Bookmarked to come back later.

I'm really surprised how many restaurants are on this list. Looks like guns -- and perhaps folks that would carry the damn things into a restaurant -- aren't as popular as the gungeoneers here, and gun nuts on right wing sites would have us believe.

Before there were smoking band of any kind, so restaurants offered non-smoking sections as a courtesy to the customers who don't want to take their life in their hands just going out for a salad and plate of pasta.

And then once it was the normal requirement to have non-smoking sections, so restaurants went 100% non-smoking because second hand smoke still killed a lot of people, including restaurant employees.

And then eventually the support was overwhelming, so now there is no smoking at all in most jurisdictions.

Why anybody would want to have anybody but a cop packing a gun at the table next to them is a complete mystery. I will simply not go to a restaurant that promotes that. I believe the market will speak regarding open carry.

That still leaves us with a lot of concealed carriers. Eventually these people are going to shoot up enough restaurants that those will be banned. And if a restaurant offers 100% gun free dining (with the exception of uniformed police officers), I will give them all of my business.

there have been very, very few in which such a person "shot up" a restaurant.

If those with carry permits often "shot up" restaurants you would see numerous incidents in Florida as the state has concealed carry reciprocity with 35 other states and well over 800,000 Florida residents have concealed weapons permits.

You have much higher odds of getting hit by lightning in Florida than you do of ever being shot by someone who is legally carrying a firearm (unless you are a criminal).

but in fact we know that there have been thousands just in the several months since Sandy Hook.

I don't have facts on this, but I bet the number of shootings with concealed carry are a lot more than you are implying -- just not getting attention.

That will change. If you are a concealed carry supporter, then you should hope that these Bubbas behave themselves, because it isn't going to be swept under the rug so easily in the future.

Several states such as Texas and Florida keep records on crime committed by those who have carry permits.

Florida has had "shall issue" concealed carry since October of 1987. In that nearly 26 year period of time it has issued 2,400,338 concealed weapons permits of which 1,052,716 are currently valid. A total of 7,436 licenses have been revoked for a variety of reasons, but only 168 have been revoked because of a crime committed after the license was issued that involved the use of a firearm.
(Ref: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.pdf)

The statistics from Texas show similar results and can be viewed at: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

But of course the Florida statistic I used only involves the criminal misuse of a firearm by a permit holder. To my knowledge no statistics have been gathered that show how many times a person with a carry permit has shot another person in legitimate self defense. What I have read shows that occasionally a person does shoot an attacker who intends to inflict serious injury or to kill, but more frequently the attacker breaks off his attack and runs when he finds himself facing an armed honest citizen. I personally know of several instances where a co-worker of mine faced an individual armed with a knife or a tire iron and the fact that he was armed stopped an attack. Still this is only anecdotal evidence and I will admit that I was not present to witness the incident.

The national media very willing to publicize any incident in which a person with a carry permit wrongly shoots another as shown by the Zimmerman/ Martin shooting. It's rare to read of a story in which an individual with a carry permit legitimately shoots another person except in the local news. However if a person with a carry permit has an accidental discharge in public it often gains national attention. Usually they manage to shoot themselves, destroy a toilet or a ricochet injures a bystander. This is fairly rare and usually is the result of what you call a "bubba" not using a holster, not using a proper quality holster designed for the handgun or simply foolishly playing with the weapon. Well trained police officers seem to have more accidents with their firearms than do people with concealed carry licenses who have had firearms safety training. To be fair to the police, they carry their weapons on a daily basis while many people with carry permits do so infrequently. In any significantly large group of people, you will always find a few fools.

The statistics that I have found seem to show that there is very little to sweep under the rug. Overall it does appear that the overwhelming majority of those with carry permits handle their weapons in a responsible and safe manner.

that does not allow me to carry my legally concealed handgun if I have a choice.

I usually call the establishment and explain that it has lost my business because of its no gun policy.

In Florida when "shall issue" concealed carry passed in 1987 there were many doors with "no gun" signs posted. After a year most had removed the signs as they realized that they had lost money and that those who have licenses to carry are not a serious threat.

But perhaps in some states such as Tennessee a restaurant that forbids firearms will gain business. If so, restaurants that don't will gradually adopt a no guns policy. In my opinion that is fair.

the glove box.

Parking lots can be far more dangerous.

Also leaving my firearm behind in my vehicle opens it to theft. I would much rather carry my weapon than allow it to be possibly stolen by a criminal who might sell or misuse it.

The article describes a self defense tactic often known as situational awareness. That largely involves nothing more than not walking around with a cell phone glued to your ear but instead be somewhat alert of your surroundings. I feel that it also a good idea to run from an attacker if you can and to make plenty of noise to attract attention.

I legally carry a concealed snub nosed revolver but that doesn't mean that I am looking for an opportunity to blow some fool away. If I am attacked by a person who intends to seriously injure or kill me and has the capacity to do so, I will use my handgun to attempt to stop his attack. Shooting another person is absolutely the last thing that I hope I will ever have to do. I would have to have no other choice if I did so.

years. Due to illness I don't get out much. And based on what is going on 'out there', maybe I should stay in more.

If you carry the handgun, you will use it to prevent any threat to your person or property. Much better to avoid conflict, carry little of value and let them have it. I have been acting this way for the last 30 years. I have no riches except a great deal of freedom. I do not have the flat screen tvs, the IPADs or Iphones, no fancy new car, no large jewelry collection for the wife, very limited credit cards, no gun collections, Locks on my doors, lighting in my yard, a neighborhood watch program, and a deputy sheriff a couple of blocks away. If someone wants to rob me, there is little to take that he or she could lift and sell.
You have the right to own a handgun and the right to use it to protect a lot of expensive things you cannot take with you. I also pray you will learn a different way of life that does not make you believe you need to carry it. It is simple, if you are confronted with a perceived threat to you or your possessions or ego slight, you are apt to use a gun .

My sensei was one of the highest ranked judo black belts in the United States. He had originally trained in the Kodokan in Japan and also held a black belt in karate and jujitsu. I attended his self defense jujitsu class which incorporated techniques from many different martial arts. The class was devoted to techniques used to disarm an armed attacker and how to fight and subdue an unarmed attacker. Some "tricks" might prove lethal and many would definitely disable an attacker and put him in the hospital. This was not a class that taught martial arts as a sport but instead was a class on dirty but effective street fighting. My sensei was very careful on who attended his class. He definitely had no interest in teaching anyone who would misuse the lessons he learned.

He told my class, "You only use the tricks I will teach you if absolutely necessary. If your situational awareness fails you and you find yourself confronted by a man with a knife or a gun, look into his eyes as the eyes are the mirror of the soul. If you feel that all he wants is your wallet, just give it to him. You can always replace your money, your ID and your credit cards. You can't replace your health as easily and you definitely do not wish to get killed. If you do believe that he will seriously hurt or kill you even if you do comply, then use what I will teach to stop his attack. You will have nothing to lose."

I am now much older and not in the physical condition that I was when I took the class. While I still remember many of the techniques, I haven't practiced them in years. A predator would consider me a weak member of the herd as I am now elderly and walk with a bad limp. I can no longer run away as a five year old child could easily catch me.

Still I have no desire to end up as a victim in the hospital for a long stay or six feet under merely because some individual would enjoy beating me up or killing me. If all he wants is my wallet, I will give it to him. If he attacks, I will use my handgun to stop him if I can. I have absolutely no intention of ever drawing it unless I intend to fire it to stop a violent attack.

If I find an intruder in my home, I have every right to suspect that he is very dangerous. It's fairly easy to determine if a house is occupied and break in when it is not. If the intruder obeyed my instructions or ran I would not shoot him. but if he attacked I would be willing to use my weapon. I'm not worried about my possessions as I have insurance and can replace them, but I do value my life and my health.

Actually I doubt if I will ever have to use a firearm for self defense as violent crime in our nation has fallen to levels last seen in the late 1960s. Still violence has not disappeared from our society and the chance that I might be attacked exists. I don't feel that I am excessively paranoid but just realistic. I've found that life sometimes comes at you in surprising ways and there is some wisdom in being as prepared as is reasonably possible.

We probably come from far different backgrounds and have a different philosophy on life. Chances are that neither of us will ever be a victim of violent crime. I definitely will not advise you to run out and get a gun for home defense or a license to carry one. After careful consideration, I have made that decision but I do realize just how dangerous they are. Firearms are definitely not for everybody.

As a former restaurant owner I recognize you as the ideal customer to be rid of. Year ago before smoking bans were so much in vogue, I declared my restaurant smoke free because of health concerns to my employees. I was a smoker myself at that time. Many people like you ranted about their rights being taken away and told me how I would lose business. Exactly the opposite was true. For every smoker I lost, I got 4 or more people who wanted to eat without smoke. I am absolutely sure that parents, children, young people, and most old people do not want to feel the person they have to share space with is carrying a gun. I am sure it intimidates them, and at a minimum makees them uncomfortable. But heck, I do not want to take away your gun, I just wish you and the paranoia that drives you to carry it in public places would stay at home. Do not worry, we patrons without guns are not terrorists, we are not thieves wanting to steal everything you have, you are safe with us. We just do not feel safe with you when you are armed.

It is your business and your right. I would not bring my firearm into your business if I noticed the "no gun" sign. I would just go elsewhere.

If you are in an area where handgun ownership is uncommon and guns are frowned on, you might well profit from a no-guns policy. Be aware that the "no-guns" sign on your door might attract a violent criminal who would avoid a place that allowed firearms. That is something that I hope never happens in your establishment. There does appear to be some evidence that no gun zones attract people with evil intentions.

I live in Florida where firearms and people with concealed carry permits are almost as common as palm trees. Violent gun crime in Florida is now at an all time low.

I am not saying that more guns and carry permits equals less crime, but if more guns and permits did directly increase crime it would be logical that gun crime in Florida would have shown an increase not a dramatic decrease.

I feel that you believe that I am paranoid, but I will suggest that perhaps you are in fact suffering from excessive paranoia. The overwhelming majority of people who legally carry a concealed firearm are no more terrorists or criminals than you and the unarmed patrons in your restaurant are. Nor are we cop wannabes or vigilantes like George Zimmerman. If I see something very unusual happening in my neighborhood I will call the cops and follow any and all instructions to the letter. I lack the desire, the training and the authority to play a crime fighting superhero and I know it.

On the other hand you have good reason to fear those who illegally carry a firearm. All too often they have a long record of criminal violence and often are quite willing to shoot their victims sometime for the sheer fun of it.

Statistics rarely reported by the media show that those who have carry permits are the cream of the crop of gun owners and rarely misuse our firearms or endanger others. I provided links to statistical data from Texas and Florida in post #11 above to support this point.

I found that I have become a much more polite and non aggressive individual since I fist obtained a carry permit over 15 years ago. I am far more willing to walk away from an argument that might lead to violence even if it makes me looks like a coward to an observer. I used to give another driver who cut me off, the finger. No longer. I just smile and wave at him. I've talked to a good number of people here in Florida almost all had noticed the same thing.

Since you are fond of statistics, what can you come up with about mixing drinking with packing a loaded weapon? That is what is at stake in the new Tennessee law, which permits guns in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol. You may "have become a much more polite and non aggressive individual" since obtaining a carry permit, but there are plenty of people out there who become less so when under the influence.

cause. It's a foolish idea to mix even a moderate amount of alcohol with firearms, cars or chain saws.

I can't speak of the laws in Tennessee but I can discuss the laws in Florida. In my state you can legally carry a firearm into a restaurant that serves alcohol but you can't legally enter the bar portion of the restaurant if it has one.

I found some comments on this list from a criminal defense attorney. ...



In Florida since 1987 we have allowed people to legally carry in the eating portion of a restaurant that serves alcohol and have seen no significant problems.

to have lost your business. And I would thank you for letting me know.

I respect your right to prohibit concealed carry in your business and I believe most other people who legally carry would also abide by your rules.

However I will point out that it is rare to see a no-guns sign on a business in Florida today. At first after the passage of "shall issue" concealed carry in 1987 they were very common. Florida business owners rapidly realized that honest citizens who had a concealed weapons permit are not a problem.

Currently 1,076,958 individuals hold a valid Florida concealed weapons permit and 945,720 are residents of Florida. Florida also honors carry permits from many other states.

(sources: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_active.pdf
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/concealed_carry.html)

by using a Florida argument. Seriously. Do you not read the news in your state? People are afraid to go there.

I bet most people don't really care about Florida's CCW laws.

There is a movement to allow open carry in Florida but I would guess it will face a hard battle before it ever passes as seeing Floridians openly carrying heat might scare off some tourists from Europe and some liberal states such as New York or Illinois. Paranoia is not uncommon among those who have had little exposure to the gun culture that exists in the Sunshine State.

I should point out that despite the fact that Florida leads the nation in the number of people with carry permits, gun crime is at an all time low.

I am not saying that more guns = less crime as there are far too many factors in the crime equation to draw such a simplistic conclusion. Still it would seem that if allowing people to legally carry firearms was a terrible idea, the gun crime rate would have increased not decreased when more concealed weapons permits were issued.

I've found that most Floridians who do carry on a regular basis usually carry light, compact handguns. The warm climate in Florida makes even wearing a light jacket during most months unusual and it's hard to conceal a large handgun under light clothing.

to contact a mass of restaurant owners & convince them to prohibit guns in their establishments.

Crazy

And welcome to DU!

I posted the original message because I thought it might be of interest to those who live in or visit Tennessee who would like to know about their options for gun-free dining. There are some who seem intent on diverting this to tiresome and predictable arguments about guns rights in general or "how we do it in Florida." You know who you are, and I would like to invite you to take any more of the same to the myriad other sub-forums and threads where your remarks would be more appropriate or indeed welcome. You really don't have to find some way to hijack every single thread, including this one. You should also review the purpose of state groups, which you will find under the heading for each state:
"This is a group, not a forum. Groups often serve as safe havens for members who share similar interests and viewpoints. Individuals who post messages contrary to a particular group's stated purpose can be excluded from posting in that group. For detailed information about this group and its purpose, click here"

and most restaurants and bars here allow guns,still a few that allow smoking.This has been law for 4 years now and I can't remember a shooting in a bar that involved a permit holder on the local news and none in my town.