In what is really a rerun of our own conflict with Gilad Atzmon in Britain, JVP explain that ‘We know full well that the Israel lobby uses false and misleading accusations of anti-Semitism to silence critics of Israeli policies. We have called out that tactic time and time again and stood in defense of those who have been wrongly maligned with this accusation. Nevertheless, this does not mean that all accusations of anti-Semitism are unfair.’

Alison Weir’s defence is basically that she will speak on any platform, including that of white supremacists. It is suggested that it is McCarthyist ‘guilt by association’ to tar her with the same brush. However if you lie down with a dog you will end up with fleas as the old saying goes. To associate with those who believe in white supremacy and anti-Semitism in the name of fighting Zionist racism makes no sense and can only be counter-productive. Alison Weir may indeed be dedicated to Palestinian rights (unlike Gilad Atzmon), she may even be sincere, but as long as she associates with virulent racists she is damaging the cause of Palestine.

An Open Letter in support of Alison Weir has also made an appearance. Included on it are some of the same signatures that signed a similar letter from Atzmon and Mary Rizzo attacking me some years ago. These include: Richard Falk, Mazin Qumsiyeh, Samir Abed-Rabbo, James Petras, David Rovics, Geoff Blankfort and Paul Eisen of Deir Yassin Remembered, whose Holocaust Wars was an open defence of the neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel, who was imprisoned in Germany for holocaust denial.

Jewish Voices for Peace is a very valuable organisation. It has opened up a chink in the hegemonic support of the American Jewish community for Zionism and Israel. It has over 40 chapters and has mustered over 100,000 signatures for a petition. It has steadily moved to an anti-Zionist position and it endorses BDS. If JVP feels the need to dissociate itself from Alison Weir, no sincere supporter of Palestine solidarity should have second thoughts about supporting them.

If anyone needed any convincing, then the article by Gilad Atzmon in support of Alison Weir ‘The Protocols Of The EldersOf ‘Anti’ Zion: JVP vs. Alison Weir’ should convince them.

Tony Greenstein

But really folks, Mondoweiss isn't a hate site. Not at all. Nothing to see here!



Of course, I expect to see many more Mondoweiss articles posted here despite the fact it's a hate site.

if you want to know someone, check out who they associate with. That edict has always done well for me.

Weir and IAK definitely don't pass the smell test. Is Weir an anti-Semite then? Well, there are no indications that she isn't, which is quite significant for someone who has written extensively on the IP conflict.

But what's Gilad Atzmon got to do with this? Why would he be an anti-Semite?

Last edited Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:34 PM - Edit history (1)

You probably question whether a Jew can actually be an antisemite. Well yeah, Jews can definitely be antisemites. They're antisemites if they endorse, defend, and advocate the same things non-Jewish antisemites spew.

Here's an article with links to some of Atzmon's degeneracy...
http://hurryupharry.org/2015/01/04/galloway-and-the-david-duke-fan/

He seems to be completely unable to say anything that's not completely inappropriate, but that doesn't make him an anti-Semite.

I had a peek at the IAK website, though, and it's just crap. Perhaps delusional is too strong for describing the views promoted there, but it's detached from reality and very one-sided. I can easily see how the demonization of an imaginary enemy can translate into anti-Semitism in the real world. While it sort of looks unintentional, they probably just don't care that their zealotry has descended into anti-Semitism. That's no excuse however, as they hate Jews just as much as any other anti-Semites.

....as to what constitutes anti-semitism, and therefore you can't possibly be taken seriously on anything related to Israel.

Here's Atzmon denying the holocaust, as well as praising and distributing the work of holocaust deniers:
http://ukmediawatch.org/2015/03/10/a-brief-intro-to-gilad-atzmons-holocaust-denial-aka-george-galloways-pillow-talk/

At the end of that article, you'll see Atzmon arguing that the holocaust was a response to the Jews' declaration of war against Germany.

===============

Here's the ADL on Atzmon:

You still wanna claim there's nothing to see here? That this is legit criticism?

http://archive.adl.org/main_anti_semitism_international/gilad-atzmon-anti-semite.html#.VbIw-RNViko

Anti-Semitism

Many of Atzmon's writings are infected with blatant anti-Semitism. He legitimizes anti-Semitic rhetoric (and even crimes) as rational responses to Zionism

In an August 2009 article about an attack on a gay center in Tel Aviv, Atzmon alleged that democracy and tolerance are "foreign to the spirit of Jewishness." He also explained the attack as emblematic of the Israelis' "murderous lethal tactics" and charged that "the Jewish state…is one of the least tolerant places on this planet. It is fuelled by hatred towards others and Otherness."

During an address at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London in 2005, Atzmon went so far as to legitimize hate crimes against Jews, saying, "I'm not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act."

Atzmon authored an article titled "On Anti-Semitism" in 2003 that remains his most virulently anti-Semitic piece to date. In the article, Atzmon alleged that "Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus" and that Jewish outrage in response to the deicide charge only served to further prove their accountability. He also argued that anti-Semitic acts and attitudes are "political responses" to Zionism and cannot be interpreted as racially motivated or irrational incidents of anti-Semitism.

In the article, he posits that Israel benefits from anti-Semitism because it engenders global support for Israel and that Israel therefore engages in behavior toward Palestinians that will spur anti-Semitic reactions, a phenomenon he calls "the Zionist perpetuum mobile."

....that his criticism is legitimate & therefore not hateful?

Atzmon is a tough cookie with a potty mouth. But an anti-Semite? Nah...

We'll just have to disagree on that.

Here are parts of it, once again:

Jew hate? Yes or No?



Jew hate? Yes or No?



Jew hate? Yes or No?

Not just here in I/P, but all of DU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

been and that's really saying something on the I/P board at DU. Holocaust denial not being anti-semetic. Now I've heard it all. Fucking pathetic.

...by 31 liberal democracatic countries.

This entire thread shows exactly why such a definition is needed.

What other conclusion can there be?

this vile person is an anti-semite? Because less than a half hour ago your response was "nah".

Thinking burning down a synagogue (not in Israel but everywhere) is fine, denying the holocaust is fine, defending holocaust deniers is fine. But you don't consider this vile piece of shit an anti-semite. Well, I just lost every ounce of respect I ever had for you.

and someone who praises the work of holocaust deniers is an anti-semite? Seriously?

That anti-semitic acts are just political responses to Zionism.



Nothing to see here! Atzmon legitimately criticizes Israel. Deal with it you fascist Zionist racists!

is an embarrassment to thinking people. I simply cannot believe that poster is making excuses for this piece of crap bigot. Disgusting.

Atzmon is playing with inflammatory statements just as well as he plays the sax - which is very well. Unfortunately, he knows what he's doing, and his primary goal in life seems to be to piss people off. I simply can't pin him down as an anti-Semite.

And after all that you can't call him an anti-semite. What the fuck would it take? Are you so invested in all the Palestinians supporters you can't even admit what is obvious? He denies the holocaust and praises the work of others that deny the holocaust? Why are you turning yourself into a pretzel defending that? I think that's pretty fucking pathetic.

He's certainly a special case, and we differ on whether someone can say the damndest things about Jews and the holocaust and still not be an anti-Semite.

I don't feel that my views on anti-Semitism are very controversial in general - it's basically just this one guy that's the problem.

You think this is the only person that is a holocaust denier? It's obvious have zero idea what you're talking about and I believe I'll call this piece of crap who denies that I lost 80 in my family to those nazi animals anything I damn well please. We're done here.

...isn't an antisemite. That's unreal.

Presumably, if Alison Weir said the same thing, then she couldn't be labeled an antisemite either? Yes or No?

Perhaps if you were less inclined to support the use of anti-Semitism for political purposes, I would give your arguments more credit. But the way things stand, I think you're hopelessly lost in a mire of bias.

As for Weir, she just doesn't have the ability to pull it off.

.....for political purposes.

I'm wondering what it would take for you to conclude Atzmon is an antisemite? What do you need to see?

Because once you see that he fits your criteria, I want you take back that insulting accusation.

Deal?

IMO, it's far worse to minimize, ignore, explain-away, or deny clear anti-semitism due to political leanings than what you're asserting. In a way I agree with you, as I believe false accusations of antisemitism are not only wrong but very harmful to Jewish interests.

I accused you of the support of the use of anti-Semitism for political purposes, not you actually using it. That's a big difference, supporting something isn't actually doing it.

When it comes to Atzmon, I can unfortunately see what he's doing, and all his statements are designed to be racist and OTT in the eyes of their beholders, while actually not crossing any lines real lines. I grew up reading comics like "Illustrated Stories From The Bible " by Paul Farrell, Ed the happy clown by Chester Brown, and of course anything by Robert Crumb. For me, Atzmon is very similar to these, but without the illustrations, and also without being funny.

...in your opinion.

You didn't have any problem tagging Weir with that label. What did Weir say that clinched it for you?

Everything Weir says is probably anti-Semitic because she's an anti-Semite. However, nothing that Atzmon says makes him an anti-Semite if he isn't.

Weir is easy, she's pushing an agenda that's awfully one-sided and full of holes, and she fails to understand that her demonization of her enemy exactly translates into anti-Semitism if brought into the real world.


So it was all about that stale, but familiar smell...

So how do you know for sure?



This describes a lot of antizionists. How do you distinguish between the good and the rotten ones?

Once again, what exactly would you need to see from Atzmon that would lead to you to conclude he's a Jew hating POS?

In my experience, a racist can't hide behind other issues - the true target becomes evident eventually.

....in particular that would lead you to believe someone is an antisemite: just a gut reaction.

Is that right?

The problem is that it's very complex to argue for someones true motivations when they're not readily apparent. It's all about inductive arguments, more or less cogent, and then trying to fit it into a deductive conclusion.

In a way, this is little bit of a standoff, as there are statements that clearly shows that a person is a racist, there are statements that indicate that a person may be / probably is a racist, and finally there are statement that don't indicate anything.

When it comes to anti-Semitism, which I see as a subgroup of racism, I think we agree that there are these three types of statements, but we fundamentally disagree on which kind of statements constitute these groups.

We also seem to disagree on what anti-Semitism is on very fundamental level, as for me anti-Semitism isn't actually what I'm against - I'm against racism, and my views on anti-Semitism are actually my views on racism. And then we also disagree on whether attacks on things suposedly connected to Jews, like Zionism and Israel, if those attacks would be anti-Semitic.

All in all, I would say that you let your bias lead you a little bit too much, so that you think that those who criticize Israel and Zionism are somehow driven by anti-Semitism when they actually aren't.

In this case, antisemite.

Thanks.

....being a Holocaust Denier, rationalizing the firebombing of synagogues, etc.

This thread was from before I knew about Atzmon supporting the anti-Semitic arguments of his anti-Semite buddies and I've changed my opinion accordingly.

Are you now saying each and every example throughout this thread demonstrates Atzmon's antisemitism?

Or are you still unconvinced?

I can see you're uneasy about these particular examples & that's all I really need to see. You can't and won't defend them, but will you acknowledge each one is antisemitic? I'm not sure you will, knowing what that means for the antisemitic Palestinian cause.

This thread was from before I knew about Atzmon supporting the anti-Semitic arguments of his anti-Semite buddies and I've changed my opinion accordingly.

Take out the fact that Atzmon supports Holocaust denying antisemites. I just wonder why none of the other examples clued you in on his antisemitism: eg. Jews as Christ-Killers, Atzmon's own Holocaust Denial, burning down a synagogue, democracy/tolerance foreign to "Jewishness", Jews trying to control the world, questioning whether Jews really did use the blood of christian children to bake matzos, etc.

Am I correct to assume that these examples are not racist/antisemitic in your view?

Both attack ideas, not people. Both of them draw grandiose conclusions from evidence that doesn't really support that kind of inference. And both use strong language that's intended to annoy people.

I'm not really interested in discussing Atzmon - it would be much better if you had a discussion about him with someone who actually appreciated him.

The Antichrist (book)
Source: Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Antichrist_(book)

BTW, posting an identical post twice was unintentional.

1. Claim Jews as a collective are Christ-Killers
2. Claim that burning down a synagogue is rational
3. Democracy/tolerance foreign to "Jewishness"
4. Jews trying to control the world...
5. Questioning whether Jews really did use the blood of christian children to bake matzos

These are centuries old tropes that Jew haters use to attack Jews.

=============

Forget Atzmon, the vast majority of Jews and liberals (not leftists) would agree that those 5 examples are overwhelming evidence that a person who maintains those views is antisemitic.

Now you believe that if someone holds to those 5 views, it proves nothing. Correct? You would need more convincing?

But I've found no evidence of that. Hypotheticals aren't inherently anti-Semitic even if they contain anti-Semitic imagery.

I'm going to drop this subject, because I'm losing interest. Sorry.

Who cares whether he made them or not. Assume he didn't and someone else did. You'd agree that's proof the person is an antisemite? Just to be clear.

----------------

We're discussing actual examples of antisemitism and you want to run away.

Typical.

This thread was from before another poster showed me that Atzmon was endorsing the anti-Semitic views of anti-Semites. I do change my opinion about things if the proof is overwhelming...

However, I maintain that Atzmon hasn't written anything anti-Semitic. His "The Wandering Who?" is provoking, but not anti-Semitic. I have no real interest in explaining how this can be, and unless you manage to bring up an angle I haven't seen yet, I won't reply.

....of antisemitism just adopted by all western democratic nations. And of course, according to probably 99% of all Jews.

That makes his writing antisemitic.

Case closed.

That's Alison Weir's sewer.

Post # 7:



Post #4:

When it comes to actual anti-Semitism, I'm always and totally against.

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/roundtable-palestinian-solidarity

Tells you all one needs to know about Mondoweiss.

Along with many other "human rights" advocates.

Voices for peace? No, racist Jew hating gutter antisemites, holocaust deniers....