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NNadir

(34,533 posts)
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 07:46 AM Sep 2023

Range of the carbon costs of pumped hydro energy storage.

Around here, we often hear absurd suppositions that energy storage is the same as primary energy.

No matter how many times I point to the irrefutable and immutable 2nd law of thermodynamics, we still hear this nonsense on a planet where energy is dominated by dangerous fossil fuels.

The worst cases of these are the hydrogen scam followed by the battery scam, both of which are destructive to the environment.

A third example exists, which used to show up around here from time to time, pumped hydro storage. It is also subject to the 2nd law, but the question is how much energy is lost in the storage process.

I'm not going to go through this paper which I will link below in any detail at all, but just produce the range of carbon costs of this scheme, which in any case will depend on access to water, said access being less than secure owing to the fact that after half a century of jawboning about the grand reactionary so called "renewable energy" scheme and the expenditure of trillions of dollars on it, climate change remains completely and totally unaddressed.

To make matters worse, people are squandering vast sums of money on energy storage when primary energy remains dirty requiring the use of more primary energy.

This brings me to the paper in question, this one: Life Cycle Assessment of Closed-Loop Pumped Storage Hydropower in the United States Timothy R. Simon, Daniel Inman, Rebecca Hanes, Gregory Avery, Dylan Hettinger, and Garvin Heath Environmental Science & Technology 2023 57 (33), 12251-12258.

From the text:

Previously reported values for life cycle GWP of PSH vary widely. Estimates range from 5.6 g CO2e kWh–1 to more than 650 g CO2e kWh–1. (2,9,28) The large variance in GWP estimates from PSH can be attributed, in part, to variable assumptions in the plant lifetime, plant capacities, data provenance (e.g., actual operating facilities (2) vs simulated facilities, (8,9,25)), facility type and vintage (e.g., open vs closed-loop), facility location, and assumptions regarding the source of electrical energy being stored. Results of our Base Case are commensurate with those reported in the literature with similar LCA assumptions regarding the source of stored electricity. Oliveira et al. (8) report GWP from PSH to be ∼100 and less than 50 g CO2e kWh–1 for electricity stored from photovoltaic and wind power sources, respectively. Similarly, Abdon et al. (9) report estimated GWP to be between ∼50 and 150 g CO2e kWh–1 for PSH storing wind-derived electrical energy.


The wind industry and solar industry are tiny and insignificant according to the most recent World Energy Outlook, despite the expenditure of trillions of squandered dollars, and loud cheering. (The 2023 version of the WEO should be out in November; as I follow carbon dioxide concentrations weekly, I doubt they'll be big changes.) I'm not entirely sure that the wind and solar industry can support all the power server and computer time dedicated to saying how great they are.

As is the case with the "green hydrogen" scam, and the almost as bad battery scam, the popularity of which generates far more complacency than energy, energy storage with pumped hydro wastes energy.

A figure from the paper giving some of the carbon costs of pumped storage energy:



The caption:

Figure 3. Life cycle 100-year GWP for the Base Case scenario, disaggregated according to contributions from the primary life cycle phases.


Reliable nuclear energy based on the inefficient Rankine cycle which dominates nuclear power plants around the world, 33% Carnot efficiency approximately depending on the ambient temperatures, is generally rated at a carbon cost of between 5 g CO2/kwh and 25 g CO2/kWh. I have convinced myself that thermochemical processes might raise this efficiency well above 50%, perhaps into the 70% range, particularly if electricity is a side product rather than a main product. Another side product of these system approaches, exploiting the high temperatures accessible for nuclear fuel in use, would be the ability to adjust power output to electrical grids as are well known on a diurnal basis.

Have a pleasant Sunday.
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Shermann

(8,551 posts)
1. Pumped hydro storage can double as regular hydro
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 07:51 AM
Sep 2023

...if there's any substantial rainfall. So that's basically free energy which can offset some efficiency losses.

That said, I do think nuclear is the best house in a bad neighborhood.

NNadir

(34,533 posts)
2. Shutting off the hydroelectric turbines is not "pumped storage."
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 08:00 AM
Sep 2023

Pumped storage involves pumps.

Shutting off the turbines when the grid is oversupplied has been a practice in a de facto sense since the invention of hydroelectricity.

In some sense, hydroelectricity is probably the only sustainable form of so called "renewable energy," although dams, as demonstrated in Libya last week, and the far more disastrous Banqiao event in the 1970's in China, implies potentially huge risks but if I had my way, as a "free river" environmentalist, I'd minimize its use.

Given Banqiao, like some suppressed citizens of China, I question whether Three Gorges was a great idea, particularly in an era of extreme weather.

Think. Again.

(17,324 posts)
3. It's simple...
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 08:09 AM
Sep 2023

...Our energy needs could not be met with nuclear generation alone (those would be some funny looking cars!)

We will need energy storage in some form or another, as we always have.

So we will be using a mix of the available non-CO2 emitting storage technologies no matter how the energy is originally generated.

CoopersDad

(2,812 posts)
4. Helms exists because of Diablo....
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 09:09 AM
Sep 2023

Helms Pumped Storage is able to store surplus off-peak production from Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant, representing a symbiotic relationship between the technologies.

I would love to hear from you about SMRs or other nuclear designs that can address variations in demand without storage, as large reactors like the two at DCPP only have two settings. On and Off.

Happy to support the extension for ops at Diablo, took a tour in July.

NNadir

(34,533 posts)
5. California's grid is dependent on dangerous natural gas. It NEVER stops burning dangerous...
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 09:45 AM
Sep 2023

...gas.

I follow the CAISO data fairly regularly.

Storing energy while burning dangerous natural gas anywhere on the grid is obscene, whether or not a nuclear plant is providing energy to that grid.

Now it is true that in 2022, Diablo Canyon produced more energy on a 12 acre footprint than all the wind turbines in California, spread over more than 1000 square miles, but California has just one nuclear plant left.

With extensive coast line and a problematic water supply, California has the option of utilizing nuclear power, with high efficiency systems involved in process intensification to be one of the best places on the planet to engage in environmental restoration using nuclear energy.

I have written in my journal here a great deal about process intensification using high temperatures, for example, here:

The Energy Required to Supply California's Water with Zero Discharge Supercritical Desalination.

Supercritical water can partially address or completely mitigate many serious environmental issues, most notably municipal and industrial wastes via gasification. Under these circumstances, with heat exchange networks, electricity might prove to be an interesting and useful side product.

Some, but not all of the SMR's proposed can be involved in this sort of thing, at least with materials science issues addressed. (My son is working on his Ph.D in nulear materials.) I am pleased with many of these, but my son complains that in many cases, the materials science behind them has failed to exploit what has been learned since the 1970's.

In theory, supercritical water, might be a second product in a heat network, the first being thermochemical hydrogen for captive use to make fluid fuels, the best of which is DME, dimethyl ether.

I have pushed my son to consider these ideas, since I will not live much longer, and hopefully his generation will be able to clean up the horrible mess my generation has left for them. My son will be in a place to do something about it.

History will not forgive us, nor should it.

CoopersDad

(2,812 posts)
6. How do you feel about thermal storage and flywheel storage, or others?
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 10:10 AM
Sep 2023

BTW, I'm a fan and follower of your work even if we might disagree at times.

I've visited both the old and the new CAISO facility and worked with some of them, balancing our grid is one of the most fascinating things I've learned about this sector.

I've also toured Diable four or five times, most recently this summer, I always learn new things. The turbine deck is magical, but I want to learn more about new, smaller scale, nukes.

I expect that you'll agree that storage is essential in maintaining a safe and reliable grid and permitting flexibility. I completed courses at Stanford that included one in energy storage, XEIET139-021, in 2017. I was surprised to learn later that an in-law's firm had installed flywheel systems on one or more islands in the North Sea.

Assuming storage technologies as various scales are desirable, which do you find most worthy of consideration?

Thanks in advance.

Good luck to your son, we need his generation to unscrew what we've don.

NNadir

(34,533 posts)
7. Thermal storage, which is proposed at the Terrapower nuclear plant to be built in Wyoming...
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 10:47 AM
Sep 2023

...is superior to all other forms of energy storage on purely thermodynamic grounds, since no exergy destruction is involved with energy transformations.

I have no use for flywheel storage, since it requires the conversion of thermal energy to mechanical energy with ultimate losses to friction, even with the best tribological science applied.

In a situation involving exergy recovery of thermal energy now routinely rejected to the environment, one could consider the storage of syngas as a load leveling tool. The hydrogenation of carbon dioxide to give DME and/or methanol is, in fact, exothermic, the exothermic nature of it actually representing a problem for direct DME hydrogenation, since the copper based catalysts can be unstable at high temperatures. Such a system would be similar to compressed air systems without the requirement to heat the gas with dangerous natural gas, as was proposed many years ago by Denholm to address the poor reliability of generally useless wind systems.

Emissions and Energy Efficiency Assessment of Baseload Wind Energy Systems Paul Denholm, Gerald L. Kulcinski, and Tracey Holloway Environmental Science & Technology 2005 39 (6), 1903-1911.

This particular paper sticks in my mind after all these years because it was a milestone in the path that transformed me from a rote supporter of so called "renewable energy" into a generalized opponent of it. The carbon cost of CAES and the requirement for the use of dangerous natural gas appalled me.

Direct conversion of thermal energy to chemical energy has a lot to recommend it, not just for load leveling purposes on a grid, but also for portable energy use. A DME self propelled vehicle to my mind would be cleaner and more sustainable than any of the popular alternatives, including the one I personally own, a hybrid car. In general however, I oppose the car CULTure, but DME could replace all fossil fuels, dangerous natural gas, LPG, dangerous petroleum and dangerous coal, as noted in the seminal paper by the late great "Martian", Nobel Laureate George Olah:

Anthropogenic Chemical Carbon Cycle for a Sustainable Future George A. Olah, G. K. Surya Prakash, and Alain Goeppert Journal of the American Chemical Society 2011 133 (33), 12881-12898

CoopersDad

(2,812 posts)
8. Thanks, I'm interested in learning more about DME
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:13 AM
Sep 2023

And, like you, I'm livid about the car culture and car-centric planning.

Can you recommend reliable sources to learn more, please?

I started here: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/emerging_dme.html

NNadir

(34,533 posts)
9. There is an international DME Association.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:35 AM
Sep 2023
International DME Association

It's pretty much a drop in fuel with few infrastructure changes required, with a high critical temperature making it easy to liquify, easily removed in a spill into water, with which it is miscible, exhibits very mild toxicology - it is something of a mild anesthetic - a short atmospheric half-life and, lacking a carbon-carbon bond, pretty much immune to the formation of particulates.

The idea has been around for quite some time, and is still be explored - Google Scholar shows close to 6,000 publications in 2023 alone - but to my amazement, has not been widely adopted.

The most important potential use, as a diesel fuel, would require a change of seals on existing trucks. Volvo/Mack built some trucks with this capability. Probably if truck manufacturers built new trucks with seals compatible with DME, a transition would be relatively simple.

I'm not sure about the seals on existing dangerous natural gas lines however, but in many places the fuel could be "drop in."

It is, however, an energy storage system, not primary energy, and the degree to which DME is "clean" is connected on whether or not the primary energy is nuclear. It can be, and has been, made by reforming coal or natural gas. In my view, this is unacceptable.
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