1. People are entitled to different opinions how to treat animals. You are not entitled to be not offended by their conversation.

2. If deer comes that close to humans, there's a risk it will cause a traffic-accident. Wild animals do not belong with humans.

3. Sometimes a joke is just a joke.

No I'm not entitled to be offended thank you for explaining that.

But I am offended. They know what I believe. What if people snickered and scorned about "stupid Democrats" within earshot of you, knowing that you were one?

'2. If deer comes that close to humans, there's a risk it will cause a traffic-accident. Wild animals do not belong with humans.'

Wrong. The world shouldn't only consist of people, dogs and cats. With increasing human population and loss of habitat for animals, that is exactly what will happen. A doe eating a flower in someone's yard, and your response that deer will cause traffic accidents? Alcoholics cause accidents. Okay to shoot them?

People are entitled to different opinions on how to treat animals? I'm of the opinion that people should go to jail for mistreating animals. Oh, wait!

You can talk to an alcoholic. You cannot talk to a wild animal. The animal does not realize that its habitat is actually an urban area with cars.

What do you think why cities don't like feral dogs running down their streets? Feral cats? Racoons? Rats? Pigeons?
Because they attack people, because they transmit diseases, because they rummage through garbage, because they shit everywhere.

Why do cities not mind squirrels? Because they stay on their fucking trees and out of trouble.

Here's an experiment you can try: Next time a toddler smears yoghurt on your carpet, treat him like you would treat a wild animal and respect his choice to do that.



Look, I'm not trying to be mean or to sound mean, but your stance is so romantic, it's no longer realistic.

'feral dogs running down their streets? Feral cats? Racoons? Rats? Pigeons?
Because they attack people, because they transmit diseases, because they rummage through garbage, because they shit everywhere.'

And when was the last time you were attacked by a 'feral dog, feral cat, raccoon, rat and pigeon?' You are arguing just like many of the people on Fox news do. You get a minor 'truth' that is not a rampant issue, and you are sticking it with a bunch of untruths to drive your point home. If rampant issues based on interactions with wild animals actually existed, you wouldn't have to 'lie' and say "We are being attacked by feral cats, dogs, raccoons and rats".

And on that note, Feral dogs and cats are a problem caused by humans introducing them to an environment that did not have them in the first place. Just like the mouse / rat problems in Australia. We are disproportionately disrupting the natural order of things. Even by our very existence and incredible growing birth rate.

In Los Angeles, thousands of native bird species are extinct due to the 'feral cat' issue that you so readily brought up to defend your issue. Outside of getting a 'shot' at the doctor's office, I don't think there were any deaths due to feral cat attacks.. I could be wrong. But the problems started by human carelessness is far worse than us getting 'attacked by wild animals'.

Seriously. It's not a romantic view at all. It's pragmatic as far as the debate goes. People want to breed pets when we have so many in shelters? Fine them. People want to leave their pets roaming in the streets? Fine them. Heavily. Racoons, possums, rats and birds. Leave them the f! alone. Racoons visit my yard all the time, and I see a few of them show up with missing limbs, limping along. I have gone after people who leave traps that severely dismember these animals. It is their home just as much as ours, if not more so. They were here first.

What do you think why there are no feral dogs roaming our cities? Because we catch them. That's why dog-catchers exist. Ever heard of dog-catchers? Do you think that people chase feral dogs for fun???
What do you think why we don't run into feral cats in our cities? Because we neuter our cats and prevent that they have kittens on their own.
What do you think where racoons have their bad reputation from of rummaging through trash?
What do you think why we lay out rat-poison in our cities? For fun?
What do think why some public buildings are spiked with pointy wires? TOO PREVENT THAT PIGEONS LAND THERE AND SHIT EVERYWHERE. BECAUSE BIRD-SHIT IS CAUSTIC.



And it wasn't humans who introduced wild animals into cities. The wild animals introduce themselves into cities because they do not recognize that this is an artificial environment. They think this is just some weird kind of forest or whatever.

What do you think why bears pillage trash-cans? What do you think how crows learned to pick discarded fast-food from trash-cans? Do you think that humans brought these animals into the city?



And do you think that wild animals are only dangerous by themselves?
Ever heard of tetanus? Ever heard of rabies? Ever heard that foxes are notorious for spreading tapeworms? Ever heard that cats are notorious for spreading the toxoplasmosis-parasite? Here's some advice for free: If you get pregnant, stay away from cats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis



"They were here first."
Will you get equally upset when the invasive species is not homo sapiens but somebody else?
What about the american gray squirrel invading Europe and replacing the european red squirrel? Does that make you angry?
What about racoons wreaking havoc on european biotopes? They are an invasive species. European animals were there first. Should we get rid of all racoons on the european continent?

You are seriously going around in circles.


"What do you think why there are no feral dogs roaming our cities? Because we catch them. That's why dog-catchers exist. Ever heard of dog-catchers? Do you think that people chase feral dogs for fun???"

What does that have to do with my prior argument? LOL.. seriously.
Nice come back.. "Ever heard of dog catchers?" What is your argument??

"What do you think where racoons have their bad reputation from of rummaging through trash?" ... AND?
And why are people told to make sure their trash lids are secure so as not to have critters 'rummaging' through them?

"What do you think why we lay out rat-poison in our cities? For fun?" What the f!ck does that have to do with anything?


"What do think why some public buildings are spiked with pointy wires? TOO PREVENT THAT PIGEONS LAND THERE AND SHIT EVERYWHERE. BECAUSE BIRD-SHIT IS CAUSTIC." Again, what does that have to do with ANYTHING we were discussing.

You're 'kind of' being a jack hole. The end conclusion of my last post was "Seriously. It's not a romantic view at all. It's pragmatic as far as the debate goes." And you're resolving to using all caps and asking me if I've ever heard of a dog catcher?

I made my point. I'm not wasting time with you. Lol. Just wow.

To quote you:
"Wrong. The world shouldn't only consist of people, dogs and cats. With increasing human population and loss of habitat for animals, that is exactly what will happen. A doe eating a flower in someone's yard, and your response that deer will cause traffic accidents? Alcoholics cause accidents. Okay to shoot them? "

It's very simple. Cities are not nature. They are the artificial habitat of an intelligent species that has ENTIRELY different priorities from what animals want. Wild animals threaten these priorities. For example: Not stepping into shit, not being attacked by animals, not having accidents with animals, not getting diseases from animals.

Do you think that cities are animal-free because of some weird quirk? They are animal-free because that's how we want it, that's how we define them, that's how they are "supposed to be".




To quote you:
"And when was the last time you were attacked by a 'feral dog, feral cat, raccoon, rat and pigeon?' ... If rampant issues based on interactions with wild animals actually existed, you wouldn't have to 'lie' and say "We are being attacked by feral cats, dogs, raccoons and rats". "

Rampant issues with wild animals in cities do not exist because we actively prevent such situations. Your stance seems to be that such situations wouldn't happen in general, even if we weren't preventing them.



To quote you:
"And on that note, Feral dogs and cats are a problem caused by humans introducing them to an environment that did not have them in the first place."

Feral dogs (aka wolves) and feral cats have been around forever in the wilderness. The human introduced them as domesticated dogs and domesticated cats into cities. But unsupervised pets go feral again. And that's how you get feral animals in cities. The human did not introduce feral, problematic animals into cities.



To quote you:
"In Los Angeles, thousands of native bird species are extinct due to the 'feral cat' issue that you so readily brought up to defend your issue. Outside of getting a 'shot' at the doctor's office, I don't think there were any deaths due to feral cat attacks.. I could be wrong. But the problems started by human carelessness is far worse than us getting 'attacked by wild animals'. "

I really don't get your point here. Do think that feral cats are a problem because they kill birds or do you think they are not a problem because they do not kill humans???



To quote you:
"Racoons, possums, rats and birds. Leave them the f! alone."

And exactly that is not possible. Cities are our environment, not theirs. They do not belong here. They spread trash and diseases and that's why we CANNOT "leave them the f! alone."

I think the way 'you' think it is 'supposed to be' is wrong.
People in some cities in the U.S. will have run ins with bears.
In these instances, they are asked to keep their trash bins inside their garages, and secure them.
People are told not to interact with them and feed them. They are not asked to 'shoot' them, unless they are in danger.

When I state humans did not introduce wild animals into cities, I am stating what is normally referred to as wild animals
being 'native' species, like yes.. Possums, raccoons, hawks, skunks. Not pigeons, rats, feral cats and dogs that people introduced.

You have an 'us against them' attitude in regards to the animal world. My view is that people have attributed to most of the issues and problems due to 'pigeons' and rats and feral cats and dogs.

I'm not getting anywhere wasting time in a back and forth with you. You're obviously a troll, coming into a 'vegan' segment of a forum, insisting it is okay to shoot a deer who eats someone's magnolias due to the propensity that they'll cause an accident.

Again, I'm done feeding trolls. I'm brand new, and am getting egged on by someone who is in a 'vegan' forum, and states there is absolutely no reason for me to want a deer to remain alive after eating a magnolia, and you devolve into all caps and being disparaging.

Blocked, jackhole.

To be clear, I have nothing against animals. I just think that it's not possible to run a functioning society without keeping animals in check.
Keeping animals out of cities is not my idea: It has been this way for millenia.

I am not a troll:
1. I do enjoy cooking vegan from time to time, simply because it's a challenge to use different ingredients. I share the environmental/health-arguments for cooking vegan. I just don't share the moral arguments for cooking vegan.
2. The vegan forum on DU does not have a "safe-space" rule. I just checked. Some other forums do, like the Socialists and the Atheists, but the Vegans do not have such a protected status here on DU.



And finally: I never said I would want that deer dead. I said I want wild animals out of the city. That's not the same.
And maybe the people who were quoted in the OP didn't mean it either. Sometimes a joke is just a joke.

People often say they wish they could be vegan and go out of their way to bring something vegan to a potluck. Stuff like that. But, occasionally someone will make a stupid joke about forcing me to eat meat. Ha Ha that's funny.

HAHAHA HERES A SLAP TO THE FACE LOLOLOL

Speech is aimed at you specifically , then it becomes harassment and work place disruption.

Animals are getting driven out of their territory at a staggering rate. In my small town they took about 3 acres of heavy woods , some of the last left , and are busy tearing it down to build crap for humans. I've lived here 43 years and deer always congregated there.
I am not vegan but see no need to criticize one.

People are entitled to their own beliefs but to deliberately(?) mock someone with different beliefs within earshot is unkind. It says more about them that it does about you.

And that's why I don't openly speak about how hairtrigger numbnuts are so stupid for wanting to kill Bambi simply because it's grazing on landscaping.

Because they can be what they want to be and I won't tell them they're wrong or otherwise.

But it's okay for me to believe they're wrong.

You have to accept the Trumpers around you are just teasing you, or doing their good ol' boy posturing. Please try to laugh it off or tease back, like with stories about the deer that shot the hunter. You know, 'support your right to arm bears.' If you are going to make it long term around such folks, a combination of armor and humor is essential. Trust me, active duty Army here.

I usually ask them why they think it's okay to eat meat. Then, after the inevitable 'because we can' logic rises, I edge closer to them and ask the kicker -- 'So if I can dominate you, I can eat you? Hmmmm.'

But I'm a large male. It works. They shut up.

Sometimes I suggest that cruel and insensitive people are the tastiest treat, but I'm trying to stop. Too much bile.

What's the reason we don't eat other humans again? Can't think of it. Because the logic doesn't hold.

That makes you a bully.

I'm also a large male. Have been all my life. My father was a large male, who taught me not to be a bully. I owe him a great debt.

Seems fair.

Last edited Sat Jun 3, 2017, 06:29 AM - Edit history (1)

I grew up on a farm where my parents had our pet calves slaughtered when they reached a certain age. It killed my soul as a young child. When I reproached my mother, she gave me the old "that's what God put them here for" shit.

I'm an old atheist now.

Friend of main called Ziggy used to say regarding the guy who cuts you off in traffic. "He didn't piss you off, he just drove his car in a certain manner. The anger comes from within you. To deal with that anger, you don't need to deal with him, you need to deal with yourself."

You believe certain things about how you should eat. That's your business. Other people might not agree. That's their business. You express your beliefs, they express theirs.

Your expression of your beliefs does not piss them off, why should their expression of their beliefs piss you off? Because they didn't say it politely? That's their bad, not yours. Because you disagree with them? If so, then your beliefs should piss them off.

Something is going on within you that is causing the anger. That's what you need to look at.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong and continue to blame others for your anger. Most people do. A few people hear what I'm saying. Those people usually let go of their anger and live happier lives.

But does that mean I should never BE offended? And if so, are people allowed to be rude because people just shouldn't be offended?

Or is it that, they're in the wrong for being rude but I'm also in the wrong for being offended?

As I said, very few people get the point of what I'm saying. Who cares who's wrong? Right, wrong, neither of the above. What difference does it make? What good does it do me to be right if I feel like shit?

Does being offended feel good? Then go for it. Personally, it doesn't feel good when I do it. It discolors my life. It raises my blood pressure. It makes me unhappy.

And you know what? The person who offended me doesn't care. In fact, he probably enjoys it. that's why he said the things he said the way he said them. To ruin my day.

I usually decide I'm not going to let him and I have some tools, meditation and some spiritual strengths, that work inside me to make sure that what someone else says or does does not create turmoil inside me.

My choice. You have the same choice.

yes, people have a right to be rude. Maybe because I've lived in NY for over ten years I now feel that way.

You have a right to choose how you feel about what they say. I remember a black preacher who came to our frat house in Seattle (we were pretty progressive for that kind of organization in 1974) to say something that stuck with me ever since:

"Nobody can make you feel bad without your permission."

Okay but why are you here, posting on DU, complaining about anything?

There are expectations of manners in any society.

Peace.

What part of my post was complaint? As I said, very few people get what I'm talking about.

I have no expectations of manners in anyone. I don't expect anyone to behave or speak in any manner and my post never suggested I did or do. My post was about not allowing the manner in which other people behave to disrupt my life.

I know you were only trying to help him.

However, you know that developing such a Zen attitude takes tools, time, and psychic energy to achieve and maintain. We are not taught or given these tools but must seek them.

We cannot tell others that they should blah blah, whatever. They need deep insights in order to do so. So, in the meantime we should not make anyone feel guilty** about whatever avenues they can find to maintain their sanity.


**Yes, yes, damn it, I know we cannot make anyone feel anything. They subconsciously do that to themselves. However, until folks can learn the necessary tools, we need to get off that preachy high-horse.

Right now, my tool is just a tiny nip of a tequila sunrise.

Meat eaters are likely more agressive and angry because their life relies on death.
there is nothing "going on within" the poster. As a human you can be offended simply because people are inconsiderate and rude.

They intend to hurt others.

'Freedom'. Why would their freedom offend you? It's all your problem.

You're just so much better than. I'll stick with visceral expulsion in the face of murderous primitives, thanks.

A wise old woman I know used to say it this way: "In life, people throw a lot of things at you. It's your decision which of those things you catch. But know that if they throw something at you and you DO catch it, now it belongs to you."

A young woman in an all male section. NY is HUGE on hunting. They knew I hated hunting. I listened to the daily stories of the day's before kill. It was normal conversation for them. After they learned I hated hunted hunting, they made more of an effort for me to hear it. They were fucking with me. But in a nice way. They wanted to get a rise out of me, and they failed. See how far they could take it. Testing to see if I could take a joke.

I started a tally on my desk (lil bulletin board) of deer killed vs hunters killed (because they always end up shooting each other). Never said a word, just updated my little board with every news story. one column deer, one column hunters...used push pins. By the end of that year (a particularly bad one for hunters), the deer were winning.

They stopped fucking me with after that lol. All nice guys, and we all got along. Most were civilians in my office. Now the sexual harassment I dealt with from my fellow military members was another thing altogether, and that never ended. But I learned to handle that too.

As jayhawk above has stated, you gotta learn to deal with this kind of crap. Don't excuse it, but don't take it to heart. Let it slide right off your back. It ain't about you, truly.

Your advice is spot on.

What was that Eleanor Roosevelt quote? "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Same kind of thing and very, very true.

Thank you. -The Management

I was wondering if anyone was going to say anything, I was starting to think that rules didn't apply here or something.

I was like, isn't this a safe group? Why are people lecturing me on whether or not I should be upset about people shooting baby deer for eating flowers? Lol

I'm not around much because my dad's had a medical emergency and my hands are full. flvegan has enough work that he barely has time to breathe. Not sure the details but I know willparkinson has been busy and isn't around as much as normal.

Please PM me if something comes up around here and I'll deal with it. Generally this group is pretty well behaved but sometimes threads show up on the "latest threads" listing and get responses from people who-
how can I put this charitably?- don't seem to be aware of the nature of the group.

Well hey, if there are ever any vacancies for hosts in this group, I wouldn't mind being apart of it.

I'm sorry about your dad's med emergency, I hope things are on the upswing?

He's improving. In December he looked to be days away from dying, in January he was released from the hospital but was wheelchair bound and barely able to self feed. Now he's up walking without a cane and managing all of his own daily tasks except that I dispense his medication. He's a few months out yet from getting to the top of the liver transplant list (and we're in the worst part of the country to be waiting, and he has the worst possible blood type, so he's had the longest wait theoretically possible in the US,) so he's doing remarkably well all things considered.

I was thinking I should check with the other hosts about adding a few more hosts. At one point there were five or six but we've lost a few because people left DU over the years (and one prior host left and came back, I should ask her if she wants host status down here again.) It's a pretty chill group, really months pass without it needing anything said.

Seems similar to my FIL, he's stricken with several ailments including MS and was supposed to be fully disabled years ago and dead after that. He's the strongest man I know as he still does his chores as best he can and though unemployed, takes care of his family.

Your father sounds strong as well.