and the Spanish government against the anti-democratic nationalist insurgency in Catalonia.

it can't be democratic to use the Spanish Army and the Guardia Civil(yes-Franco's Guardia Civil, a police force that was preserved for no good reason in the post-Franco "constitution" that was imposed by the Francoists in exchange for allowing nominal elections)to stop a referendum through voter intimidation. What Rajoy did can't be called anything but fascist.

I'm neutral on independence-and btw, nobody with anything close to progressive or secular political views in "Spanish civil society" supports the ultra-centralism of the Rajoy's Falange-sorry, but with this action, the "Popular Party" has proved it never stopped being Francoist at all-but there was nothing that was happening that justifies Rajoy's actions here.

The Spanish Right has never been about democracy. If it was democratic, it would never have launched a military coup against the elected Spanish government in the Thirties, and it would never have imposed a Castellano-supremacist policy on language and culture).

And what you don't seem to realize is that, as the senseless execution of the Easter Rising leaders created a massive consensus for independence in Ireland that did not previously exist, Rajoy's Falangist brutality has created a massive increase in support for either independence or some sort of radical-autonomist alternative to the status quo.

Last edited Mon Oct 23, 2017, 07:48 PM - Edit history (1)

The Spanish government's actions, and those being supported and/or taken by the majority of Catalan civil society are constitutional (or they will otherwise be challenged in the relevant Courts) and Spain's constitutional arrangements are democratic. Consider, for example, the details expressed in this recent opinion piece from the author Javier Marías (translated):

there was nothing in that editorial but invective. All the writer did was object to the claim that the actions of the Guardia Civil and the Spanish military were "torture". The whole thing could be summarized as nothing but "things are worse in other places".

And he offered no evidence for his bizarre assertion that the Catalan government was following the path of Mussolini other than "they're like Mussolini because I said so".

Rajoy isn't defending democracy...he's simply defending the power of the wealthy and the power of the centralized state. In Spain, centralization is indistinguishable from opposition to all change.

And the writer of that piece is basically saying "my dad was persecuted by Franco-so it's ok when I'M authoritarian".

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the streets of Barcelona protesting Rajoy. With the Spanish military there, with the Guardia Civil(and institution that has no reason to have survived the Franco era and which should have been abolished the moment Franco died, being replaced by a politically and socially neutral police service)patrolling, these people are risking their lives.

Of course the highly radicalised and mobilised crowds out in support of independence are part of civil society, and a highly relevant part very much to be taken into account in democratic processes, but they are part of a minority in Catalonia and they are doing great damage to Catalan and to Spanish society.

Police behaviour... generally, is perhaps a separate subject to be discussed in its own context? In this context, it was not good. Especially when in front of "international media", a cynic might say. But not grounds for smashing Spain in retaliation.

And there is nothing in what the Catalan government is doing that deserves to be compared to Mussolini.

As to the crowds...if another country's army was in the streets of your country, YOU would protest that.

There's no way you could seriously think even the people who chose not to vote could be ok with Spanish troops and the Guardia Civil(Franco's death squads) showing up in Barcelona. In what universe is that defensible?

Rajoy's party is the successor to the Falange. He's willing to kill to save his reactionary notion of "Spain".

The Catalan government is that of an autonomous region of Spain, not that of a separate country. Acts of the Catalan parliament leading to the widely boycotted 'referendum' and the 'referendum' itself were declared illegal by both Catalan regional and Spanish national Constitutional Courts. The independence movement's leaders are deliberately and openly defying the Rule of Law in a Constitutional Democracy member of the EU! In the UK the 'establishment' of the day might just make up whatever kind of 'constitution' they fancy as they go along but that's not the way it works here in Spain! It's the law and under that law Catalans are some of the most autonomous, free and prosperous people on this earth!

Ah, but some, and some of the most well-connected, are profoundly corrupt. And that's very relevant related history...

Spain has never been a country of equality under the law, nor a place where the Law has ever had humane or democratic intent, There, the Law is about privilege and nothing else.

I'm sorry, but every word you've posted sounds like it was written at Popular Party HQ. You are simply repeating Rajoy's "line". And you don't seem to have noticed that the anti-Catalan rallies in Madrid are now almost totally in the hands of the far right.

What are your sources?

English-speaking historical and legal "expert" (who needs to read and study neither).

especially one who's long been a champion of the Spanish state's anti-Catalan stance, from El Pais, a state mouthpiece, some of whose journalists have complained about heavy-handed editorial interference over the Catalan issue, is particularly helpful or illuminating.

El País does claim to represent the 'status quo', as does Barcelona-based La Vanguardia. Catalonia is and has always been a part of Spain. I am relaying to you some selected observations and thoughts from intelligent people on or close to the ground. I also have personal experience here.

Where do people such as yourselves get your information from? Can you provide some real examples of oppression in Catolonia in recent years? What about examples of liberation? I suggest you attempt to get on air on TV3 in Catalonia voicing a point of view opposed to the fanatics.

(The Government of) Spain's stance is not anti-Catalan. This is where the propaganda misleads you. Spain's stance is pro-Catalonia and against those who seek to cause great damage to Catalonia and to all its people by proceeding along this unconstitutional and quite suicidal (worse by far than Brexit for Catalonia) course.

It was conquered by Spanish troops in 1714.

Please read the history of the War of Spanish Succession and in particular of the Siege of Barcelona (1713–14).

Last edited Mon Oct 23, 2017, 09:21 PM - Edit history (4)

From 2015:

and some English-language sources! How refreshing, pero me rindo, I give up, homage to the superior races, two plus two must indeed make five when one senses the presence of room 101 right there, and after all life is short and growing uglier and there's a game of chess waiting at the café down the road from where we all disappear inevitably.

So now what? Let's say peaceful negotiations lead to divorce. Since all those commie EU countries are also fascist (ah, of course, same thing) and support Spain against the divine Catalan Republic (spiritual center Montserrat; has own Cardenals/Bishops/Opus Dei, rewrites history) the new Republic will do business, pay its debts and pay its way in the world how?

The situation is indeed more complex and politically loaded than a couple of glib quotes from pundits can summarize.

What I will say is that language like "nationalist insurgency", "highly radicalised and mobilised crowds", "fanatics", "the divine Catalan Republic" hardly make me consider it worthwhile spending much more time debating this with you, any more than I would with our more ardent and blinkered unionists in the UK.

In years to come, if Scotland pursues its own independence, then I imagine we'll be portrayed in much the same light as you're painting the independentist Catalans, and with as much understanding and an equally broad brush. We and our elected representatives are readily demonized in the UK's yellow press even now, using many of the same arguments and same arrogant tone you offer, simply for suggesting we may again seek to exercise our right to self-determination if a clear majority of our population support it. We don't know what the true support for independence in Catalonia is because Rajoy won't allow a vote. I suspect it's higher now than it was before he unleashed the Guardia and renewed his drive to suppress the media and suspend democracy in Catalonia.

What has been an unfortunate side effect of Rajoy's violent hamfistedness is a decline in support for the EU among those who support Scottish independence. They look at Catalonia and wonder who's standing up for the smaller sub-state polities in the EU.

This thread started because interest in Catalonia is nothing new in Scotland. Its predicament and fate has some superficial similarities to ours, and there have long been cultural exchanges and expressions of solidarity, including some of our elected representatives forming part of the international mission to monitor the recent referendum, where a number of them witnessed shocking scenes that should shame any country that claims the label of democracy and the high ground of constitutionality and legality.

You decry nationalism while vehemently embracing Spanish nationalism, you dismiss counter-narratives as propaganda while apparently failing to see the propaganda under your own nose and conveying the impression you think your resulting perspective is the only correct one.

That's a poor basis for dialogue. Sadly, Rajoy's regime is no more mature or far-sighted, and appears only too glad to have a convenient whipping boy to distract from its own corruption and mismanagement.

UK and the USA, then of course, as usual and on the basis of self-confessed ignorance, by all means continue to use, abuse and trash other civil societies, other democracies (&/or commie-fascist regimes(sic)) to such ends as usual and without considering the consequences (for others). There's a huge overt and covert political war machine, surveillance and professional post-truth propaganda empire behind you, after all.

¡Mi madre!

I'd prefer to discuss Scotland/Uk/International issues separately.

It's the terms on which we interact and the degree to which we do it that can lead to conflict.

The extreme alternative in terms of separation would be the idiotic, self-destructive post-imperial strutting that's accompanied the UK's drive for Brexit and an ill-conceived isolationism that embraces the fantasy of a country being granted everything it desires from some sense of misplaced entitlement while ceding little or no ground in return.

If Scotland wanted to behave "selfishly", as you frame it, then it would have kept a low profile during the current Catalonian unrest. Much has been made in the past of the likelihood of Rajoy opposing any idea of Scotland's accession to the EU if Brexit proceeds and another referendum leads to Scottish independence. He in fact chose to differentiate the Catalan and Scottish situations, but he doesn't seem like the sort of leader one wants to cross when he can wield a veto. So the selfish, conveniently diplomatic course would have been to cravenly remain silent.

As it happened, Sturgeon was one of the first leaders within a EU country to express public concern at the violence surrounding the Catalan referendum and the intransigence of the Rajoy regime, closely followed by Belgium, then some of the Nordic countries.

Note that neither she nor I have stated categorically that Catalonia should be independent. The principle of self-determination means precisely that. But if Rajoy is so certain of the majority Catalan opinion, then logic would dictate that he'd let a referendum proceed and not send in the stormtroopers against nonviolent crowds.

As it is, it looks like there'll be elections in Catalonia in a few months' time. Unless Rajoy chooses to incarcerate the entire leadership of all the opposition parties in that region or restrict voting rights or otherwise suppress turnout by whatever means, then maybe we'll have a clearer indication of public opinion.

No good can come of what is happening in Catalonia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41783238

With the Tories, nothing has changed.