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Mr. Sparkle

(3,111 posts) Mon Nov 4, 2024, 12:53 PM Nov 4

Elon Musk lawyer says $1 million voter giveaway winners are not random

Source: Reuters

PHILADELPHIA, Nov 4 (Reuters) - Elon Musk's pro-Trump group does not choose the winners of its $1 million-a-day giveaway to registered voters at random, but instead picks people who would be good spokespeople for its agenda, a lawyer for the billionaire said on Monday. Musk lawyer Chris Gober was trying to persuade a Pennsylvania judge that the giveaway was not an "illegal lottery," as Philadelphia district attorney Lawrence Krasner alleged in a lawsuit seeking to block the contest ahead of Tuesday's U.S. presidential election.

"There is no prize to be won, instead recipients must fulfill contractual obligations to serve as a spokesperson for the PAC," Gober said in the hearing before Judge Angelo Foglietta. The hearing in the battleground state comes just one day before Democratic Vice President Kamala Harris and Republican former President Donald Trump will square off in the tightly contested race. Musk and his political action committee are backing Trump.

CEO Musk's offer is limited to registered voters in the seven states expected to decide the election - Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. America PAC says its two remaining winners will be from Arizona and Michigan, meaning that Musk would likely be able to continue the giveaway even if Foglietta blocks the lottery.

"The only people protected by Pennsylvania law are in Pennsylvania," said Richard Briffault, a professor at Columbia Law School. But in courtroom testimony, Krasner said he would seek financial penalties against Musk and America PAC. He said he would not seek to take money back from the 16 voters who have so far won the contest.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-weighs-challenge-elon-musks-1-million-voter-giveaway-2024-11-04/

14 replies

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Elon Musk lawyer says $1 million voter giveaway winners are not random (Original Post) Mr. Sparkle Nov 4 OP

So, it's simple fraud instead of an illegal lottery Fiendish Thingy Nov 4 #1

It's taxable either way, no? unblock Nov 4 #3

Yeah, even if it's a simple 1099, I think it's taxed different than sweepstakes or gambling winnings. Nt Fiendish Thingy Nov 4 #4

Ah, I see. A random lottery would be illegal, but a rigged lottery is fine! unblock Nov 4 #2

Running a false lottery is just as illegal as running a real one.. getagrip_already Nov 4 #5

Elon lying to voters is better? Okay. Bring the fraud lawsuits from those who entered. ZonkerHarris Nov 4 #6

As far as I can find, he only promised to give the money to "someone in swing states" William Seger Nov 4 #7

However use of the word "someone" could be claimed moniss Nov 4 #11

Since the cost to enter was a signature on a petition, I wonder how they could calculate "damages" (n/t) thesquanderer Nov 4 #8

If it wasn't random . . . SarcasticSatyr Nov 4 #9

The attorney throws up a little protection to avoid liability for a massive con. It will not hold up in court. Martin68 Nov 4 #10

LOL. So you just admitted to fraud? /nt spudspud Nov 4 #12

It's almost as if he's not smart JoseBalow Nov 4 #13

So just another Trump-Musk scam? City Lights Nov 4 #14

Fiendish Thingy

(18,506 posts)

1. So, it's simple fraud instead of an illegal lottery

Reply to Mr. Sparkle (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2024, 12:55 PM

Nov 4

That would also change the tax liability for the “winners” wouldn’t it?

unblock

(54,150 posts)

3. It's taxable either way, no?

Reply to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 4, 2024, 12:56 PM

Nov 4

Hmm maybe they owe fica tax if it's technically labor income

Fiendish Thingy

(18,506 posts)

4. Yeah, even if it's a simple 1099, I think it's taxed different than sweepstakes or gambling winnings. Nt

Reply to unblock (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 4, 2024, 01:03 PM

Nov 4

unblock

(54,150 posts)

2. Ah, I see. A random lottery would be illegal, but a rigged lottery is fine!

Reply to Mr. Sparkle (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2024, 12:55 PM

Nov 4

getagrip_already

(17,430 posts)

5. Running a false lottery is just as illegal as running a real one..

Reply to Mr. Sparkle (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2024, 01:04 PM

Nov 4

If actually not more illegal since you are fraudulantly gathering pii from people under false pretenses.

ZonkerHarris

(25,268 posts)

6. Elon lying to voters is better? Okay. Bring the fraud lawsuits from those who entered.

Reply to Mr. Sparkle (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2024, 01:16 PM

Nov 4

William Seger

(11,036 posts)

7. As far as I can find, he only promised to give the money to "someone in swing states"

Reply to ZonkerHarris (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 4, 2024, 01:36 PM

Nov 4

... who signed his petition. He didn't say it would be random, so he probably can't be held criminally liable for assumptions. Sleazebag.

moniss

(5,711 posts)

11. However use of the word "someone" could be claimed

Reply to William Seger (Reply #7)

Mon Nov 4, 2024, 02:46 PM

Nov 4

to give the implication that each registered voter who signed the petition had a chance. Think of it this way, if the Car Crook had said "someone" in order to entice people to sign etc. when in fact he meant all along to give it to a relative then he did technically give it to "someone" but the use of the vague word could be argued as showing intent to deceive rather than disclose the truth. How successful that argument would be would be dependent on the judge/jury making the decisions.

I will say that the standard in civil and criminal fraud may also vary from state to state somewhat and maybe a legal beagle member could speak to that but whether it's a preponderance/ reasonable person sort of thing or beyond reasonable doubt I do not know. I do know that people who try to play games with wording and make their arguments on that basis would rather not have to be viewed under the reasonable person standard simply because their "word magic", in order to be successful, would require a person to suspend a reasonable conclusion.