Last edited Sat May 12, 2018, 09:57 PM - Edit history (1)

I think what they're making sound like a 'violent' reaction was actually a description of the phenomenon of 'kicking'.

There's a reason they call it 'kicking dope' ... a person thrown into massive withdrawals by naloxone dosing basically loses control over muscles and just starts flailing around ... it's not (necessarily) that the person is attempting to cause harm to others cause their 'high was taken away'. In fact, they are made instantly, hopelessly dope-sick, and loss of motor function, with violent-looking muscle spasms are part and parcel.

He probably also shit himself, not to be too graphic, but ... that's pretty typical.

Granted, the naloxone may've well saved his life, but ... I've seen what happens up close, and it is NO FUN for the person getting the shot AT ALL. It's pretty accurate to describe it as torturing someone.

ON EDIT: In a sense, it's an 'unnatural' situation that's created by giving someone this drug, mainly because of the phenomenon of 'half-lives' of drugs when the body is metabolizing them normally.

Depending on the opioid (methadone probably being the most 'special case'), while it typically only takes 4-12 hours before the user normally begins 'withdrawals', the drug is really not really 'fully gone' from their system for 3-5 days, so that's about how long it normally takes for 'full-blown withdrawals' to be in effect when someone goes without.

But what one is essentially doing to a dependent person by giving them naloxone, is to take them from a state of 'satisfaction' (though, granted, perhaps dangerously satisfied), to a state of being about 3-5 days into 'cold turkey withdrawals' ... literally within the space of moments.

It's going to be especially rough on people who've been taking methadone regularly, because the very thing that makes it an effective 'addiction treatment' ... it's very long half-life ... also has the side-effect of making it VERY painful to have it's effects suddenly taken away. They call Methadone 'the orange handcuffs' for a reason ... it's literally the WORST withdrawals of anything in the world, from what I've read.

To be clear, I'm not saying one should hesitate to save another's life with naloxone, only that its effect should be 'expected', and some discretion be used ... a complete novice, giving it to someone willy-nilly, only because the user has nodded off ... may not turn out well for all involved.

Really, sadly ... the only reason that the general public is being sorta 'given this drug to use for emergencies' is because the epidemic has reached the point it has. Optimally, a qualified professional should be making the decision whether a user actually needs to be administered this powerful opioid antagonist ... which IS going to cause SERIOUS and immediate (albeit, perhaps life-saving) distress to the person receiving it.

I just got done kicking a nine year opiod habit, was all prescription from day one but I decided to see if I could get off them.

The last six years at 180 mg of morphine in pill form PER DAY.

It's taken eleven days but I think I'm there now, a little bit of uncomfort left but it went faster than I thought it would.

Kratom and legal marijuana did it, lots of both but IT WORKED.

I can't even fathom coming down in an instant.

It wasn't fun but it can be done, I never had the mental addiction issue but my body sure loved it, almost over now.

Last edited Sat May 12, 2018, 09:19 PM - Edit history (1)

I do (perhaps unfortunately, but maybe not) have to point out, however, that getting off the Kratom at this point is going to be another spat of a miserable experience, should you choose to go that route.

Reason being, Kratom is a mu-opioid-receptor agonist as well, and while significantly more 'mild' than morphine, of course, there is inevitably a LARGE difference between taking 'some opioid agonists' ... and 'zero opioid agonists'. There just is ... for someone with a physical dependency ... even if it's just 1mg of hydrocodone vs. 0mg of hydrocodone ... a big difference.

To be clear, I'm definitely saying that you've gotten a LONG WAY towards getting well, so please, don't get me wrong, and you have my utmost support and congrats!!!

I just want to point out that particular detail. You are, perhaps ... not 'done' ... unless you plan on taking Kratom forever. Which you may very well prefer to do, I don't profess to know your situation, nor would I judge in any way. But that 'last step', should it happen to be 'your goal' ... is going to involve another rough stretch of 7 days or so. And it will involve a level of pain you did not yet just go through.

On Edit: actually, a 'type of anguish' is probably a better description than 'level of pain'. You very well may've been through the worst of the physical pain, esp. since you're taking morphine for a legit pain problem. And a lot of how 'anguishing' you'll find dropping off completely feels depends a lot on how you emotionally deal with the sensation of 'cravings'. Some people, for better or worse, feel really 'bad' ... about the sensation of having drug cravings. Like "I feel bad about myself that I WANT this stuff, I'm 'better than this'". You know what I mean? Dropping off completely will kick in level of craving that you didn't go through before ... I mean, I'm SURE you 'craved' ... but when you quit completely ... it's noticeably more intense and attention-consuming ... put it that way.

Not saying you can't do it (AT ALL!), nor saying specifically that you should fear it ... only that you'll want to be prepared, if that route is indeed in the cards for you. Word to the wise, is all ... and by all means, the LESS you're taking of the Kratom at the time you take that step (should you need to), the more it will help

But ... no matter how low one goes, the sensation created by completely quitting ... it cannot be entirely avoided. Not after 6 years of morphine (end edit).

Again, GREAT JOB. 180MG of daily oral morphine is no picnic to get off, esp. if you quit suddenly w/zero weaning from that dosage.

Considering the relatively low bioavailability of morphine when taken orally, offset by the usual impurity of street H, I'd say that's roughly the equivalent of kicking about a 1/4 gram a day injected H habit ... which is no joke of a habit ...

I'm just saying ... that 'last bit' ... where you go from 'some' to 'zero', no matter HOW LOW the dose, no matter how slow you've weaned ... no matter what the 'last agonist you took was' ... it's never a picnic. You don't want to have to go to your job (if you have one), put it like that. Have some Pedialyte, something like Ensure, something to help ya sleep, and LOVED ONES TO HELP handy, should you need to take that final step.

Best of luck, you're doing AWESOME!!!

It's not really easy but it sure feels like I can do it, the Kratom really helps but I will be stopping that also.

My only real issue is a buzzing in my lower legs that has gone down in intensity over the last week, when that's gone so's the Kratom.

I'm also looking for CBD only pot extracts but since they killed the medical sources and went all legal here they seem to have lost a large amount of the brain trust behind it, in Denver my sister can get that in a capsule for her "Indigo" pen but not here, they can't transport legal pot across state lines so all I have is locally sourced.

But I will continue on in this, I quit because of one fact.

All the little things that are so much of life like sunrises, birds singing, fresh spring air, the cold of Autum, the smell of leaves, the little joys of life are absent from my world because of the morphine, and have been for a decade.

I want them back.