He thought he would have won but he wanted to unify the party so they wouldn't lose?

Totally unfair that the voters simply didn't recognize the choices they had, but that lack of recognition would have extended to Biden just as much as Harris.

as well, but they were not as nuts as Pelosi etc were in 2024.

Harris had a great campaign. But I believe 50/50 chance Biden could have made a comeback if Dem leadership had not piled on.

YMMV of course and we’ll never know for sure.

It worked. He used that same tactic during the debate with Kamala - he just kept talking over everything she said. It worked.

What do we have to counter that?

They want a reality show.

We should run a professional actor some time and see what happens. We might be very surprised.

for more than a decade even, that we should run actors. Look at the success over the years of Ronald Reagan, Jesse Ventura, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Trump. Not to mention celeb athletes like Bill Bradley.

I think the reality show/social media era only increases the relevance of picking a perceived “known” candidate. Too many ppl can’t or won’t distinguish between reality TV/the Bannonverse and actual reality. It’s like the Running Man come to life. People are voting for bread and circus entertainment, assuming that America will always be rich and powerful and run itself. They vote for the drama and owning the libs as if it is a game w/o real consequences.

You can tell this is true because of stupid stories like “Trump voter drives two hours to save $2 on bread.” You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know the math doesn’t work — you spend more on gas than you save on bread, but we’re expected to take these stories seriously as evidence of why the economy is in chaos.

The economy is the best it has been in this century. Wages have risen faster than inflation, so the average person (not all ppl) are better off than they were under Trump. Yes, we still have massive problems because of the war on unions, platform companies creating gigs instead of jobs, a privatized healthcare system, inadequate housing, and insanely expensive higher ed. But Biden didn’t cause these problems and he did his best to fix them through addressing monopolies, student loan forgiveness, ACA and Medicare improvements, and infrastructure investment.

But these problems were decades in the making and will be decades in addressing. But “Audience America” wants it wrapped up by the end of the season so they move on to the latest TikTok challenge and Deal or No Deal Island.

I’d vote for Matt Damon. Seth Rogen. Geena Davis. Whoever. Bring them on.

That was just the final nail.

Brianna Joy Gray etc who constantly lied about and smeared Biden.

His problems were real not made up

Biden's debate was a disaster. I couldn't hear him.

Instead of having answers at the tip of his tongue, Obama had to think for a few seconds. He wasn't smiling as much as he usually does.

Biden was having trouble speaking and he had obvious speech issues and throw in a few gaffes. I was in tears watching it.

In Obama's case, his problem was lack of actual debating over four years. However, on the campaign trail he was a great orator.

I went back and saw some of Biden's speeches. You couldn't hear him. His speech in Vietnam was similar to his debate. There were a few more speeches like that too.

afterwards.

‘Just pretending’ or ‘jokes’ or ‘satire.’

No...
Editorials are editorials.

A simple google search finds plenty of examples.


https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2011-nov-21-la-pn-pollsters-clinton-20111121-story.html

and donors were threatening to drop support.

In the run-up to the 2012 presidential election, Caddell was involved in the founding of a conservative non-profit group called "Secure America Now," which ran ads featuring Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu to target Jewish-American voters.[58][59][60]



Were they serious or fringe?

I also suspect the GOP was also behind Biden's ouster, but mainstream Dems ran with it.

There were not "plenty" of calls and certainly no real ones

when he kept insisting that he wouldn't step aside.

That is sad.

Harris was 50x the candidate of Joe on the stump and it was pretty much all she could to make all the battlegrounds tight. At least because of her competency she was covered like a regular candidate. After the first debate all the media would have done with Joe is pounce on his every flub and had he persisted with his run he would have obliged regularly. Even sitting on the sidelines his statements had to be explained away including the gaffe that knocked Trump’s Puerto Rican joke problem off the headlines in the last week of the campaign.

It's a good distraction. Let Biden work it. Maybe Trump the Felon will pop a blood vessel.

But Biden will go to his grave thinking he would have won. He’s delusional on this one.

You should at the very least respect his title when addressing him.

In the final week?

I mean, he does have a penis, which seems to be the key point to a whole lot of American voters.

would have something new to fixate on every day of the campaign. If we think the major media did a deplorable job covering this campaign, it would have been 10X worse with all the red meat Biden would have provided.

This kind of speculation is pointless, but he’s done a hell of a good job and I’m proud to have voted for him in 2020.

... though his administration's work on student loans.

Edit: Though I guess, to be fair, I should credit Obama and the ACA, though for a lot of years, I wasn't benefitting from it.

and they would have voted for Biden. But can't say if that would have helped to win.

1. Muslims
2. Non-muslims Democrats
3. Conservatives who might be attracted to a strong foreign policy. That is, these people appreciate the general image of America not sitting on its hands, aside from Yemen and the southeastern Red Sea.

The nationalistic, isolationist drive is strong among MAGAs. No matter how often it's explained how our support of Ukraine is costing us almost nothing, while holding back Russia from attacking other nations in Europe, the MAGAs believe it's all a waste of our money.

If an endeavor is successful, they would say "I was on their side all along."

Because I loathe war as an alternative means of diplomacy. I'm definitely not an isolationist.

Ukraine is under attack by Russia, which doesn't acknowledge Ukraine's right to exist as a nation.

I don't like war, but sometimes the choice is to fight in defense or give up and be conquered.

Putin won't stop with Ukraine, an outcome itself bad enough. There's every reason for us to help arm Ukraine to defend themselves.

I guess I'm thinking of all the other senseless wars of aggression we've waged. The point I was making though is that people who want to stop funding or end wars are not necessarily isolationist. It's never a great idea to paint those with whom one disagrees with such a broad brush. DUers can jump from one to all at warp speed.

I agree with you that most of the wars the U.S. has engaged in were not necessary or a good idea (except for those who made a lot of money off them).

My comment was specifically about Ukraine, though. Trump and his handlers have convinced a lot of Americans that ANY foreign investment is wrong, and that attitude is isolationist, nationalistic, and xenophobic.

I think our best chance to win was with an open primary from the start, from which the next leader of the Democratic Party would emerge.

Nothing against Kamala. She really impressed me during her campaign, but was handicapped by the shortness of time and the fact she was anointed the nominee rather than elected.

I don't think Joe would have won, and he was essentially forced out because Democratic leaders didn't think so either.

He would have won, being the incumbent.

I think she was unfairly hobbled by low approval (completely unjustified IMHO) of the Biden administration's work, as well as voter ignorance and apathy, propaganda and misinformation, Citizens United effects, racism and sexism, not necessarily in that order.

He would have lost for all of these reasons except racism and sexism, but ageism as well as perhaps justified concerns about his ability to complete the work in the 2nd term probably offset those factors to some extent.

He was an excellent president; she would have been an excellent president. I have never felt worse about the power of big money and the willingness of so many of our fellow citizens to perpetuate bad societal tendencies.

The nominee would have been battle tested while earning support in coming out on top.

IMO the biggest reason for the Nov 5 outcome was the spread of disinformation through the growing rightwing "news" networks and the cesspool of social media.

The Gish Gallop of lies, sanewashing, and gullibility of American voters won the day.

Were concerned about it probably had other reasons for voting against her as well.

Missing factors are the positive impact of winning the primary and Kamala's lack of popularity nationally prior to Joe stepping down.

Trump beat a primary battle-tested candidate in 2016 by effectively repeating the specious attack lines delivered by primary rival to our candidate.

I think Biden would have done better in the 2016 general election.

Being a woman makes it even more difficult to overcome any perceived problem. Being a woman of color (Harris 2024) even more so.

The biggest hurdle for any Democrat to overcome is the huge amount of disinformation in social media & RW media, with the so-called "liberal" media abdicating its responsibility as the Fourth Estate. It's being bought up by billionaires willing to kiss the ring of Mad King Donald.

Only once in the last 75 years (1988) has the same party won three presidential elections in a row. The electorate generally is ready for a change every 8 years.

Trump is a flashy candidate who appeals to certain kinds of people, but Biden beat him in 2020. It's hard to beat an incumbent. History shows that too.

But this is all pointless, anyway. I'm still very angry at self-identified progressives who didn't support Hilary Clinton in 2016. They brought us this evil.

I think the pandemic would have doomed whoever the incumbent was at the time even if they handled it competently, they would have gotten blamed for shutdowns and mandates and maybe even a lack of a vaccine, and tRump would promise to open everything back up maskless

Remember, the Benghazi investigation was designed explicitly to bring down her favorables. The Republicans admitted it.

And then you had despicable liars like ‘pseudo-progressive’ David Sirota lying about her policies and records and basically urging people to not vote for her.

He should have dropped out 2 years ago, it was obvious his age was a factor then.

Last edited Sat Jan 11, 2025, 02:57 PM - Edit history (1)

When the GQP underperformed despite Biden's low approval ratings? Maybe he would have bowed out after the 2022 midterms if there had been a red wave, but since there wasn't he felt better about his re election chances

If there would have been even a light Red wave, I think he would have declined to run.

operatives projecting Trump’s very real cognitive issues onto Biden.

after that debate performance his mental decline was also apparent. I think Trump is far worse mentally but the media ignores that. I am 77, I could say the same for myself and friends my age.

Undefeated.

Joe is the only one I've ever seen stand up to the cheating and grifting and the evil sycophants and beat him.

He's the only one I've ever seen who has been able to figuratively say, "Fuck no," and send him packing.

But no. He wouldn't have won this time.

Reps and Senators would have distanced themselves from him at a rate of knots, leaving him facing a sullen, resentful electorate

For all that we see in him, poll after poll reported two thirds + of voters said they did not want to see him run again.

There is not... but if there were he made the wrong choice.

What was he supposed to say, "Trump would have won"? The best thing Joe did was defeat Trump in 2020. Biden accomplished good things, but the "age thing" inevitably became a media obsession four years later. Biden should have declared he wouldn't run for re-election early enough to allow Democratic primary voters to choose their candidate.

The country recovered from Covid under his leadership. Respected world wide. I thank him for his totally patriotic service for our country.

I think he’s just trolling trump. He’s leaving office on a high note. A great President and even greater human being.

People may have their opinions but that’s all they are: opinions. If Biden wants to say he would have won, does it even matter? He was an incredible president who accomplished a more than any president in nearly century. On that we should be able to agree. He deserves our thanks and our respect.

It will take all of our time and attention to face what’s ahead.

n/t

Sadly. And still had the price of eggs and GOP propaganda machine that we can't match. Trump never stopped campaigning. Maybe tho. Woulda been two old white guys against each other.
Our campaign has to be continuous thru this mess.

however you can assemble it. Make noise!

without thinking it through. He was behind, he is old. He has articulate appearances, and some not so much.

That being said, a known entity is a known entity, and sometimes a credentialed horse with an enviable resume and record can sprint.

We'll never know, but the assertion that he would have won is possible, and not by long odds. It would have been a horse race, perhaps with worse Congressional outcomes.

No one knows, and no one will know.

George Clooney hurt the campaign by strongly repudiating Joe Biden as a candidate. Yes, he was a big donor but he didn't have the right to dictate campaign decisions. I think he made it very hard to right the ship after that and the campaign suffered badly because of it.

It truly was bizarre.

"Trump is so bad, that we will do anything to win"....
"I think we should have a mini-primary"

I love Harris, but yeah it was so bizarre....
And we didn't win anyway.
It felt surreal everyday to wake up and more Biden bashing from Dems.

And Roger Stone and Trump knew he was gonna resign before we did....

This whole episode is gonna pop up in history books big time.

There wasn't any Vietnam War as when Johnson w/d. It was just, "I can't win because I'm old and Trump is bad".

Force a candidate to withdraw late in the campaign if the polls look unfavorable. Wonder who will be next?

The Biden-Trump polling was terrible, and despite what some around here wanted to think, the polls this year generally turned out to be correct. Biden had a terrible debate performance, his subsequent speeches and interviews were tough to watch, and Democrats were on defense when the task at hand was already a tough one.

We had a fun time with Harris-Walz, and her loss is one of the most depressing things I've ever experienced, especially when you take into account the pure enthusiasm for her campaign. It's also true, as someone above pointed out, that there is some baked-in sexism and racism that puts Biden at an advantage over Harris.

I think if we could do it over again, the thing to do would be for Biden to have announced in 2022/23 that he wouldn't be seeking re-election. Ultimately, the truth is that we'll never know about any of this.

The "smart people" thought he was too old to run and should retire, that he couldn't even win the nomination, but he did and he beat Trump. Let's also not forget that in 1968 and 1980, the party showed a lack of confidence in the incumbent, just as they did last July, and back then we got Nixon and Reagan. Harris ran a terrific campaign but she faced a headwind from what happened in July. Maybe, just maybe, a little more courage and solidarity from the party should have been in order. That needs to be part of the soul-searching.

In 20.

And he was out, Black voters saved him and they very clearly were less willing to do so in 24, although they weren't the only ones for sure.

He also led Trump pretty much from beginning to end and even then it was a closer election by raw voters in key states than 16 was.

And that was Biden at his apex and Trump's nadir.

All of which is and was bullshit.

Some may have a short memory but I don’t.

Some personal animosity you have with some random folks on the Internet then. Got it.

Most people had resigned themselves to the likelihood that President Biden was going to lose. Once he withdrew and Harris took his place, there was a lot of renewed hope and people became re energized thinking she could win.

if Joe would've stepped down earlier and then allowed a primary.

No matter how excited the base was, the rest of the country was like "wait, who is this new person?" (there are plenty of people who are not on political message boards and aren't watching every minute like we are). Add the sexism/racism, and it's actually pretty amazing she got so close. I'm still having a hard time believing Trump won all the swing states, and I hate the electoral college system with a passion.

But, I think he would have lost. We had something like 5 million people who didn’t bother to show up to vote this time. This is purely anecdotal, but, here in Philly I could barely find a Dem in my circle or that I worked with excited about Biden. I was very worried about turnout.

When Kamala took over, these same people became engaged and involved. I am not saying it’s right or that it’s fair, but, I believe Biden would have lost by a larger margin. This is happening all over the world. Everyone is angry and taking it out on incumbents.

...Dems can be a real pain in the neck with their fetish for perfection. This is what I told all my lib-prog friends but stopped. They were all about to stone me to death. Meanwhile, the maggots stuck to their felon-rapist guy, n'est-ce pas? Of course, Kamala is top of the line, but should have jumped in in '28. Time was much too short to launch. Oh well. Oh hell's more like it!

I think that the Democratic Party acted shamefully in disregarding the expressed will of their voters in the primaries and badgering and bullying Mr Biden until he "voluntarily" withdrew his name from consideration. I'm amazed that nobody even seemed to notice or care that the Party was doing the exact thing they accused their opponents of planning to do.

But Joe bowed out, and everybody decided to put lipstick on the pig and pretend it was the best for everyone. The event turned out not to meet those pretenses, but that doesn't prove they were wrong, just as a victory would not have proven they were right.

Mr Biden ought to be clear out of fucks to give at this point, so if he wants to get a little salty with the Party that treated him so unfairly, I can fully understand it. The irony is that Joe was a pretty good President, all things considered, but there was no way the media, the voters, or the Parties were going to let that make a scintilla of difference.

-- Mal

His campaign was life support and then he won big in South Carolina and then all of a sudden most of the Democratic field dropped out and endorsed Biden and the primaries were basically over. Why did do that? It wasn't because of his charismatic personality or that they necessarily liked him. It was because they looked at the electoral map and knew their only path to victory was winning back PA, MI and WI and Biden for all his faults was the most likely to do accomplish that.

I understand that 2020 and 2024 were very different election years with different issues but I just personally have a hard time seeing an incumbent Biden lose all the rust belt states the way we lost them in November. I know the online progressives are having a field day scoffing at his remarks but I don't think Biden is necessarily delusional in his opinion. But the Democratic leadership freaked out after the debate and we rolled the dice by changing horses in midstream and we are where we are.

were the difference makers. What should have happened was an open race with a primary. I think Harris and Walz, with an additional two thirds of a year, would have won.

year (the autopsy) are allowed but this endless beating up of us isn't helping ourselves. Is there really any realistic analysis going on out there, w/ regards to the 2024 election? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised, since it seems like there are a million people sitting at home on their couches (including me, of course!), etc., analyzing the results, outcomes, and what's to come, unpleasant as it probably going to be.

Who in truth really knows 100% of what's going to happen, really?

Some meager thoughts of mine (all mine, and perhaps matching other thoughts already expressed out there).

-I think our nomination process got messed up, and we ended up w/ the crazy slew of two candidates for the democratic nomination for president in 2024. I still think that this whole process was messed up somehow, that we should have caught this upfront somehow, and not go through such a screwy process of switching candidates during the process, I am not saying that Pres. Biden or Kamala were defective candidates, they were both excellent people, on top of their game IMHO. I just feel that somehow, we should have done this whole thing better. I know, I know, how many times has this switching of candidates happen in the past?

Vast amounts of money distorted this election, when you have a $billionaire throwing tons of money at the election. THIS IS WRONG.

We must do something about this, or are the powers that be, saying that unless you have a $billion dollars or more, don't bother to run for president of the US or any other high level government office. Crap, we might as well put each and every position up for auction (and take it out of the election process).

The one who wins that particular office at auction (among many offices) takes their position, and then the whole cycle starts over for the next position in being auctioned, e.g., the VP slot, and so forth. Start the auction bids at a minimum of $1 billion dollars for the office of the President, along w/ the other offices starting at lower prices. Why not? We, as taxpayers might as well bring in needed funds and this is one way of doing it, and it's our offices that we are auctioning off the rights (four-year limit) to those offices (as taxpayers). The only ones I'm seeing win at these expensive elections are those that are selling the election campaign materials, at a billion dollars or more, per candidate. Why give the money to these companies? It's our asset (supposedly) that American taxpayers/American voters own. No one else does (in theory).

Ahhhh, I guess we are stuck w/ this system of government, one that is supposedly for the people, but somehow, this isn't true (IMHO) anymore. It's those w/ the money and that's it.

He could be right - ie, he may have some insight into how we lost, & how we could've won.

So, he should continue and tell us what his analysis is.

He's earned the right to tell us what went wrong and how to fix it. He won and lost elections, he has a lifetime
of experience, and he beat Trump.

I'm skeptical, but going on about that would just distract (and who cares anyway).

"he would have beaten Trump" The headline does not match Biden's statement.

Yes he would have won against the felon. But Clooney et.al. forced him out and Harris lost. This is what happens when we have zero leadership in the party.

The most effective attacks on Harris were those that tied her to Biden.

I don't know why he has to keep saying this. It's water under the bridge now anyway.

second term.

And like I said before, I didn't doubt Kamala's qualifications or ability to do the job, BUT I DID DOUBT that Dems and especially white voters would show up for her in sufficient numbers...

But when I think about how fucking lightning quick the Democratic Party pissed down their collective leg in utter panic over ONE fucking debate performance (Mark Warner I'm looking in your direction) and conspired to abandon Biden, I get very very angry