Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Caribbeans

(975 posts)
Wed Dec 27, 2023, 09:43 PM Dec 2023

Hydrogen-powered Generators Support Safe Rail Operations While Safeguarding the Environment - Union Pacific Rail



Hydrogen-powered Generators Support Safe Rail Operations While Safeguarding the Environment

UP.com | John Boone | 12.27.2023

Deployment of new hydrogen fuel-cell power generators is helping Union Pacific Railroad ensure continued safe operations while having a positive impact on the environment.

Back-up power generators are used on our system whenever there’s a power outage. A common example is when major weather events occur, such as hurricanes or tornadoes. In these instances, generators power railroad crossing signals and gates to ensure continued safe rail operations. Union Pacific is able to mobilize back-up generators at a moment’s notice to any location on our system where they’re needed.

Historically, these generators have been gas-powered, but last year we began testing units with hydrogen-powered fuel cells as an alternative. Hydrogen is derived by separating H2O into its individual elements – hydrogen and oxygen – via electrolyser technology. This entirely renewable energy supply is one of the only zero-emission fuel sources on the market.

The typical gasoline-powered generators we use output approximately 325 lbs. of CO2 every 24 hours. Hydrogen fuel-cell generators, on the other hand, output 0 lbs. of CO2. Their only emission is water vapor created when the hydrogen recombines with oxygen in the atmosphere. Using hydrogen generators on our system instead of traditional gasoline-powered generators will help Union Pacific reach its science-based target to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 26% by 2030...more
https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/inside_track/hydrogen-powered-generators-it-231227.htm
13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Hydrogen-powered Generators Support Safe Rail Operations While Safeguarding the Environment - Union Pacific Rail (Original Post) Caribbeans Dec 2023 OP
LOL. "Hydrogen fuel-cell generators, on the other hand, output 0 lbs. of CO2." PSPS Dec 2023 #1
Where is the juice coming from to power the TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #2
Maybe one of these Caribbeans Dec 2023 #3
No, neither of those address the power generation TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #6
Way ahead when it comes to coal, too. Progressive dog Dec 2023 #9
So, about that Chinese hydrogen station you enjoy hyping, a question NickB79 Dec 2023 #10
It's all always been a bullshit exercise by fossil fuel salespeople and salesbots to greenwash coal. NNadir Dec 2023 #12
Over time this will change but for now: airplaneman Dec 2023 #4
I hate methane IbogaProject Dec 2023 #5
That isn't what would happen though TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #7
Again fuel cells can use natural gas directly IbogaProject Dec 2023 #8
And again, the same gas is being burned just upstream TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #11
Fuel cells are more efficient and can use Natural Gas directly IbogaProject Dec 2023 #13

PSPS

(14,134 posts)
1. LOL. "Hydrogen fuel-cell generators, on the other hand, output 0 lbs. of CO2."
Wed Dec 27, 2023, 09:48 PM
Dec 2023

Notice how they don't use the word "net." How much CO2 is produced to create the electricity needed for the electrolysis process that crates the "green" hydrogen? That's the rub. If it's a coal or gas plant, the net CO2 output for a given kilowatt can be higher than if gasoline is burned especially if one adds in the CO2 output to transport the hydrogen gas.

TheKentuckian

(26,181 posts)
2. Where is the juice coming from to power the
Wed Dec 27, 2023, 09:52 PM
Dec 2023

electrolyser process?

Hydrogen cells seem to always turn out to be greenwashing.

It isn't very clean or renewable if you have to burn a bunch of coal to power the process and often more than is produced by the cells.

Hiding the greenhouse upstream doesn't help.

Caribbeans

(975 posts)
3. Maybe one of these
Wed Dec 27, 2023, 09:58 PM
Dec 2023


Wait, that's China, who is WAY AHEAD of the US when it comes to hydrogen

https://chinahydrogen.substack.com/

Or maybe Europe

BMW shows potential with hydrogen, but does it have a future? Member countries of EU are building a H2 network of hydrogen fuelling stations every 200 km along busy highways & near all major urban areas. In total, there will be > 600 stations, expected to be completed by the end of 2030.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/reviews/article-bmw-shows-potential-with-hydrogen-but-does-it-have-a-future/

TheKentuckian

(26,181 posts)
6. No, neither of those address the power generation
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 04:38 AM
Dec 2023

to create the process.

The second one made mention of "concern" about not being able to fully capture emissions from natural gas.

Touting China as being ahead is even illuminating the problem, they are almost certainly burning coal and since there is no magic operating the end result is a net loss of usable energy, just with no emissions for the end user. Greenwashing.

Progressive dog

(7,235 posts)
9. Way ahead when it comes to coal, too.
Fri Dec 29, 2023, 02:52 PM
Dec 2023

Burning coal to produce electricity to make green hydrogen. What a win for the climate?

NickB79

(19,621 posts)
10. So, about that Chinese hydrogen station you enjoy hyping, a question
Fri Dec 29, 2023, 07:35 PM
Dec 2023

What happens when they sun sets? I can't seem to find any mention of what they do when the solar farm outside isn't producing power.

Do they have battery banks to carry them through the night?

Does the entire plant just shut down?

Or do they draw coal-fired electricity from China's grid to keep running 24/7?

NNadir

(34,658 posts)
12. It's all always been a bullshit exercise by fossil fuel salespeople and salesbots to greenwash coal.
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 01:47 PM
Dec 2023

That is, at least, my opinion. I kind of regret recusing myself when I was serving on MIRT.

It's very clear, and very well known, with not too much digging, whence hydrogen comes, resulting in exergy destruction of already problematic dangerous fossil fuels.

A Giant Climate Lie: When they're selling hydrogen, what they're really selling is fossil fuels.

The repeated robotic Potemkin videos are part of the greenwash the dangerous coal dependency of hydrogen in China, and the dangerous natural gas dependency of hydrogen elsewhere.

The goal is to sell coal and gas by rebranding them as "green" hydrogen," albeit, again, with exergy destruction and therefore environmental destruction. The pitch is assisted by the commonly held belief in this lie, that hydrogen is somehow magically "green," but the fact is that it takes about 20 EJ of energy, which is overwhelmingly dirty to make 10 EJ of hydrogen, were it used, stupidly and destructively, as a fuel rather than being used as it is overwhelmingly used, as a synthetic tool for industrial products, chiefly ammonia, on which, quite frankly and unavoidably, the world food supply for 8 billion people depends.

Facts matter.

It's kind of slick operation here, and a slick operation elsewhere, just skirting, here, under the DU rules for not engaging in commercial promotions, although what is being promoted is the general fossil fuel industry and not necessarily a specific fossil fuel company; perhaps its funded by a corporate consortium.

The salespeople and the salesbot - which is sometimes managed by a human logging into its account to foil the Turing test - can be recognized by having no other interest in promoting the lie that hydrogen is "green," no personal interests, no political interests, and no serious environmental interests. It's the same damn promotional videos again and again and again, all them, of course, dishonest in nature.

airplaneman

(1,273 posts)
4. Over time this will change but for now:
Wed Dec 27, 2023, 10:19 PM
Dec 2023

The vast majority of hydrogen for energy in the USA, around 95%, is produced through a process called steam-methane reforming. This method involves reacting natural gas (methane, CH4) with high-temperature steam, separating the hydrogen atoms from the carbon atoms. It's currently the most mature and cost-effective way to produce large amounts of hydrogen.

-Airplane

IbogaProject

(3,645 posts)
5. I hate methane
Wed Dec 27, 2023, 11:16 PM
Dec 2023

But it would be best to use existing technology to just consume the methane, aka 'natural gas', in a fuel cell.
From our own government

Fuel Cells Fact Sheet
Fuel cells are the most energy efficient devices for extracting power from fuels. Capable of running on a variety of fuels, including hydrogen, natural gas and other traditional gas and liquid fuels.

Hydrogen might be ok for urban bus and truck routes, but it isn't green unless it's from a renewable source. That is why I think we need to use fuel cells as a stop gap to further push coal and oil in obscurity, while we build our new energy systems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

TheKentuckian

(26,181 posts)
7. That isn't what would happen though
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 04:50 AM
Dec 2023

As you ramp this up, the dependency on existing power generation increases because the juice to put into the cells has to come from somewhere.

All the same emissions are there, they are just less public facing.
The portion we would try to pretend away is found in the lost efficiency between whatever is being burned to power the hydrogen cells and the end user cruising along.

There is no free lunch.

IbogaProject

(3,645 posts)
8. Again fuel cells can use natural gas directly
Thu Dec 28, 2023, 10:59 AM
Dec 2023

That was the point, if the hydrogen is from natural gas maybe just use natural gas or propane with those backup fuel cells directly.

TheKentuckian

(26,181 posts)
11. And again, the same gas is being burned just upstream
Fri Dec 29, 2023, 08:02 PM
Dec 2023

with a loss of efficiency.

It would do less damage to just use NG at the user end.

IbogaProject

(3,645 posts)
13. Fuel cells are more efficient and can use Natural Gas directly
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 05:04 PM
Dec 2023

This Hydrogen from natural gas thing is a big scam. Fuel cells can use Natural Gas directly to make electricity at much greater efficiency than any processing of hydrogen. Again fuel cells aren't just for hydrogen they can use other gaseous fuels.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»Hydrogen-powered Generato...