Much different from my destroyer days in the early 70’s
Rock on women!!!!👏👏

...how the construction of this submarine is different because it will carry males and females.

I honestly didn't know they had been building subs differently for males and females in the first place.

They haven't been building subs differently for males and females...there just haven't been any females on subs.

roughly half of the crew is probably not even drinking age. A decent amount of those, are a year or less out of high school. So, yes, there are going to be "hijinks".

The worst, yes, but not the only. Pregnancies. Fights/jealousy. Missing from duty to "polish the torpedo". Inappropriate comments. Remember, we're talking about a bunch of teenagers crowded into a small area, and not a lot of freedom of movement on a sub. BOTH sexes can get into trouble in this type of situation.

I was always under the impression the military taught discipline.

but practice finishes up the course. Asking a teenager to control hormonal impulses can be done, but you don't always get success. Putting coed teenagers together, in a highly restricted space, can cause problems where a larger space wouldn't cause as much friction. And , on a sub, you may be submerged for quite some time, and no port call. Imaging living at work for a few months, no new people, same ones over and over, no windows, no sunshine, no going outside, unless it's for a few moments, standing just on the sidewalk, with nothing to look at but water, doing the same thing over and over. Don't even get to order out. You get whatever the cook decides to make that day, or snacks from the commissary.

...more selective in their hiring for those jobs.

under the conditions I stated, until you actually put them under those conditions. That's why there is a Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) that is the "law" for the military. Think US Code. Violations of the law are numerically listed, such as Article 86 is for unauthorized absence, IIRC correctly.

...that all of the difficulties you mentioned would be avoided with mature crew members.

Not necessarily older crew members but more mature crew members.

Pandering to imbeciles by designing ships around their immaturity sounds like they actually want foolish military people.

Out of xx graduating high schoolers, only yy will volunteer. Out of those volunteers, only zz will actually make it through "boot camp", the physical and mental tests failing some. Then schooling, where a couple more will fail. Then, to the duty station. A couple more will fail, but by this point, to get out, it must be something of a more spectacular failure, as it will involve the UCMJ. The armed forces needs a certain amount of bodies every year, and the amount they're getting now is behind what is needed, as I have heard. Now, unless you want to make military service mandatory, and only the most brightest and most mature will be drafted, we're stuck with the current program.

...by far, and we are in no wars or even war zones.

I highly doubt the military NEEDS a "certain amount" of.. wait for it..."bodies".

Also called "bodies". "How many bodies showed up for PT this morning?" This is not an offensive description for anyone that served. We know the meaning of it. What happens if we decide to downsize the military, reduce active units, etc.? If war DOES break out (like a sneak attack), we will be MONTHS getting our numbers up to where they should be. EVERY TIME we have gone to war, our military was not prepared, usually in more than one way. Keeping members on active duty, having those slots filled, allows us to absorb an attack, and have the ability to stave off the enemy while we build up more forces. Look at ANY military that has fought in the last 100+ years. Always needed more at the end than they did at the beginning. And, new troops are not nearly as effective in battle than more experienced ones. Having a minimal active force, to be quickly (and probably, poorly) trained green troops to fill out the ranks, is a disaster waiting to be called upon.

...our military is an extremely lucrative boondoggle for connected military contractor fatcats.

THAT is why it is so over-sized, costly, and bloated, in every way.

...building and maintaining the most effective, efficient, and prepared defensive forces.

The sale of unneccesary and grossly overpriced military contracts to the highest bribe-bidder would not be happening.

Anything specific?

'Fraternization' is a bigger concern.

Heck you can’t even fraternize with your supervisor. It’s a huge no-no regardless of rank.

You seem to think this only occurs in the military. In the civilian world, you can’t sleep around with the boss. We’ve seen many careers destroyed for being dumb. It happens in politics, education, law firms, and every career imagined.

...I thought the new designs were just about separating male and female crew members for some reason.

Put women on current submarines and get criticized for not accommodating to let the women have some privacy for changing, showering or going to the bathroom.
Put in accommodations, "it's only needed because all men are rapists"

I suppose they could send out a submarine with an all-female crew. What would the objection be then?

Didn't they recently have a coed crew in the space station?

and there are jokes about what they must be doing while stuck in space

They were just ship alterations performed long after the submarine was built.

Might not be the best idea.

Hell, I'd be at my local gym 7 days a week.15 minutes working out, 45 minutes in the shower.

It's normal to be attracted to situations that are pure fantasy. My gym isn't going co-ed for its showers.

Talk to you tomorrow.

Thanks a lot Tim Walz!


lol

Thank goodnesS they spent billions re-disigning the ships so males don't have to see THOSE THINGS!

In Minnesota, it’s the law. It’s an inclusive way to reach each person who needs one. No need for jokes.

The changes were fairly minor.

...I guess it's about time they gave everyone a little space.

Women had served as officers previously, but long after the ship was commissioned. New Jersey is just the first Sub to have women on the crew from day 1. It was interesting climbing around doing my engineering inspections and seeing women NCOs on board.

What you need to understand about submarines is there isn't any wasted space. I was listening to a call-in radio show once where the topic was "where is the weirdest place you've ever slept?" A Navy veteran called in to state that the weirdest place he ever slept was "under the starboard torpedo tubes on a Los Angeles-class nuclear submarine." And this wasn't any "find somewhere to crash out" deal - that's where his assigned bunk was. The worst part of it was he wasn't a torpedoman - he did something else on the boat and they assigned him to sleep under the torpedo tubes anyway.

Every cubic inch inside a submarine contains one of four things: working space, a piece of equipment, canned goods or a sleeping sailor. If they're going to assign women to these things, they need to make it so they don't have to change their uniforms in front of the other 129 people they're serving with. And "change in the head" is no solution because they're not forcing the men to do that.

That must be a BIG sub!

The berthing spaces are still open-bay, but there are doors on them so the sailors can change and not be in front of the whole crew when they do it.

Interestingly, another thing they did was to lower all the overhead valves so a woman of average height can turn them off without having to go find a stepladder - very important in emergency situations where someone might need to close a valve RIGHT NOW to keep the vessel from sinking to crush depth.

I thought they shared bunk rooms, not bunks, but idk.

"Sharing bunks" in the Navy is called "hot bunking". 2 or 3 sailors are assigned a specific bunk, they each work a different shift. 1 sleeping, 1 work, 1 off duty for 8 hour shift, 1 on and 1 off if 12 hour. (Didn't serve in Navy, but USMC. Know the concept, though.) Therefore, the bunk is always "hot".

...I wonder why they needed to change that now.

Thanks!

This is done pretty much on all smaller vessels (destroyers, etc.) as space is at a premium, and bunk areas take up space. The "change" now is to accommodate female sailors, to give them their own separate area. On an aircraft carrier, fairly easy peasey. Small vessels are more of a headache to accomplish this.

Low level enlisted are assigned a bunk. Sailors A, B, and C, are assigned bunk 1A. Sailor A works from 8-4. Sailor B works from 4-12. Sailor C works from 12-8. They are all assigned the same bunk, not individual ones. Therefore, there is always someone sleeping in bunk 1A. Mid level enlisted, I believe, are assigned individual bunks in a different area (NCO/SNCO). No one else uses their bunk. Top level NCO's, mid and high level officers are assigned rooms individually, or perhaps just doubled. RHIP (Rank has it's privileges). Hope this clears it up.
(The above info varies some from vessel to vessel, depending on size, etc.)

...seperate bunks for people.

Females will have their own areas, therefore, their own bunks. As in no male/female hot bunking. Hot bunking will be straight male/male, female/female. Perhaps this is where you are confused.

...I didn't realize males and females couldn't sleep on a mattress someone of the opposite sex has previously slept on.

For the showering, even if they only allowed the most polite, respectful, and mature males who would never look at or make a crass comment, a good number of women wouldn't want to be naked around men. There is probably a good number of men who might be uncomfortable being naked around women too. That's just how things are.

As for their bunk areas. They are out to sea for long periods of time. The act of masturbation is a thing that takes place. It's awkward enough with another dude (or woman, I suppose) in the bunk above you. Now imagine that happening with a male and female in the same area. Also, such close proximity might encourage totally consensual relations, but that could lead to pregnancies and also bickering amongst sailors. That is just an issue with humans regardless of age.

If so, I am curious to hear your reasoning.

By replying "B.S." to a statement, I am making it clear that I believe the statement was "B.S."

Does that help at all?

I'm also trying make sure I'm understanding what you disagree with so that we can discuss it further (or not). For example, do you find the part about some males and females being uncomfortable to be nude around the opposite sex to be bullshit? Is that similar about certain "private functions" being carried out in the presence of the opposite sex? Do you find it bothersome that I'm curious to understand your viewpoint in more detail?

I get those who are mechanics, but what else?

all the time. That way, of a real war comes, we're prepared.

Capt Ramius, Hunt For Red October. Train like you fight. That's what develops muscle memory, and habits. Train right, fight right.

Means sleeping in shifts in a shared bunk. 'Showering together' wasn't a thing. The shower on my sub was the size of a telephone booth, and we each had about 30 seconds to shower. (Rationed water.)

It doesn't sound like there's any separation needed if everyone gets to sleep and shower alone.

You're never alone in there.

More likely, the one room is changed to 2 rooms.

Submarine races...

but it does move, however slowly.

I think this is a (not the, but a) good leading indicator of tomorrow's obligations we've chosen to take seriously today.

...because naked bodies are scary.

As there were no females in front line active duty posts.

...but we don't bother preventing unmarried same sex relations in our new subs either, just unmarried heterosexual relations.

Unmarried heterosexual relations:
https://www.militaryjusticeattorneys.com/blog/2019/september/understanding-article-134-ucmj-extramarital-sexu/
https://ucmjdefense.com/article-134-ucmj-extramarital-sexual-conduct-adultery.html
If "we don't bother preventing", it's on the commander. There IS a UCMJ charge for it. Both types fall under it.

.... if the separation of sleeping quarters and showers by male and female isn't aimed at only preventing heterosexual relations while still allowing for same-sex relations, why did they do it?

I'm getting even more confused about this new sub.

Easy to separate by sex. Sexual preference, not so much.

I wonder why they don't just do that with male-female relations?

Sure would be more cost effective than building new subs with segregation units.

...undress or shower in front of someone of the same sex?

If you don't like showering in front of ANYBODY, then don't join the military. Boot camp, we had about 1/2 hour to SSS. Sh*t, shower, shave. Roughly 65-70 in platoon. In shower, had shower columns, 6 heads to a column. If you wanted to get done (we ALL did, or else...) it wasn't uncommon to be stacked about 8 deep around each column, because there wasn't one for everybody.

....THAT'S why adults can't act like adults. Got it!

Have a nice remainder of your day.

But it's a cool bumper sticker.

Last edited Mon Sep 16, 2024, 07:01 PM - Edit history (1)

People really need to grow up.

We had absolutely no illusions. We knew full well that if you put young men and women together on a ship, some were eventually going to get around to schtooping each other, and yes you can do it in a coffin locker, BTW.

Anyway, just like anything in the military, we rely on the leadership to lead, and set the standard for acceptable behavior.

Violations to this policy were no different than violations to underage drinking, unauthorized absence, fraud, or any other UCMJ violation encountered on single gender ships.

We welcomed women to these roles in the Navy, and we are a better force today because of it.

Building entirely new subs with modifications to avoid this stuff seems ludicrous, will crew members get to choose paint color next?

"100 sailors go to sea, and 50 couples return." This in the days before females were allowed on board. There will be folk having sex. There might even be a rape (especially on drunken liberty.) Overall, it will work because folk are trained to do their job, and they will be too busy most days to entertain more thoughts than working, eating and sleeping.

Our barracks were segregated by gender. There were no instances of rape or fraternization. But the hotels and motels just outside the post were at full capacity on the weekends with couples relieving the stress of the week.

Getting off base on weekends are not a thing on a two or three month underwater patrol.

But submariners are selected and trained based on their capacity for discipline, obedience, and mission-first outlook.

I trust they will do the right thing.

You'll be able to identify them by wheelchair-wide aisles, the handicapped symbol on the sail, and "Handicapped Mooring Only - Minimum Fine $25,000" signs on piers.

...in an attempt to get people to think about how wrong it is to build military ships according to this or that group's individual preferences rather than designing the ship for maximum effectiveness and efficiency.

The funny part is, no one seems to be getting my hints that these changes only satisfy the heterosexual preference for separating males and females and is wrongfully ignoring the fact that there will be many gay people of both sexes using these accomodations also.

It's as if the Navy is deliberately trying to show disrespect for anything other than the comfort of straight women with "fragile sensitivities". It's a very mysogynistic new sub design.