Sounds reasonable but Israel has all the cards........and facts on the ground.

More reasonable would be to start with Israel's 1948 Armistice lines and negotiate from there.

That the two sides must be equal somehow, your not the first person to bring it up but it's a really odd idea IMO. The Israelis deserve their superior negotiating position, they earned it, the Palestinians not so much, because you don't build first world street cred by hijacking airplanes, murdering athletes, blowing up buses and slitting kids throats.

when you start wars and lose - you lose the high ground and any hope of an equal position. The Palestinians are in this mess because of their own actions and those of their leaders. They should have taken the state offered to them in 1948. Losers who start wars don't get infinite do-overs.

Bear in mind that agreement was signed by Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria.

Seems more logical to begin with the borders that were established between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan when peace treaties were signed between those countries in in 1979 and 1994.

I am just pointing out that in 1949, the West Bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza was occupied by Egypt.

.......I wasnt born yesterday

The Green Line or (pre-)1967 borders or 1949 Armistice borders refers to the demarcation lines set out in the 1949 Armistice Agreements between the armies of Israel and those of its neighbors (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria) after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.

Green Line (Israel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)

Aims of Gush Shalom

Putting an end to the occupation,

Accepting the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent and sovereign State of Palestine in all the territories occupied by Israel in 1967[*],

Reinstating the pre-1967 "Green Line" as the border between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine (with possible minor exchanges of territories agreed between the parties); the border will be open for the free movement of people and goods, subject to mutual agreement.

Establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the two states, with East Jerusalem (including the Haram al-Sharif) serving as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel. The city is to be united on the physical and municipal level, based on mutual agreement.

Recognizing in principle the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees, allowing each refugee to choose freely between compensation and repatriation to Palestine and Israel, and fixing by mutual agreement the number of refugees who will be able to return to Israel in annual quotas, without undermining the foundations of Israel.

Safeguarding the security of both Israel and Palestine by mutual agreement and guarantees.
Striving for overall peace between Israel and all Arab countries and the creation of a regional union.

[*] This refers specifically to all the parts of former Mandatory Palestine occupied by the Israeli army in 1967 - not to parts of Syria or Egypt.

Source: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/

Previous negotiations have largely consisted of the US and Israel holding hands while trying to wring concessions out of the Palestinian side. This approach hasn't led to a two-state solution nor peace.

Perhaps it's time to find out what the minimum requirements are for a Palestinian state and if it's acceptable or even doable for both sides. I think the French peace push can at least do that, in spite of Netanyahu's intrepid resistance.

When have the Palestinians been asked to give up anything? Not even once. It's ALWAYS Israel that's asked to give concessions. All that's ever been asked of the Palestinians is to give up violence - and they can't manage to even do that. They just want continuous do-overs so they can get what they were offered in 1948 until they can figure out how to destroy Israel. I wouldn't trust the French either if I were in Israeli shoes.

Answer : ......

A Flash Presentation of Barak's "Generous Offers"

This will help you know the facts and thereby break the Myth.

Attached files:
• Click here to watch
Flash file, 38.1 KB

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/downloads/baraks_offers/barak_eng.swf

will over the weekend. I'm sure I'll find they've been asked to do nothing other than not kill people.

of the (imaginary) things the Palestinians have been asked to give up.

impressed with being asked to give up land they LOST in a war they started. I've made my position on that VERY clear. I still remember what happened with Gaza - the Israeli's forced their own to abandon their homes and what did they get in return? Violence, rockets, more terrorism.

...." VERY clear. " .

I remember too .......although I would not use the term " their own " .

ref : http://www.counterpunch.org/2005/07/09/the-war-of-the-colors-in-israel/

the IDF removed them from Gaza as a show of good will. And what did they get for it? Violence, rockets, terrorism. And you think the terrorists should be rewarded for that. Not me. It's time for them to remember that losers don't get to set terms.

They got nothing but abuse , insults and violence leftynyc.....almost came to a civil war , not for the first time ....first time was when they assassinated Rabin .

They are still at it BTW :

ref : http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4797940,00.html

(probably unwittingly) - it shows the government is not afraid to do something unpopular to further some hope of a peaceful resolution to the I/P issue. The Palestinian leadership has never done anything remotely similar. They've never offered ANYTHING.

....its a pro settler government ....led by Bibi who voted against Sharon .

Does that negate what happened in Gaza? Perhaps that's how a pro settler government got elected in the first place. They pulled their own out and got NOTHING in return but violence. If they hadn't continued with the violence, bibi would never have gotten elected.

Quote what I was replying to :

" it shows the government is not afraid to do something unpopular to further some hope of a peaceful resolution to the I/P issue. "

This government is not interested in doing anything " to further some hope of a peaceful resolution to the I/P issue. " ...........nada , zilch.

I suggest you read up on the creation of the Kadima party.

see : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadima

You still haven't addressed my post. Israel has ALREADY shown a willingness to do the unpopular, like pulling their own out of Gaza and as you pointed out, that was VERY unpopular, and they got nothing but violence in return. Why should they do anything else? When are the Palestinians going to do ANYTHING that proves they want peace? When is anyone like yourself going to even ask them to?

..........they should not have been there in the first place leftynyc.

They should not be in the Wild West Bank either .....
Pull them out ...or pull out the army ....then you will see .

Orit Strock and Ayelet Shaked are not my sister leftynyc.......and Yigal Amir is not my brother .

ref : http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134127876

They didn't have Gaza or the West Bank until 1967 (which, let's remember, they got because of a war Israel won - and let's also remember, it was occupied at the time by Jordan and Egypt) Did that bring peace? Why are you pretending that at any time in the last 70 years that the Palestinians have done anything...ANYTHING....to prove they want peace? You want Israel to forget all the violence, forget all the history and give them what they went to war over in 1947. The Palestinians and their pals keep attacking, keep financing terrorism and you think Israel should ignore all that. Even worse, you want them to reward it.

.....perhaps you dont want that leftynyc.......but its the only way it will be possible .

Or the alternative is a One State Solution ....annexation ....which is exactly what Orit Strock and Ayelet Shaked and Yigal Amir and this government want .

That's fascinating.

And you wonder why no one sane buys into idiotic Hamasbara.

How's about the Palestinians demonstrate they want peace, are held to it, and THEN there are 2 states?

Why are you against peace first?

It's the only answer. All I'm asking is that you (and others) not pretend there is only one side who is the victim here. And to not forget history - or ask the Israelis to forget. Right wing governments get elected when people are afraid - we've seen it right here in the US and are seeing it in Europe now. Bibi got elected because people saw what happened in Gaza. Violence, rockets and the election of a terrorist organization.

The way I see it, it's about two peoples in one ancestral homeland, and there's no reason for not sharing it equally. Currently, it seems as if Israel wants more than half, and I can't see how that can be defined as Israeli concessions.

You seem to be one of the 53% of Democratic supporters who sympathize with Israel over the Palestinians. How do you justify Israel deserving a better deal in a partition of Israel and Palestine?

Israel took what was offered to them in 1948 - ever since then the Palestinians and their pals in the neighboring countries have tried to destroy Israel several times. Each time, they lost. You don't get to continually start wars, lose them and then expect to get back what was offered in the past. The losers don't get to negotiate terms and continual do-overs are ridiculous and Israel is under zero obligations to keep turning their other cheek. The Palestinians fucked up - over and over and over again. I see no reason to reward that.

They "flooded" the area that Jews have been living in for thousands of years because Europe tried to kill them all (perhaps you've heard of WWII - it was in all the papers). Got a problem with Israel being a country? Take up your whining with the British and the UN - Israel didn't TAKE anything.

and my family has LIVED that history. Never more than 15% minority? What pathetic textbooks are you getting this crap from? And why do you have such a problem calling it ISRAEL and it's inhabitants ISRAELI? That really tells me all I need to know about your version of history.

Thank you for your authoritative dismissal of my claim ........Obviously having lived in the 1920s, you and your family will know the true facts. It is a pity you couldn't bring yourself to say how big you THINK the Jewish minority in Palestine was.

If you look up ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine ) you will see a breakdown of the Jews in Palestine as follows:

Year..... Jews..................Total inhabitants................% Jews
1800.... 7,000................275.000............................2.5%
1890....43,000................532,000............................8.0%
1914....94,000................689,000............................13.6%
1922....84,000................752,000............................11.2%


Now, do tell us where YOU get your fantasy facts from?...........Hearsay?

It matters not at all.

What matters is who is living where at this moment.

Are you advocating relocation and ethnic cleansing of Jews from the land now because of some fantasy that you think happened for centuries? WTF cares

And people wonder why it's so important for Jews to have a very strong army and defense force.

Laughing at someone like you defending these Jew hating bigots , that have been expelled from the labor party ,in this thread.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134127592

Don't make me laugh....You wouldn't have a clue about democratic rights, free-speech or justice....You are only interested in one thing......Excusing the inexcusable!



Anyone with the same ideas of justice as ethnic cleansers needs to be very careful about accusing anyone of being a "Jew hating bigot".

Pretty borderline stuff.
Doesn't deserve a dignified answer.

Isn't it?

I still remember one of our last conversations, when I asked you what you would have done had you been in charge and able to decide back in the 1930's-40's whether to accept Jews in to Palestine.

You said you'd have sent Jews back to the gas chambers rather than admit them into Palestine. Just like other world leaders.

Have you changed your mind since?

Talking nonsense and fabricating conversations are typical symptoms of Alzheimer's.


I expect it was the early signs of the disease (illogicality and a persecution complex) that caused me to give up trying to debate with you. Sadly, I never did get you to explain why you thought I was a Turk.


I suggest you seek medical assistance urgently.

You didn't want to discuss that because it would expose your double-standard on occupied territory.

I also understand why you'd rather deflect than discuss your position on sending Jews back to the ovens had you been in charge of Jewish immigration into Palestine during the WW2 days.

The point being, you're in no position to preach morals to the Jews.

As I am not in Nicosia and not a Turk ........I have no idea what you are talking about. You really are delusional.

For the record, I object to ANY people indefinitely occupying the territory of another people whether they be Jews, Chinese, Russians or Turks.

Our discussions still exist from 2009, but you don't know what I'm talking about.

Please.

No one would place Nicosia as their hometown/country if they were just there a few hours.

What a bunch of bullshit.

Bookmarking.

I said that I had never been in Nicosia for more than a few hours...If you chose not to believe me that is your affair.........

What puzzles me is why my nationality and hometown are such big deals for you......

You're busted, and your excuse is beyond pathetic. It's moronic. You should be ashamed.

Some advice ............ignore her like I do .

I assumed you were Turkish, so bad on me.
I believe you now when you say you don't live there anymore.

Fair enough?

So why deny you ever lived there?

The point is that the Jewish state is here to stay.
Jews are now strong and we will not be displaced - that's what's changed - we fight back now.

The Jewish state ain't going anywhere.
Hard to swallow eh ?

Nearly half of Israeli Jews believe in ethnic cleansing, survey finds:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/almost-half-of-israeli-jews-want-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html

No other people in the world are obsessed about as much as the Jews.
No other country other than the Jewish state is obsessed about by so many other people's.
So many obsessed will find any survey about anything, especially if it's negative.

All kinds of bigotry... Antisemitism is especially of interest to me ...Being Jewish I see it all over , on the Left and Right , especially in Europe- ( not so much in the USA but you see it here on DU in plenty )

• The UN partition plan (UNGA 181) is non-binding, a suggestion to the interested parties.

• The UN has always lacked any authority to divide or unite territory.

• Great Britain too lacked such authority; as with India, it would have needed a referendum and a plurality in favor of partition. That never happened (and we can guess it would have failed if it had happened)

So, absent a negotiated, democratic partition of the territory, how does Israel gain territory? Well... exactly in the way it did, through armed force.

I think a just solution that doesn't discriminate against the civilians of either side and takes their rights into account is preferable. I'm a real softie, and I actually believe in human rights and democracy and stuff.

care about human rights is simply adorable. You don't think there should be any consequences for the war in 1948 and those that came after and I couldn't disagree more strongly with that. You want to give the Palestinians continual do-overs and reward those who waged war rather than accept their own state. I think that's madness that rewards terrorists.

Last edited Mon May 2, 2016, 04:37 PM - Edit history (2)

But you don't think that's fair.

How adorable.

This isn't about human rights and occupation to you. It's about borders. Percentage of land is more important to you than human righta and occupation. Now explain how I'm wrong about you.

isn't really important.

I have little concern for what country a certain geographical area belongs to, but I do care about the people living there. The people living in any area that's partitioned should be allowed to live there, or if they've left, they should be allowed to return. This right should be bestowed to their descendants as well.

This is a principle that I think is valid at all times, and should be applied to people from Kosovo, Cyprus, Syria (all of Syria including the Golan Heights), Palestine or any other area. Redrawing a map should never mean that people have to leave or not be able to return.

be given to the hundreds of thousands of Jews that were ACTUALLY thrown out of their countries when Israel was declared a state? They obviously aren't going to go back to Egypt, Iraq, Iran, etc.....so what should they be looking forward to receiving?

shouldn't be denied that right.

It's also quite possible that the state of war between Israel and most Arab nations won't last forever. Regardless, their stolen property should be restored, of course. It doesn't matter how long ago it was stolen, it still belongs to those it was stolen from.

....hundreds of thousands dead, that's okay so long as your version of justice happens.

That's human rights in your opinion, even if hundreds of thousands (maybe > 1 million) die.

I want you to justify your position with this in mind.

Remember the OP about Israel's Arab MP's who shed a little light into what their kind of leadership would look like?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134126189

Now that was ugly, but it's what you're advocating.

Defend that.

return to their ancestral homeland.

The "terrible civil war, genocide, ethnic cleansing" will never happen.

Did you somehow forget about them? Pretend they're just Teddy bears?

Now assume with an Arab majority that the Joint List (at best) gains control in Israel. How does that make life in Israel more progressive than it currently is? Why would women, gays, christians, or jews in Israel want that?

Would you want to live under Joint List control (no gay rights, freedom of speech...)?

Be honest.

That's kind of the genesis of the whole problem. Nobody's ever asked the Palestinians, only imposed on them and demanded of them.

Sadly, it is the British government, or rather Lord Balfour who are as much to blame as anyone.

In 1919 Balfour wrote to Lord Curzon:

"....in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country….The Four Great Powers are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land."