Nazis symbols are acceptable when politically expedient? Or are they now simply acceptable?

I think Maine should have gone with Janet Mills despite her age but
Here we are
Do we want to win this or not
In California- if Becerra turns out to be a Satan worshiper I will still pick him to prevent Trump from owning California
Maine should think the same

But that was not ever my point.

As I believe I clearly stated I am asking why Nazi symbols are being defended?

I think what is being defended is the ignorance of the symbol by a young man that has learned better.

When young people pick out tattoos, they pick out cute or tough. I think this guy was thinking it looked tough, not that he was declaring his alliance to an ideology.

defending the symbol as not being a Nazi symbol.

It is two very different things to admit one was unaware of Nazi connotation and to try to "cleanse" it by saying similar symbols have been used in other contexts.

I do not believe DUers are far right

of nazi symbolism you are specifically calling out here? They are anti-semites, nazi sympathizers, or nazis?

IMO the issue of the tattoo and the symbol are so intertwined that people are unable to separate them and believe they must defend both. They are two separate issues- a poorly chosen tattoo and a Nazi symbol.

The tattoos was chosen with little thought, represented something he says he was unaware of and has since been covered. Everything there is plausible and defensible.

The Totenkopf design of the SS was an integral part of their uniforms; look at any contemporary photos or watch any WW2 movie that has SS and you will see it. Perhaps you never noticed it before, you will now.

The issue is people who are defending the tattoo are leaning into revisionism. Pointing out various skull and crossbones designs have been used previously does not change the fact it was used by the Nazis. One, or several, or many people not recognizing it does not mean it wasn't used by the Nazis. Asserting it is not a Nazi symbol does not change the fact it was a Nazi symbol.

I believe it is being done on an emotional level out of a passionate desire to support a candidate not out of general maliciousness. Those defending the symbol are stepping over a line without realizing what, exactly, they have started to defend.

Defend the tattoo- not the symbol

I think they are trying to excuse, clumsily in some cases, the bad or mistaken decision of a candidate they see as the only hope to defeat an acting fascist who is a danger to our now fragile democracy. I'm glad you don't see it as malicious.

I can accept people who disagree with me, c'est la vie.

My issue is disagreeing with facts, that's what Republicans do.

Peace.

I think it’s being excused as a youthful indiscretion that’s just not easy to erase once regretted. I haven’t seen him promoting Nazi shit anywhere beyond this.

The alternative here is to continue with someone backing our current fascist monster, which is much, much worse. *shrug*

In this thread

Primary is next week.

She stepped aside for Platner
Because of the controversy she is starting to campaign but it is probably too late

Whether she is actively campaigning or not.

Are we going to try another Biden-Harris last minute switcheroo because the right wing media insists on it yet again, and the conservative democrats jump on the right wing bandwagon? Didn't work out too well in 2024.

so far ahead of the election, and before a lot of information about him became public.

No money, age a big issue, candidacy on hold, low enthusiasm from supporters...

As a Mainer I voted for Mills twice but she don't have a chance in hell beating Platner.

Be given credence. In fact everyone should use them because it would take away any importance. The symbol on Toyota is from the Bataan Death March. Where's the outrage over that?

What the Nazis did was terrible and disgusting. a tattoo doesn’t mean that you’re doing bad things like the Nazis. you’re making that connection

I keep trying to turn the discussion away from the tattoo because that is not what I am talking about.

To want the Democrat to win. There is no excuse for defending this.

We rallied around Becerra here when Swalwell was exposed, same can happen in Maine

Out of all the Democrats in Maine this guy who voted for Trump three times is our only choice, our only hope?

That's insane.

He has said he voted for Susan Collins, and he's said that he understands why people voted for Trump.

It did say he strongly opposed Hillary in 2016, so I take that to mean he didn’t vote for her, but I didn’t see anything about his voting for Trump.

Little did he know.

Multiple tattoos some of which are white supremacist symbols.

If he had the exact same tattoo.

Has nothing to do with his tattoos.

It goes WAY beyond that. He could be comepletely un-tatted and I'd still hate him.

claiming they are not white supremacist?

It is about a Nazi symbol. Why are people claiming it is not a Nazi symbol when it has repeated been shown the specific version I posted is a Nazi symbol?
Are we going to start saying well it's not really Nazi because historically the swastika came from....

Someone sent a hateful reply to my post yesterday saying that exact thing.

I support your argument.

but several posters immediately went to what I was not asking.

And there is zero question we would see such defense if the shoe was on the other foot (or skull on the other chest).

NT

Republicans don't attack republicans, no matter the crime, sin, immorality.

We attack Al Franken because of a joke of questionable taste.

If Dems are way up, or way down, we can afford to be judgemental.

It seems there's a funny calculus in this race.

But, to be practical, I'd vote for the Dem.

It’s pretty hard to stand on high moral ground when the opposition is metaphorically shooting at you. I don’t live in Maine, so it’s not my call. Though, if Republicans can enthusiastically support Trump and Paxton, I suppose I could less than enthusiastically vote for Platner. A vote is a vote regardless of the enthusiasm behind it.

I’m kinda surprised Platner didn’t get the tattoo removed when its history was revealed, though.

Did he get it with a bunch of buddies who went to a tattoo parlor after drinking? Does he believe anything Nazi? We already know the gang on the right espouse Nazi beliefs.

Bet those people didn't care to find out if he has any fascist beliefs.

But the damage is done.

Fwiw now, there is no evidence this jokingly self-proclaimed "supersoldier for antifa" has any fascist or neo-nazi beliefs. None.

And getting a tattoo while drunk is excusable, keeping it for almost 20 years and then having people say you know what it was but then lying and saying you didn't know what it was and then covering it up as soon as the Press finds out seems a lot more questionable to me, ymmv

thus allowing Collins to keep her seat.
There is no purity in politics. I wish people would understand that.

Unfortunately I don't live in Maine, so I will not be able to vote for him.

I just don't get it.
To me, that means that one should withhold support.
If it means something else, please explain.

Do you think that Platner is a Nazi?
Other than the tattoo, what would make you think that way.

Would you have withheld support support of Bill Clinton because of the Monica Lewinsky scandal?

If this is what has come out before the general election I hope there is no more.
I don't think he is a nazi but it sounds like he knew what the tattoo was and then lied & said he didn't. Not a good look IMO, ymmv

Our holier than thou approach is why the right wing has more power than we do. The perfect has become the enemy of the good and us only playing by outdated rules is more dangerous than the actual nazi fans we are trying to defeat.

I don’t care if he has a nazi or a Calvin pissing tattoo at this point.

There were a lot of really bad men in the past history that are heroes because they actually did the right thing for the American people. That is all our focus should be.

Franken didn't just take an incredibly creepy picture. Tweeden and 7 other women accused him of inappropriate touching. If you want to justify thinking he shouldn't have resigned, at least be honest about what he was accused of.

https://time.com/5042931/al-franken-accusers/

The accusers are largely either anonymous or hardly a case to be pushed out of the Senate with no investigation or chance for redemption . In the case of being “handsy” in photos—None show this. Tweed herself has video of her being very handsy on stage with one of the male USO entertainers. And she was a buddy of Hannity’s so sorry, she led this and was not credible but of course, the press and the Dems didn’t push back.

Kissing two guests on his Air America show? Did his staff corroborate this consistent pattern of behavior? So, a few accusation of tush groping, attempted kissing and anonymous propositions to enter a bathroom is a reason to be kicked out of the Senate in the Trump era???!

Having a few instances of being an ALLEGED creep that didn’t adhere to boundaries back in the era when it was somewhat acceptable is not a reason to tar and feather without due process, especially when half the American people voted for a god damn p-grabber. He could have been censured and that would have been how the Senate handles punishment, beyond the costs and embarrassment of the accusations.

This is what I mean about the Dems playing by rules that havent been relevant since Jimmy Carter was president and even then, they were waning. That is why we are in the horrible political positions we are in today. FOCUS on what is important and understand the real enemy we are up against.

Franken is brilliant and an honorable man that was a threat to the Reich Wing. He was a model senator who tried to carry his dear friend Sen. Paul Wellstone’s legacy and mission to help the People and fight truth to power. The Reich Wing played the oldest trick in the book against him and you and others took the bait and will never admit it. Well, you won a “perfect being the enemy of the good” battle but lost the war with losing Franken in the senate.

Also you're still diminishing it because you are stuck in hero worship. Do you have examples of 8 independent sources, several of which had contemporaneous outcry witnesses (you know just in case he ever ran for office), all lied about a man groping them? The hero worship thing is strange. He's just a guy. Flawed like everyone. Not everything is a secret conspiracy. In fact, most things aren't.

The Senate has ways of dealing for misconduct if it is proven and deemed so. You can demean hero worship all you want (it’s called forming an opinion based on facts) , but when there are people who you admire that stand out and are good legislators and CARE, I don’t believe in always throwing the baby out with the bathwater by a pitchfork mob that republicans have conditioned to be afraid of their own shadow. We need fighters and Franken was doing that and certain people and legislators knee jerked in this case given it was the frenzy of the Me Too movement. Many today express regret on jumping too fast, including Franken.

The man was honorable enough to resign for the good of the party but he should not have. My opinion at the time against the pitchfork mob and it has aged well today. Tweed is a scumbag and was surprised that it was so easy to taken him down. She said she didn’t want him to resign, which I don’t necessarily believe that given how she addressed the situation.

But she groped and grinned on country singer Craig Morgan on stage. They were both out of line. Franken paid a big price for a very small offense by a friend of Hannity.

We will agree to disagree. I am just glad we have a lot more fighters now that don’t fall for the right wing narrative and traps. But we still have Democratic voters that do.

He was forced out before that could happen.
So we will never know whether the accusations were justified.

True to form the democrats chickened out.

So you’ve decided that’s just fine for Democrats too? Gas chambers aren’t a purity test. 6 million Jews died under that symbol.

Who works for actual nazis
Their concentration camps are already up and running
Platner is a shaky choice and may end up going full Fetterman
But WE KNOW who Collins is and what she will support

I would like a decent Democratic nominee, though that seems impossible at this point. I would also like to belong to a community that doesn't justify abusive behavior and self-expressed Nazi affiliation. That, I realize, is even less likely.

It is possible to even vote for Platner without justifying his behavior, yet people feel compelled to reveal themselves. Most of us don't even live in Maine, which makes the justifications all the more puzzling and unnecessary.

It's not a Nazi symbol. It's a symbol used by some Nazis.

There is a meaningful difference.

Doesn't matter, anyway. He's going to be the nominee and he's going to win in November.

And that's a good thing.

So is that just another symbol as well?

...and you know it. So just stop.

Although TBF the SS lightning runes are a more direct comparison but all three (swastika, SS runes, Totenkopf) were notoriously used by the Nazis.
What makes one, or more, of them not Nazi symbols?

...I had no idea what a "Totkopf" was. I'm willing to wager a large amount of money that that was the case for a huge majority of Americans.

The swastika is recognized universally as a symbol for Nazis.

Really, just stop.

Whether or not "many Americans" do not recognize it, and I can say with equal proof the huge majority of Americans do recognize it, its history is undeniable.

What can people not say "I learned something and believe a person made a mistake from ignorance' without trying to rewrite history>

You're the one asserting that Platner knew it was "a Nazi symbol." The evidence you are offering is that *you* knew it was "a Nazi symbol." That would be relevant if you had gotten the tattoo. So, you need to offer some verifiable evidence that Platner knew it "a Nazi symbol" at the time he got the tattoo. Otherwise, you simply are making an unfounded and meaningless accusation.

So just stop, unless you can provide such verifiable evidence...which you can't.

...then the tattoo is irrelevant entirely. You're just wasting your time and the time of everyone reading this. So...

...just stop.

Sorry I will never stop that.

I posed my question and what it was not about very clearly.

I have amply demonstrated that the tattoo is a non-issue at this point. So, you have a nice day!

Enjoy your day.

So, what's your point -that drunk young men make poor decisions? I hate to break it to you, but that's pretty widely known. But that, too, is irrelevant since Platner is no longer young and appears to be reasonably sober.

I was never asking about the tattoo.
I was asking about the Nazi symbol.

If you read the entire OP, and not add any words I did not say, you will see that was always my point.

The only reason you care is about the tattoo. Attempting to cast it as people defending Naziism or its symbols is both disingenuous and ineffective. No one is defending Nazis or their symbols. They are defending Platner -full stop.

simply, clearly and honestly. You keep adding words and motives I do not have.
There is no point to continuing an exchange when someone is not acting in good faith.

Go back to enjoying your day.

Your OP is disingenuous nonsense. You cannot show me one person "defending Nazi symbols"...probably on this site. Certainly, there are none in this thread.

Your OP is a smear against Platner and those who support him, your rationalizations notwithstanding.

But I do know the swastika is a hate symbol. Skulls are everywhere. I have band T-shirts with evil looking skulls on them. Excuse me for not being an expert on nazi skulls. Anybody that spends time in tattoo shops knows that design sheets are grouped by theme. Page after page of assorted skulls. They are not labeled, like this one is a pirate skull, this one is a nazi skull. Just flash sheets with a lot of skulls. And not every tattoo has a deep meaning, or expresses a belief. Sometimes you are there just for the experience of getting tattooed. Sometimes it's a bonding moment among friends. I can't believe how people are trying to force meaning onto this.

These unfair, and frankly pathetic, smears should be beneath us.

the Las Vegas Raiders football team logo is a Pirate with a helmet and crossed swords.



Many cultural items use Pirate iconography like Pirates of the Caribbean or kid's birthday parties.



But the Raiders Iconography is unique in it's design and "belongs" to the team...





The Nazi SS (a combination military and quasi military organization with millions of members) also used logos, AKA iconography.



And it differed from simple skull n bones.

Some folks, like me, did not know. I have no problem believing Platner may not have known, as well.

didn't have it labeled as the "Nazi Totenkopf"!!!! Just another in a collection of skull and bones which a young man thought 'looked cool'.

The Swastika is more universally recognized as a 'Nazi symbol'--- the others much less so--
unless you spent a lot of time studying Nazi uniforms.... which I never had a good reason to do.

Hell, I consider myself a pretty good layman historian on World War II,
I know all about the Holocaust and the SS and the death camps,
but I mostly read--- perhaps I didn't spend enough time viewing Nazi uniforms,
or read books that had enough pictures in them of their uniforms--
because when this whole controversy first arose, I didn't recognize it for any kind of
symbol used by the Nazis , EITHER--- and I'm sure a young drunk Marine didn't.

If he learned what it meant before he admits, well, so the fuck what!
Getting a tattoo removed is no small thing,
neither is getting it covered up---which he DID when the matter came publicly to light---

If he learned about it earlier, perhaps he intended to do something about it,
but didn't get around to it until recently--- since it didn't show to anyone
who didn't see him with his shirt off!

I suspect people who keep going on and on about it have impure motives---
especially on the Republican side, of course---

and among Democrats, possibly some of those are really more concerned
about the fact that he was endorsed by Bernie Sanders!


If Platner was really a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer,
or a Nazi-Republican with little to choose between them--
he would have "doubled-down" and kept the tattoo---
but as a matter of fact it no longer exists!


But yes, the exact rendition WAS a Nazi symbol, one of many. I don't think anyone here is making some attempt to rehabilitate it.

and thank you- it is a Nazi symbol

Kinda makes the other response...well...stupid.