A free Palestine would be a Taliban-like state, says Salman Rushdie
Speaking during a literary festival in Berlin, Rushdie said: I have been in favour of a separate Palestinian state most of my life, since the 1980s.
But if there were a Palestinian state now, it would be run by Hamas and we would have a Taliban-like state a satellite state of Iran he told local broadcaster RBB on Thursday. Is this what the progressive movements of the Western Left want to create?
Rushdie, who met German president Frank-Walter Steinmeier on Sunday, said he understood concerns over the suffering in Gaza.
But he added: I would like some protesters to mention the role of Hamas, and thats a terrorist organisation. Its quite strange that political progressives support a fascist terrorist group.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/free-palestine-taliban-state-says-155707121.html
elleng
(135,264 posts)oldsoftie
(13,462 posts)JohnSJ
(95,447 posts)Think. Again.
(16,634 posts)...if hamas is allowed to continue to exist, and since hamas is a terrorist organization, why would that be allowed to happen?
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)Certainly not UN.
Think. Again.
(16,634 posts)But gee, maybe if people were concerned about the horrors hamas is causing to the Palestinian people of Gaza....
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)And that is what I see as well: too many people remain unconcerned about the horrors Hamas is causing to the Palestinian people of Gaza. Hence my question.
Think. Again.
(16,634 posts)...instead of all this absolutely disgusting talk of them being acceptable collateral damage, people of the world would want hamas stopped.
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)I am saying I don't see enough people of the world acknowledging Hamas' responsibility for endangering the innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza, let alone doing something about it.
You are saying that if there were more concern for the innocent, people of the world would want Hamas stopped. But then, who, if not people of the world, whom I don't see acknowledging Hamas' responsibility for endangering the innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza, could possibly express more concern for the innocent Gazans to persuade people of the world to want Hamas stopped?
Does this mean that you are relying on the people of the world who appear to show no desire to hold Hamas accountable to persuade the people of the world to hold Hamas accountable?
How is this supposed to work out?
Think. Again.
(16,634 posts)Last edited Mon May 20, 2024, 07:08 AM - Edit history (1)
...for the Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank), the fight between hamas and netanyahu's Israel will continue to harm them.
Edit to add:
Here's a positive step forward!
EXCLUSIVE: ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza war
https://democraticunderground.com/100218963180
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)My question is, where is the broader support for the Palestinians to rid themselves of their current rulers coming from, and how do you imagine it might happen? And, by implication, where is the broader support for the Israelis to rid themselves of their current right wing government coming from, and how do you imagine this might happen?
Relying on the people of the world, the same people I don't see willing to even acknowledge either issue, to somehow motivate themselves into any meaningful action, does not begin to address the issues you raised. I am asking if you have any thoughts that are actionable and go beyond well sounding and very agreeable generalities.
On edit to your edit: This is a a significant step, but it has nothing to do with the good will of the people of the world. It is a legal move. This action does not constitute broader support: on the contrary, it is very narrow in its application. This is actually something I was hinting at in hopes you would mention international law as the authority to address the issues you raised in more concrete terms than those you previously referred to.
Think. Again.
(16,634 posts)...or a military strategist, just an internet rando with opinions on the horrific activities of both netanyahu's Israel and hamas.
But anyway, you raise 2 excelkent questions when you ask:
"...where is the broader support for the Palestinians to rid themselves of their current rulers coming from...?"
and...
"...where is the broader support for the Israelis to rid themselves of their current right wing government coming from...?"
My answer to both:
The brave, compassionate, and dedicated student protesters are working hard on building that support, they would appreciate your support.
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)of wishful thinking in resolving any issues, let alone complex issues like the ones you have raised.
And I have yet to see a single student protester mentioning either the support for Israel's opposition to Netanyahu or support for Palestinian opposition to Hamas, let alone doing anything substantial towards accomplishing either. Not a single one of them. Most of them don't even have an idea of what civil disobedience entails. They are not protesting FOR anything that might remotely constitute a positive development.
They are an ignorant and entitled bunch of American elitists bored with their lifestyles who seek a dose of adrenaline high wherever they can find it, for their own self-indulgence. They get nothing but contempt from me.
Think. Again.
(16,634 posts)Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)It's wishful thinking.
Goddessartist
(2,066 posts)Excellent response!
wnylib
(23,951 posts)and protesters want them to stop.
Think. Again.
(16,634 posts)...to the Palestinian massacre Israel is committing.
wnylib
(23,951 posts)like Israel's is.
It's a war now. The massacre was what happened on 10/7.
jimfields33
(18,328 posts)And the other middle eastern countries get away with that. They are to blame more then even Israel.
brush
(56,830 posts)Please explain. And are they also to blame for the contunued theft of Palestinian lands, violence and killings by the settlers in the west bank?
jimfields33
(18,328 posts)They ignored them. Isnt that guilty? Last I heard if you allow death to happen and do nothing, you are as guilty.
brush
(56,830 posts)Seriously?
jimfields33
(18,328 posts)They can rebuild and put in a government they want. Sounds like a win-win. Quite frankly the last 30 years havent been great for them since they voted in hamas. How about a new paradigm?
brush
(56,830 posts)That will never happen if they're gone.
jimfields33
(18,328 posts)marybourg
(13,024 posts)theyre fighting like their very existence is at stake?
Eko
(8,324 posts)tornado34jh
(1,243 posts)Let's be frank, Abbas and the Fatah party have a lot of corruption in their party, in fact that was a big reason for why much of the Palestinians went for Hamas, because apparently there were nepotism, corruption, etc. But as far as I know of, those are the only two major parties in this whole thing. So again, who else besides Hamas and the Fatah parties are out there? It's one thing if you want to get rid of Hamas, but who is going to come in and fill that power gap? Unless Fatah does something really major, they probably won't get far.
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)Neither do I, but I am a bit more optimistic: in light of the Saudis and other Sunni members of the Arab League suddenly expressing their willingness to normalize relations with Israel, I see a window of opportunity opening for the Arab League to have a more active role in preventing the Talibanization of the independent Palestine. But that will take a great deal of effort and good will towards preparing the Palestinians for governing themselves, before they take over the responsibility for governing themselves.
The problem with the Palestinian leadership, however, is that so far they have consistently squandered every opportunity that came their way.
tornado34jh
(1,243 posts)But I get the feeling that even if he was, I don't think the current Israeli government would like him, regardless of if Hamas was there or not. Again, Netanyahu is no saint in this matter. He is a big reason for the mess. I think there is something else going on besides Hamas. When he was PM from 2009-2021, he could have gotten rid of Hamas, so why didn't he do so then?
lees1975
(5,482 posts)There is a willingness, among the Arab League, to normalize relations with Israel. But how willing? Groups like Hamas have a following among Palestinians because of the fact that they are the ones who have directly been displaced, as opposed to the other Arabs, some of whom live in relative prosperity, some in incredible prosperity, while Gaza and the West Bank are impoverished. Some initiative must involve economic improvement and security, which has a lot to do with why Palestinian leadership doesn't ever seem to be able to take advantage of their opportunities.
I think an economically prosperous Palestinian state would neutralize the influence of radical Islam. That's been the problem all along.
dcweed
(19 posts)The current iterations of Hamas leadership and the Israeli government have proven themselves to be f*cking butchers. The Israeli people, locked behind their walls and weapons, are nowhere near free. The Palestinian people are free only in their choice of death; starvation, bomb, or sniper. Now, through more generations, the cycle continues.
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)Inasmuch as liberal democracy is a benchmark for freedom (and of course liberal democracy is not an absolute benchmark), Israel is a free society.
Voltaire2
(14,591 posts)Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)Still playing the apartheid card...
Israel is NOT an apartheid regime, and it IS a liberal democracy. The only one in the Middle East.
https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores?sort=desc&order=Total%20Score%20and%20Status
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country#:~:text=The%20Human%20Freedom%20Index%20measures%20personal%20and%20economic,and%20Denmark%3B%20the%20global%20average%20score%20was%207.12.
lees1975
(5,482 posts)And there are somewhere around two million people in the West Bank, under Israeli administrative control, but who do hot have any rights as Israeli citizens and who are, in an area militarily occupied bu Israel since the late 60's, without civil rights or protected conscience.
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)the territories under Israel's MILITARY control, to be included in the freedom rankings of Israel, a sovereign state within its internationally recognized boundaries, its own laws and its own liberal democratic government elected by its citizens? The population in Gaza and west Bank is not Israel's population. Of course they don't have the same rights as Israeli citizens because they are NOT Israeli citizens! They are protected not by Israel's laws but by international laws and treaties, namely the Geneva Conventions and the Oslo accords.
Are you proposing that West Bank and Gaza ought to belong to Israel and should be annexed so they could be legitimately included in Israel's freedom index?
BTW, the 2 million Palestinians who ARE Israeli citizens, have their civil rights, including the right to vote and have representation in Israel's government, fully protected. But I am not sure that even they are entitled to "protected conscience", simply because I have no idea how you define it or even what you mean by it.
lees1975
(5,482 posts)Israel administers the West Bank it as if it were annexed, considers it their territory, and has settlements there, in violation of international law. It has tight military and economic control of Gaza. So both should count in their freedom index.
Are you suggesting that the Palestinian population of both Gaza and the West Bank have Israeli citizenship as an option?
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)that doesn't change with one's biases or sentiments.
https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world-research-methodology
You may find it unfortunate that this methodology makes clear distinctions between the territories it assesses, such as "whether the area is governed separately from the rest of the relevant country or countries", or " whether conditions on the ground for political rights and civil liberties are significantly different from those in the rest of the relevant country or countries", or "whether the territory is the subject of enduring popular or diplomatic pressure for autonomy, independence, or incorporation into another country", etc.
These criteria are selected for good reasons, tested for decades and found effective to insure accuracy in assessing the ranking of any specific territory on terms that are equal and consistent with any other territory.
You may also find it unfortunate that this methodology makes a clear distinction between military administration and civil administration, does not equate "annexed" with "as if it were annexed", or whether anyone else considers a territory to be or not be a separate territory.
And, apparently, they don't seem to give a feck about what other people or institutions think should or shouldn't be counted in their freedom index.
lees1975
(5,482 posts)This is a problem more than half a century old, created by major world powers who seem content to leave 4 million people displaced and impoverished to resolve an issue the way they determined it should be resolved, without consideration of the consequences.
Lots of talk about freedom and justice and who's doing a good job and who's not, is hypocritical as long as this ongoing problem, which is the root cause of the terrorist activity that keeps springing up, exists. Until there's a real solution on the table that will be fair to Palestinians, don't talk in terms of who is democratic and has rights.
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)Whether you consider accurate and objective to be right or wrong is up to you to speculate on and is besides the point. Despite your protestations to the contrary, Israel remains a liberal democracy. The only one in the Middle East.
Voltaire2
(14,591 posts)Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)on purpose, in order to render it meaningless. I also imagine that this is insulting to the real victims of apartheid. This is indeed embarrassing, to say the least.
I also imagine that such misuse of the term that has real meaning under international law is OK with you. I hope I am wrong.
Mosby
(17,175 posts)Diraven
(931 posts)They haven't brutally repressed and policed the morality of their own people, which is the primary interest of the Taliban. Not gonna argue that they do support terrorism though.
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)Response to Diraven (Reply #14)
Beastly Boy This message was self-deleted by its author.
ExciteBike66
(2,624 posts)Does Afghanistan not deserve to be an independent nation?
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)Because if it does, there will be no freedom for the Palestinian people, or peace in the Middle East.
And Afghanistan is a telling precedent. Afghanistan deserves to be an independent nation, but do the Afghanis deserve a repressive totalitarian theocracy to govern them?
lees1975
(5,482 posts)Independence and sovereignty for Palestinians, within the boundaries of the 1949 armistice line around the West Bank, and the 1950 armistice line around Gaza, will require the ability to achieve a measure of economic freedom and prosperity as well as personal independence and freedom within the context of the culture and society in order to keep terrorism from gaining a foothold. It will take UN monitoring, demilitarization of the territory, reconstruction and real investment in "nation building." There's a long history of dispossession, displacement and oppression there which has to be overcome and those are the kinds of things that breed terrorism.
thucythucy
(8,685 posts)an education, or lives free of religiously motivated sexual and domestic violence?
Kennah
(14,451 posts)LeftInTX
(29,529 posts)Kennah
(14,451 posts)I think the poppy of Afghanistan will outlast the oil of Saudi Arabia as a sustainer of their respective economies
betsuni
(27,235 posts)Propaganda Gold Medal for those who managed this.
sarisataka
(20,679 posts)you will see a chorus of "who could have seen this coming?'", "why didn't the US stop it from happening". Ironically it will be many of the same ones who are today chanting about rivers and seas.
Voltaire2
(14,591 posts)If the Palestinians choose to implement a theocracy, that would be unfortunate but it is not justification for the continued occupation and colonization of Palestinian territories.
Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)It would be tragic, first and foremost for the Palestinians, but also for Israel, the rest of the Middle east, and it would not spare the rest of the world.
How do you define self-determination? Do the Taliban self-determine their rule over Afghanistan? Does Putin self-determine his rule for the Russians? Does the Saudi royal family self-determine their despotic rule over Saudis?
All of the above notwithstanding, Rushdie is not talking about depriving the Palestinians of self-determination:
It is the state of the Palestinian State and the quality of the government that can be anticipated
post-self-determination that he is concerned about.
brush
(56,830 posts)Beastly Boy
(10,922 posts)FakeNoose
(35,145 posts)Anything Hamas touches turns into a disaster, and the long-suffering Palestinians have paid the price for way too long. Free Palestine will become a reality once Hamas is gone, and Netanyahu loses his job as Prime Minister of Israel.