My significant other's Dad passed away before I could. I probably would have...not out of any archaic tradition, so much as simple respect for the man. Truth is, the only permission I needed was that of my significant other...however, she'd approve giving consideration to her dad... that and he liked me an awful lot, so it would just be a courtesy-by-formality.

Of course, both couples had been talking about marriage prior, so it was no surprise. One was about to move in together.

And they did not ask for permission; we are all christians, but of the moderate to liberal kind. They came to both of us, told us they were going to propose with "the ring," and asked for our blessing. I remember those conversations well, because we were able to have a truly serious moment with each of them and tell them we loved them and were excited that they were going to be a part of our family.

Lord almighty, one waited like three weeks before actually proposing. I thought I was going to explode

But we'd been together for 9 years, 7 of which we lived together. So I popped the Q the day we finally bought our own home. My FiL shook my hand and said congrats a few hours later when we saw them.

He's a good dude. There's alotta respect between us. But I don't believe the permission thing is how he rolls. After all, he knocked up my MiL in high school & they married on the fly. They just celebrated 35 years in August.

There are a lot of things about marriage that make no sense to me.

Somehow, that seems even worse.

I meant the potential groom asks for the permission of the potential bride's father and mother at the same time.

The tradition is you're supposed to ask the father, or both parents I thought nowadays, if it's OK first. That was the point of the OP, unless I missed something in translation and they got engaged before all that.

Again, don't ask me. I don't understand this marriage tradition crap.

Now, though, I think you're right. The emphasis is on surprise but it just seems weird to me, as a woman, to want a surprise like that. My husband and I knew we would get married and talked about it all the time. A surprise proposal would have been contrived. I just don't get it.

.... Is because the daughter was essentially his property... By custom if not by law.

The continuation of that custom is deplorable to me, though most men who do it say it's about showing respect to the bride's family.

But respect for what? What if they say no? If they say no and you do it anyway, then it's just a continued expression of support for ancient patriarchy, but a hollow one.

Screw that. I didn't ask. The answer I was interested in was the one my wife-to-be gave, and if my daughter's future husband does that, he is going to get an earful.

For one, I wouldn't have necessarily expected them to say yes. They'd had plenty of issues with our relationship already. (They've since come around, and I get along fine with them now.)

For another, I didn't see his permission as particularly relevant, since it was her life and she was not his property. "Her hand" wasn't his to give or to withhold. In my case, it would have felt like a betrayal or a sign of disrespect to her in some way, though I am not saying it always is. But I agree with you that it seems archaic.

point there was little point everyone in the family was waiting for me to ask her.

to their parents, in person, that they are engaged. That being said, it seems the intended groom, in this case, is old fashioned. If he's over 30, it's about manipulation and not about tradition or old fashioned values.

I'm not sure what the manipulation would be though.

The manipulation might be the signal it sends the wife to be, that men are in charge.

That is definetly not the case here.