposite -- and the opponents of these self-proclaimed progressives were most often good Democrats with ACTUAL progressive accomplishments.

Case in point: Elizabeth Warren.

I'm sure there were thousands of similar sites created by Russian trolls. The disinformation campaign in 2016 has been well documented.

The disturbing part is that hundreds of longtime DUers left here to become part of the Russian campaign against Hillary Clinton.

And some have quietly returned. Did they learn anything?

Been in political stuff, and causes since I was around 14 ('67) a bit earlier here and there, as well.

I was on a U2 site that had a political sub forum, and trying to get the few progressives who refused to vote for Hillary. Arg!
Equating Hillary and drumphf?!!
All that crap about both Parties being "the same".

I certainly have my longstanding gripes, and worries about Corporate overreach etc, but Democrats in general usually either are already for, or more easily pushed by more activists to at least better be somewhat to often waaaay better than Republicans on Social issues! That's important to me!

as did Disscussionist (I think that is what it was called).

Hmmm, I wonder.

Quite a few bernie fanatics on here still who wanted to "blow it all up" because the "the establishment" blah blah blah.

Fortunately, most of them left to form their own board, where they devolved from a combination of hate for Hillary and support for, let’s say, “another contender” for the Democratic nomination, and became a site devoted largely to more “esoteric” theories. I visited the site a couple of times. As GJC might have said, veni, vidi, satis. I came, I saw, I had enough.

Something like, "To be fair, I don't think Hillary personally pulled the trigger."

That poster probably wasn't around much longer.

the current reproach is usually directed at those who had issues with Kamala, btw, I voted and donated to both

To me, there was no good reason not to vote for her, especially considering who her opponent was. And it eventually led to where we are now.

However, the same could be said of 2000, where Gore actually won but the Supreme Court awarded it to Bush. While 911 would possibly still have happened, the response would have been different.

Had Kerry won in 2004, which could have happened if everyone who went out to vote for him could have easily and expeditiously voted in Ohio, he would have nominated 2 Supreme Court justices, not named Roberts and Alito. This would have changed the Citizens United decision and by 2008 the Supreme Court would have been 5/4 in our favor even counting Kennedy as conservative when he was really a swing vote.

You could even look at 2008. Clinton winning the Presidency would likely have changed history. How I don't know. I don't know if Clinton/ (rumored to be Bayh) would have passed healthcare. Would we still have ended up with 60 Senators even briefly? Would having Senator Obama available to run in a later open primary have made us stronger now?

You could even go back and consider whether 1992 could have led to a better result with a President Jerry Brown, Tom Harkin, Paul Tsongus (if he did not have cancer) or Mario Cuomo if he had opted to run. With Perot attacking as a libertarian and Bush looking very weak, it most likely was a Democratic year.

What I still can not intellectually or emotionally understand is how Trump won after everything we knew.

Folks here should take note. Spar in the primaries REASONABLY. Assume that any of the top 2 or 3 primary contenders WILL be the nominee - and it may not be the one you prefer.

The crap stirred up in primaries will come back to bite in the general. I know too many people IRL who had knives out for Hillary even after the primary, then grudgingly agreed to vote for her once it became clear TO THEM that she was indeed the nominee and that would not change. But it was too late to take away damage they had done in their circles of contacts who didn't understand the stakes well enough. Shorter version - they suppressed D votes in the general by their earlier success at convincing people they should "never" vote for Hillary no matter what.

Keep criticism to policies and why you prefer your preferred candidate. No amplifying CT or irrelevant bullshit against the others.

Whoever the R's put up in 2028 - it won't be TSF, and I'm not seeing it be Vance - there is no planet on which the D candidate will be worse. (unless we truly get rolled by AI gimmicks and some fascist plant somehow wins - not beyond imagination for that to happen, but extremely unlikely)

which I believe she did.

I would rather see articles that showed how Russia interfered in Hillary's election.

There's a cure for the next election that I am pushing for, don't run a politician for president, run a Malcoln Nance-like candidate, or even run someone like Miles Taylor who is a Republican on the Democratic ticket.

Shouldn't be any infighting then, run the toughest SOB out there.

Actual reasons why elections were ‘lost’! I’m very concerned that we have yet to get a handle on what tom fuckrry Elon pulled for T! Im pretty sure that Russia tanked Hillary! How many times do we have to go back to this merciless rehashing. I’m pretty sure the monster will not permit fair elections next time around. Even if the computers aren’t hacked who will go to the polls with ICE hanging around. This is beyond surreal! We need to be thinking about the next Presidential election and what can possibly be done at this late date to secure it!!

The first year Ohio got computerized machines I was at a poll worker training session and the Diebold tech weenie did his dog and pony show. After the class all but a few were still lingering I asked the tech if the machines were connected to the internet! He asked me in a snide way if I had seen him hook a wire to it! Now in this day and age my home computer was wireless. What a stupid reply! The director of the BOE was standing there and I wasn’t about to get into it with either one of them. Well at election time I did not get asked to work the polls after working over ten years. The next year I got a card in the mail reminding me of the upcoming poll worker training. I called the office wondering why I had used my time for training last election and wasn’t asked to work. The staff member said she was sure I was asked because they were short on poll workers last time. I said no I wasn’t and she said she would let the director know and get back to me. I got a call from the director and asked him why I was not asked to work….well Hope we can’t have you seeding doubt on the voters. I told him to ask anyone who had worked with me and they would tell him I had integrity and that my fellow poll workers wanted me there because at the end of the day our tally would be correct. After a moment of silence he said…you can work. That is why I have zero confidence that Elon did not pull a major heist last time. We need to clean this crap up if we want to win but once again we are toooo late for 2026!!!!!

That count and report votes, no one can prove the truth and it’s illegal to handcount ballots in most states

So we live with what the republican made machines tell us

the past.. Pay Attention to our History. Not sure why anyone would want to forget it.

I certainly won't

Carry On!

Manny Goldstein, WillyT and friends. WillyT, if you ever worked in MIRT has tried to come back many times. They walk among us.

Is JPR even a thing anymore?

I was talking about people in the general population who just couldn't "in good conscience" vote for her; the people who were against her because of one issue or one little comment she made, etc.

I realize that the MSM and Republicans have demonized the Clintons for years and that's certainly a part of it, but people who should've known better stayed home or voted third party for whatever reasons they had. Those are the people I was referring to.

oh yes

A ton has gond on since. Good and bad.

People need to get excited, either out of "The new revolutionary Democratic Party" that we are building (or else we lose everything) or just plain rage at the destruction.

Guilt can nudge, but has no power.

Who will lead? People who are leading today. You know their names because they care so damn much that they are attacking fascism rather than waiting until it's "safe" to come out.

I/we want fighters.
I/we way winners.

Silence is damn near complicity.

It's not just because people have short memories. It's that change is massive and rapid.

You can't look back.
The battle is in front of us.

Shame the replies were pretty sane & reasonable too

Last edited Sun Jan 11, 2026, 12:13 PM - Edit history (1)

Emails, Gaza. All massively amplified by media and bots. AI makes orders of magnitude worse.

A short time ago, "undressing" apps were secretive. Musk put them in the hands of every registered user. They are NOTHING BUT ABUSIVE.

A campaign has to be an overwhelming force to counter the garbage.

With great clarity, focus and purpose.

Otherwise the others get to define us.
Again.

Then, people can't see the forest for the trees.

are doomed to repeat is.

They played purity politics with Clinton in 16, then did it again with Harris in 24. And there are some still doing it now with democrats.

I sometimes find myself thinking about this too. If Clinton would have won we would be in a so much better place right now. Maybe we'd have universal healthcare, climate change would be addressed better, way less COVID deaths, maybe no war in Ukraine and most importantly Trump likely would have faded into obscurity and the supreme court would be normal. Also I think the economy would be working a lot better for the average person instead of the billionaires.

Sadly though this is in the past and we cannot change our past but we can learn from the past and change our actions to shape the future.

This year we must fight super hard never give up and speak out constantly and always be relentless in spreading our message and advocating FOR democrats not just being against Republicans and really doing politics to change the hearts and minds of this country. We must also teach Democrats to always vote even when a candidate isn't perfect because we agree on most issues and we will not stay home because of a single issue.

I appreciate it. By the way, I like your user name!

part of that is remembering the Past and learning from it

Hopefully including Kamala Harris.

And the religious right is responsible for this abomination in our Country,

That’s why “Russia, Russia, Russia”.

I hope we get our Democracy back. We clearly don’t deserve it.

If we do, the FIRST thing we do should be shit-canning Citizens’ United, then Nationalize the Tech-Bros' Empire… “Move Fast and Break Things”.

Since “Over-Reach” is a THING now.

Elect Kamala Prez.
Appoint Hillary to the Supreme Court, even if just long enough to close the books on MAGA.

Mild-mannered Midwestern Methodist ("do all the good you can" ) whose career was helping people, first person you'd call if you needed help and the person who'd call you because she heard about a problem (like the Flint, Michigan water crisis), became so many different monsters depending on what propaganda you were targeted with and believed.

Susan Bordo (who thanks CNN's Jeffrey Toobin for being the only one publicly apologizing in 2018 for his role in the false equivalence):

"Yes, we have to 'move on' -- if that means we need to work on creating a better future. But if it means we should stop dissecting, analyzing, and critiquing how the disaster of 2016 happened, I don't agree. The fact is we should be 'relitigating' the past all the time. It's called examining history. It's called exposing mythology and unearthing truth. It's called speaking truth to the power that was -- and that still, unfortunately, is"

If examining history makes one upset and lash out... Better to deal with it so it doesn't happen again. Next election will deal with same problems, Democrats attacked from all directions and people gullibly believing it.

Coastal elite organized crime establishment moneybags oligarch pal Trump? Drain the swamp, eh?

But I do remember the many members of PUMA that were here.

How many people, especially in Florida, voted for Ralph Nader.

is a Putin ally who is working to undo the Western Alliance.

Many left this site in 2016 because they were not allowed to call HRC a "c" word - seriously.

I am sure they are still secure in their self-righteousness.

they were voting their ego. Voting your conscience requires voting for someone who you may not be 100% comfortable with but is better than the alternative.

There are people around me who are vocal about hating Dementia Don now, but I fought with them about their support for Jill Stein because they were against Hillary after Bernie didn't get the nod. I was a Hillary Clinton delegate.
When I hear these people criticize donny and this regime, particularly losing our democracy and international standing, I bristle.

Personally, there is a wave of oppression coming right at me. It’s vindictive, dangerous and nearly impossible to eradicate. What benefit is it to me to whine about 2016? Do what’s true for you, DUers. To each their own.

are doomed to repeat it. Some failed to learn from the 2000 election and repeated it in 16. Then they failed to learn from 16 and repeated it in 24.

those that fail to adapt go extinct.

The trick is to adapt without repeating mistakes from the past.

but we're Democrats so that is allowed. Even encouraged.

There is a very difficult balance between the imperative to learn from the past while adapting to novel conditions. As I ruminate on a lot of what I post in this community, I've wondered if "leadership" as I think of it is an awareness of this balance.

Your insight is always appreciated.

political or commercial, there will be those who will say 'this is the way we always did it'. And there are those who just want to throw everything old out and do things completely differently. It's always a balancing act.

as in cults or in MAGA. The past never happened, it is only the dictates of the present which project forward and backward in time infinitely. Retcons.

There has been more lashing out at Dem/undecided voters then actually examining what happened.

It serves no other purpose

Murder and shootings by federal agents on the streets of this country. This is what they brought, you un-serious people! Own it, you bastards!

But the way Bernie was treated at the end. Many of his followers went ahead and voted for her like me but I know some who didn't like my grandson.

I think when we run a very progressive candidate that young people are excited about we need to try harder to win them over after the primary.

There still is a lot of posts here I see against Bernie folks and it's that type of stuff that caused people to sit out 2016.

I lived in a very progressive area of CA at the time and only way I could get my grandson to vote was for Bernie.

Now years later he is one of those young disaffected males in our society. Doesn’t vote thank god because it wouldn’t go for us.

I just think we need to do more for the young men.

The narrative that they are a forgotten class seems to, itself, forget that they have all the power.

His girlfriend got pregnant and had abortion then told him doctor said she couldn’t have any more kids, he believed her and didn’t use birth control. She thought if she got pregnant he would get motivated work more and marry her. Everything went wrong he had a hard time working extra hours and she broke up with him few months before baby was born, moved to Minneapolis from CA and told him he couldn’t see baby. Few years go by (during which he did go sign up for child support) and she wants him to take daughter for 6 months because she has no sitter and money. We all meet and fall in love with my great granddaughter, they live with his sister and her kids same age. All doing good until mom decides to call police and say he kidnapped her since nothing was in writing. He tells cops she told me to take her for 6 months. That was after 5 months .

So cops tell him no charges if he leaves immediately and brings her back which he does. By then he has relationship with her, so few months later last May moves there and has fought for visitation ever since working a warehouse job renting a room.

So no young men do not hold all the power and I fully believe all that happened to my grandson opened him up to listen to the other side.

and personal. I don't want to discount or diminish the experience you have, nor defame anyone you care about.

I recognize that there are people left behind by our political ecosystem - the media, the courts, police, etc.

That being said (usually a tell that you can ignore all that follows, but in this case I hope you read on), in terms of political influence and dominance of the memosphere, young men are hegemonic in their power. By memosphere, I mean the broader Dawkins sense of cultural units that exist in public consciousness.

You are quite correct that the emergence of the "young male voter" demographic in electoral politics requires that we speak to these individuals. But how? We don't do it by surrendering our principles and embracing figures that exemplify what one might problematically call "toxic masculinity".

I'm a dude, and I have been a young dude. In my youth I broke up with my girlfriend because she terminated a pregnancy against my desire. It took me a long time to realize that, pro-choice I may be, that this was something that was entirely her call.

There is some biology in this too. Male and female brains are wired differently.

But to the point, we speak to young men by making clear what we believe, fighting for what we believe, and winning once every so often.

I know I got personal, he is my favorite grandson and it breaks my heart watching it all.

Right now I never speak politics with him just try to be a good example with compassion. When I asked him about latest thing and ICE his response was they are here because of the Somali.

Sen. Sanders' appeal was that he was anti-establishment, which is sexy but meaningless.

Been fighting for all his career, universal healthcare and college kids can afford and fixing the environment.

The only reason he is antiestablishment is because main stream candidates go along with for profit healthcare.

I remember when healthcare was affordable and when it was not for profit when I grew up.

It feels like more and more are being privatized for the rich to profit over us being sick or people going to jail or just keeping warm. Utility bills are so high now people can’t afford to stay warm.

I had two of my roommates in college marry Canadians and now having been in Canada 50 years they are citizens, using the healthcare with no problem one in BC and one in Toronto area. Part of why I feel the way I do.

and urging voting for the Democratic nominee?

hating on POC and women trumps common sense and decency

Our job as voters is to keep pushing the government in a liberal/progressive direction, every election, and very often that means voting for candidates who we don't agree with on every single thing but who are at least pulling in the same general direction as us. To not do this means that there is one less vote being applied in that liberal/progressive direction, which grants one more vote's momentum to the side that pulls in the opposite direction. Democracy often involves relentless incrementalism, but we must be relentless at it.

=================

I am critical of my fellow Democrats, but I support them with money I don't have, time I can't spare.

We need to treat our politicians like adults - they err, they are misguided, they are corruptible. It is incumbent upon their voters to hold them to account, because we are the votes that make or break them.

There is such a thing as bad tactics. A bad tactical decision does not, by itself, lose a war. But if we fail to correct, and these tactics keep getting used, we will certainly lose the war.

This is the bunker mentality when a leader is too fragile to hear the truth. They can only hear how they are doing the right thing, their plan is perfect, wise, bulletproof.

I do not think our coalition is so fragile that it cannot handle healthy dissent from ardent supporters.

I was a Sen. Clinton diehard in 2008, but I will submit that during the campaign she used some problematic dog whistles when she got desperate to win. What did she do at the convention? She wholeheartedly, (apparently) warmly, and dramatically let her delegates to vote for Obama by acclamation.

I was a Sec. Clinton diehard in 2016. She did not receive the same courtesy, and yeah, I think it cost her the election.

VP Harris ran a perfect campaign until the phantom of Liz Cheney appeared where Tim Walz should've been.

These are my opinions. They don't make me a bad Democrat. They are the thoughts of an adult man who has invested a lot of heart and soul into politics.

Treat your party like you treat your parents as an adult. They can make mistakes, but your relationship is eternal. Bill Maher and Al Franken have both made the analogy that Democrats love their country like an adult loves their parents, while Republicans love their country like a child loves their parents.

If he were presented with hard evidence he was wrong about something he would simply declare it fake news, just as always.

and there is no reasoning with a deep seated belief held by so many that the least qualified man is more competent than the most accomplished woman.

Apparently, having a penis is the only actual qualification for being president of the US.

We are faced with the greatest threat to our democracy in our nation's history. The election was years ago, and all this post does is dredge up past divisions. We need to unite and fight the common enemy. Our battle is now.

My intention was not to dredge up past divisions. I was merely stating how I felt at that moment.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions and reactions. I appreciate your input.

We are at an incredibly challenging point in our nation's history. We do not need this now. We need to join together and fight the true enemy - Trump, the MAGAs, and rabid conservatives who seek to destroy our country.

We need to pull together, not apart. Your post undermines that goal.

I am sufficiently chastised. You made your point. I'll try not to let it happen again.

Maybe I should just stick to posts about my cats. Will that meet with your approval?

Hillary ran the last time in 2016 - ten years ago! Move on. We have battles to be fought NOW! Together!

I voted for Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and Kamala Harris and currently feel I'm living in a nightmare with the 2nd term of Trump.

I voted for Bernie Sanders in the 2016 & 2020 primary but always voted for the Democratic nominee. I even voted for Krysten Sinema multiple times as I live in the Congressional district she used to represent.

I see your edit about how this wasn't directed at anyone here. Just answering that despite my best efforts am not happy with Trump's actions.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

as long as we also call out the people that voted for Hillary in the primary.

I'm sorry, but going for a candidate with low favorability ratings with independents and even Democrats was a mistake. Especially in an election where being "anti-establishment" was in vogue.

and Elizabeth Warren, and a Quinnipiac poll reported that registered voters in Ohio (yes --- Ohio) chose Clinton over the six likely Republican candidates: Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, and John Kasich. 'If the election were held tomorrow,' John McCain said, 'Hillary Clinton most likely would be president.' Susan Bordo

A record 20 times as the Most Admired Woman. Complete lie she was unpopular. That took work to erase her and replace her with a fictional villain. Fake scandals, mindless repetition of "establishment" "Wall Street" "corporatist" "neoliberal"-- meaningless insults. Shorenstein Center: as of June 2016, 84% of Clinton's media coverage was negative compared to Trump's 43% and Sanders's 17%. Of all candidates, who was judged the most truthful? Clinton.

That Hillary was popular is part of the truth some people don't want to talk about because it exposes their favorites as liars and it will happen again. The lie that Democrats ignore the economy, working class, are beholden to wealthy donors and oligarchs. Wasn't true then, wasn't true in 2020 or 2024, isn't going to be true in 2028.

...it's the same detail. Two historically unpopular candidates facing off.

Meanwhile Sanders was the only Dem polling ahead of Trump in the primaries. I would've drove through a hurricane to vote for Clinton.

Sanders wasn't the target of attacks by domestic or foreign sources and most media coverage was positive (rally size for example). During the entire campaign media covered policy only 10% of the time. It wasn't about policy at all, only character attacks. None of those "corruption" accusations were true. Weaponizing words like "establishment" and conspiracy theories of rigging and evil plots. Obama had the most progressive platform in history, then Clinton, Biden, Harris.

We all know someone who this applies for personally and they wouldn't spend 30 seconds on DU..

Would she have gotten reelected? Who runs and who wins in 2024?