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Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
Mon May 16, 2016, 10:02 PM May 2016

Detroit Jews ask: Are settlement boycotts the same as BDS?

Source: Times of Israel

Community’s annual Walk for Israel won’t accept sponsorship from those who support blacklisting West Bank products

JTA — For the second year in a row, the Detroit area’s Walk for Israel has rebuffed the sponsorship of left-wing pro-Israel groups because of their support for boycotting settlements.

At the heart of the dispute is a question of definitions: Is support of a boycott targeting Jewish enterprises beyond Israel’s 1967 borders the same as backing the blanket economic and cultural boycott of Israel called for by the pro-Palestinian Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement?

Andre Douville, the chairman of the coalition organizing the walk, said Partners for Progressive Israel and Americans for Peace Now fit the coalition’s definition of supporting the BDS movement.

“Simply put, our advocacy and policy statement says that any organization that supports any form of BDS would not be accepted as a cosponsor,” Douville told JTA on Friday, two days before the event, which celebrates Israel’s independence. “They want to argue that they only support it for business in the occupied territories.”

Read more: http://www.timesofisrael.com/detroit-jews-ask-are-settlement-boycotts-the-same-as-bds/

51 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Detroit Jews ask: Are settlement boycotts the same as BDS? (Original Post) Little Tich May 2016 OP
I think a lot of this .... Israeli May 2016 #1
Fortunately, today there's the internet, and it's very good at unindoctrinating people. Little Tich May 2016 #2
Funny you should say that ..... Israeli May 2016 #10
It's not that at all. aranthus May 2016 #3
No IMO it's that many proIsrael American already believe that the West Bank settlements azurnoir May 2016 #4
As one of those pro-Israel American Jews aranthus May 2016 #5
well as ou say you're 1 azurnoir May 2016 #7
And you're not. aranthus May 2016 #8
you make oh so many assumptions don't you azurnoir May 2016 #9
More of a conclusion, but please correct me. aranthus May 2016 #11
Wow........ Israeli May 2016 #13
Yea but he's talking about the average secular American Jew King_David May 2016 #17
" secular " KD ..........????? !!!!!!!!!!!!........... Israeli May 2016 #20
Maybe you should come learn about us KD ? Israeli May 2016 #21
Oh I turned up alright, but you weren't anywhere near Tel Aviv King_David May 2016 #31
Liar , liar ..... Israeli May 2016 #40
Strange , I don't remember making any concrete plan at all King_David May 2016 #43
See Post 37. n/t aranthus May 2016 #38
Since you are so free with your interrogation..... Israeli May 2016 #15
Correct decision by the court. Beyond that, not at all relevant. n/t aranthus May 2016 #26
I'm pretty sure the assumptions Aranthus made are correct King_David May 2016 #18
If I were you I would let "Aranthus " answer for himself .... Israeli May 2016 #22
somehow your comment makes me remember this does it seem familiar to you? azurnoir May 2016 #23
Go easy on him azurnoir..... Israeli May 2016 #27
Lol I know can't say I wasn't warned azurnoir May 2016 #28
What an ignorant,sexist and in this case - homophobic thing to say on a progressive forum... King_David May 2016 #34
kick King_David May 2016 #47
What an ignorant,sexist and in this case - homophobic thing to say on a progressive forum... King_David May 2016 #48
I have absolutely no idea WTF your talking about here and I assume you have absolutely no idea WTF King_David May 2016 #32
lol I said I knew what it signified but I'm glad to see you do too azurnoir May 2016 #33
Clueless King_David May 2016 #35
are you? sorry to hear that azurnoir May 2016 #36
" Clueless " Israeli May 2016 #44
Thank you King_David May 2016 #45
Not an assumption aranthus May 2016 #25
I am not nor was I ever religious so there for no torah lessons azurnoir May 2016 #29
Gadol .... Israeli May 2016 #30
I wasn't asking if you were religious. aranthus May 2016 #37
You think Peace Now is anti-Israel ? Israeli May 2016 #14
Way to divert. aranthus May 2016 #41
That's absolutely the reason without a doubt. n/t shira May 2016 #39
The same? Of course not. FBaggins May 2016 #6
The Illegality of all Israeli Settlements Little Tich May 2016 #12
Adalah is a joke. We went over that already with their fictitious list of 50 discriminatory laws... shira May 2016 #16
You never convinced me with your weak arguments about Adalah's list. Little Tich May 2016 #19
Adalah's claims would make the Gregorian Calendar & Scandinavian flags discriminatory.... shira May 2016 #24
I think that it would be more inclusive to include official references to Israel's Arab heritage and Little Tich May 2016 #49
The Christian Gregorian Calendar is not discriminatory, nor are Scandinavian flags.... shira May 2016 #50
Was that supposed to be responsive? FBaggins May 2016 #42
It seems to me that the offer to the Palestinians was just unspecified areas of desert: Little Tich May 2016 #46
As to transferring civilians, you have no idea what you're writing about... shira May 2016 #51

Israeli

(4,286 posts)
1. I think a lot of this ....
Tue May 17, 2016, 03:55 AM
May 2016

....can be placed at the door of ignorance Little Tich , or perhaps lack of education would be a better way to put it .

see : Despite years of Jewish education, much of which focused on Israel, this young American Zionist was still ignorant of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.

http://972mag.com/jewish-educations-sin-of-omission/119397/

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
2. Fortunately, today there's the internet, and it's very good at unindoctrinating people.
Tue May 17, 2016, 05:43 AM
May 2016

A school is supposed to be a moral authority, and shouldn't be teaching people things that aren't really true. It's not exclusively a Jewish problem - I went to a school that embraced Christian values for a while, and they taught me that playing Dungeons & Dragons was tantamount to summoning Satan. I never told them that I enthusiastically summoned Satan every week.

There's a definite risk that some of these people who realized that they were practically lied to, will turn against their school and dismiss everything that they were taught, not just the bad bits. But then again, some of them probably won't care, and will keep believing in what they were told.

Israeli

(4,286 posts)
10. Funny you should say that .....
Wed May 18, 2016, 01:20 AM
May 2016

Take a look at this .....

Israeli, Palestinian teens open back channel via Facebook

Summary: What started as verbal hostilities between Israeli and Gazan teenagers turned into meaningful online dialogue when mutual accusations gave way to curiosity about each other's lives.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/05/israel-gaza-social-media-facebook-youth-communication.html#ixzz48z9LdhvC

I hope the fanatics on both sides will let them continue but somehow I doubt it .

aranthus

(3,386 posts)
3. It's not that at all.
Tue May 17, 2016, 01:30 PM
May 2016

It is that so much of the anti-Israel crowd seeks the destruction of the Jewish state, and that there is so much interconnection between groups with legitimate concern and those that are hateful and that try to conceal their hatefulness in the usual high souding slogans, that it is safer to err on the cautious side and have no truck with anything that smacks of being anti-Israel.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
4. No IMO it's that many proIsrael American already believe that the West Bank settlements
Tue May 17, 2016, 01:37 PM
May 2016

are part of Israel

Israeli

(4,286 posts)
13. Wow........
Wed May 18, 2016, 04:09 AM
May 2016

....just wow ...........true colors .

Who says religion has nothing to do with the IP conflict .........

You ask the average secular Israeli that aranthus your in for a shock .

King_David

(14,851 posts)
17. Yea but he's talking about the average secular American Jew
Wed May 18, 2016, 05:39 AM
May 2016

You should come visit and learn about us.

Israeli

(4,286 posts)
21. Maybe you should come learn about us KD ?
Wed May 18, 2016, 07:33 AM
May 2016

So why when we set up a meeting with you ........you never turned up ?

King_David

(14,851 posts)
31. Oh I turned up alright, but you weren't anywhere near Tel Aviv
Wed May 18, 2016, 11:19 AM
May 2016

or Jerusalem or Eilat or Rosh Hanikra

Israeli

(4,286 posts)
40. Liar , liar .....
Wed May 18, 2016, 12:47 PM
May 2016

...........pants on fire .

You initiated the whole lets meet up .........like it was a test .
All done thru/by pushing me to the limits .
So I agreed .
You wanted me to meet you in a gay bar in Tel Aviv .
I told you no way ......a 65 yr old grandmother meeting some stranger in a bar, gay or not !!!!!
So I said ....lets meet closer to my home , and not alone , with my son ....I gave you a time and place .... you never showed up KD .

I have it all documented with our PMs .

You didnt turn up .... cos you are sooooooo full of it KD .....and you are not fooling anyone ...least of all me .




King_David

(14,851 posts)
43. Strange , I don't remember making any concrete plan at all
Wed May 18, 2016, 02:10 PM
May 2016

I'll check.
I missed a great opportunity ,I'm sure ,to educate you on American Jews and Gay life in Tel Aviv - that's too bad.

Israeli

(4,286 posts)
15. Since you are so free with your interrogation.....
Wed May 18, 2016, 04:40 AM
May 2016

............whats your opinion on this ???? :

Court Orders Israeli City to Lay Off Pork-selling Shops on Shabbat

Ashdod municipality was imposing selective enforcement on five stores which 'prominently display the fact that they sell food that is not kosher,' judge rules.

Source : http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.720171

aranthus

(3,386 posts)
26. Correct decision by the court. Beyond that, not at all relevant. n/t
Wed May 18, 2016, 10:00 AM
May 2016

Last edited Wed May 18, 2016, 12:29 PM - Edit history (1)

King_David

(14,851 posts)
18. I'm pretty sure the assumptions Aranthus made are correct
Wed May 18, 2016, 05:41 AM
May 2016

we all free to make assumptions and assumptions can be corrected too... I myself am from the same community.

Israeli

(4,286 posts)
22. If I were you I would let "Aranthus " answer for himself ....
Wed May 18, 2016, 08:13 AM
May 2016

...so why when we agreed to meet with you .....you never turned up KD ???

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
23. somehow your comment makes me remember this does it seem familiar to you?
Wed May 18, 2016, 09:42 AM
May 2016


it was someone avatar yes I know what it signifies and that's great but the avatar it self does it seem familiar?

Israeli

(4,286 posts)
27. Go easy on him azurnoir.....
Wed May 18, 2016, 10:23 AM
May 2016

.....I cant stand it when a grown man weeps .

Probably never crossed his mind we would share ......

King_David

(14,851 posts)
34. What an ignorant,sexist and in this case - homophobic thing to say on a progressive forum...
Wed May 18, 2016, 11:50 AM
May 2016
.....I cant stand it when a grown man weeps .




In 2016 it's pretty okay for both men and women to weep and I can only assume you said that about myself because I am Gay.

Are you sure you live in a progressive country like Israel ?

King_David

(14,851 posts)
32. I have absolutely no idea WTF your talking about here and I assume you have absolutely no idea WTF
Wed May 18, 2016, 11:23 AM
May 2016

You're talking about here either


That avatar means one in 10 Jews is Gay , hence one in every Minyon

But I'm pretty sure you've never been a part of any of that as your complete ignorance and cluelessness and homophobia is showing.
Your clearly not a part of the Jewish community and that's pretty obvious .

Israeli

(4,286 posts)
44. " Clueless "
Wed May 18, 2016, 02:29 PM
May 2016


Not really

BTW azurnoir ..........have you heard how amazing we Israelis are at everything hi tech ?

aranthus

(3,386 posts)
25. Not an assumption
Wed May 18, 2016, 09:58 AM
May 2016

I've been on the board for years and so has azurenoir. I have had the chance to read lots of his/her posts. My conclusion may be wrong and I will wait to see if/how my question is answered.

aranthus

(3,386 posts)
37. I wasn't asking if you were religious.
Wed May 18, 2016, 12:28 PM
May 2016

Last edited Wed May 18, 2016, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Were you an American secular Jew, you might have picked up on that.

To be clear, especially for those who are not Jewish, I was asking about your connection to, and/or education in, anything Jewish that would give some legitimacy to your disparaging post about what American Jews think.

I'm not religious. I have many family members who are not religious. Many of us are either Israeli or children of Israelis. Virtually all of us could answer the question, "What branch?" You didn't.

As for the "Torah portion" question. Most of the Jews I know, religious or not, know what a Torah portion refers to, and they would have answered with that, instead of how you answered. Your answer was a bit off.

But let's assume that you are telling the truth. What if you really had no Jewish education growing up, and you aren't at all religious? What can we conclude from that? Well if your parents didn't care enough about passing on their Jewish heritage (or if they didn't have any Jewish education either) to give you any Jewish education, then are they the kind of people who would believe that the settlements are part of Israel? That's supremely unlikely. And if it's true then it's because they are bloody ignorant, not because they are Jewish. So the chances are you didn't come across that opinion in your family. Even more unlikely that it would be a majority opinion.

And if you aren't religious and you didn't have a Jewish education, then what Jews would you associate with now? If you are like most Leftists of Jewish Parentage, then they would be other Leftists. So also not people who would hold the opinion you ascribe to the majority of Jews.

So I stand by my original point. I think I know more about the Jewish Community, and your post is an unfair disparagement.

FBaggins

(27,507 posts)
6. The same? Of course not.
Tue May 17, 2016, 09:04 PM
May 2016

But worthy of opposition nevertheless. A few reasons:

* - It's an astroturf tactic of the BDS movement
* - Quite a few of those products are made by Palestinian employees who benefit directly from the employment.
* - Even in a two-state solution, most peace proposals assume that large portions of Area C settlements will be part of Israel. How do consumers differentiate between areas that are truly "occupied" and those that will remain under permanent Israeli control?

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
12. The Illegality of all Israeli Settlements
Wed May 18, 2016, 02:32 AM
May 2016

Source: Adalah NY

The Geneva Conventions outline the responsibilities of an occupying power. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a party, states are prohibited from transferring civilians from the occupying power's territory into the occupied territory, and from creating permanent changes in the occupied territory that are not for the benefit of the occupied population.

There is broad international consensus that that all Israeli settlements in the West Bank – which includes East Jerusalem - violate the Fourth Geneva Convention and are, therefore, illegal according to international law. This position has been affirmed by the UN Security Council in Resolution 465, the International Court of Justice, the world's highest legal body, and by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the respected Israeli human rights organization, B'Tselem. Not only did the US government repeatedly affirm this position throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the Israeli Supreme Court has acknowledged de facto its validity by ruling that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are under "belligerent occupation."


Read more: https://adalahny.org/campaign-main-document/538/illegality-all-israeli-settlements

There's no consensus whatsoever that Israel should be allowed to keep the "settlement blocs", and Netanyahu hasn't offered any swaps. According to UN resolutions and international law, they've got to go.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
16. Adalah is a joke. We went over that already with their fictitious list of 50 discriminatory laws...
Wed May 18, 2016, 05:29 AM
May 2016

....in Israel. Of course, we can continue with that idiotic list but you'll still pretend they're legitimate and continue to air their propaganda and lies here.

We also just concluded that there is no Apartheid in the W.Bank, so why are you backing anti-Israel boycotts now? Your main reason for doing so was because of "Apartheid" which you now realize doesn't exist.

Remember, it's the constant, deliberate lies about Israel that expose "critics" for who they really are.


Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
19. You never convinced me with your weak arguments about Adalah's list.
Wed May 18, 2016, 06:09 AM
May 2016

At best, it was a draw.

You're the one who concluded that there's no Apartheid in the occupied territories, not me.

The Adalah list is still unrefuted - I remain convinced that the Israeli government's mandated use of exclusively Jewish imagery does indeed discriminate against non-Jewish citizens.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
24. Adalah's claims would make the Gregorian Calendar & Scandinavian flags discriminatory....
Wed May 18, 2016, 09:50 AM
May 2016

Last edited Wed May 18, 2016, 11:58 AM - Edit history (1)

Come on. Claiming the Gregorian calendar or Scandinavian flags are discriminatory is stupid and no one sane argues those symbols are discriminatory. Any loon doing so wouldn't be taken seriously by anyone of importance. I don't think you even believe a Hebrew Calendar and Star of David Flag is discriminatory and if you claim Christian calendars and flags aren't discriminatory but Jewish ones are, then you're the one with the problem.

Another stupid claim by Adalah is that a law that grants benefits to Jewish soldiers is discriminatory because Arabs aren't required to serve in the army like Jews or Druze. The thing is Arabs CAN serve if they want, they're just not required to do so. I want to see you acknowledge this doozy because you'd definitely be against Israel requiring Arabs to serve in its military. Israel gives them a choice due to many who want to avoid fighting fellow Palestinians. Now seriously - if you believe it's discriminatory for Israel not to require Arabs to serve in its military, then give an intelligent reason as to why. I want to see you argue for Israel making military service mandatory for all Arab citizens of Israel. Go on...

Give up yet? I just re-opened that thread since you were so anxious to debate those "discriminatory" laws.

As to Apartheid, you couldn't even present a dictionary definition of the term that would demonstrate how what Israel does (in contrast to any other liberal democracy) falls under the definition of Apartheid. You know full well there's no such thing as Apartheid based on nationality, and that's the best you could argue since the W.Bank situation isn't about race, ethnicity, or religion....meaning no Apartheid.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
49. I think that it would be more inclusive to include official references to Israel's Arab heritage and
Thu May 19, 2016, 02:36 AM
May 2016

population.

Mandating the exclusive use of Jewish references implies that Israeli Arabs aren't supposed to have a voice or be noticed.

Just a few days ago, Israel’s 68th Independence Day festivities showed a chilling example of this exclusionary imagery, when soldiers formed the words "One People, one Nation". According to Miri Regev, Minister of Culture: “The phrase ‘one people, one nation’ is an expression of the just aspiration of the Zionist movement since its inception: to establish a Jewish state.” (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.719538) I beg to differ - that's a fascist slogan.


Source: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2016/05/12/israel-independence-day-evokes-nazi-era-slogan/

There's a music group called Laibach that has explored monumentalist art, and I think their interpretation in this video clip is pretty close to what Miri Regev meant:

Laibach - Geburt einer Nation (Opus Dei) Official Video


Source:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE1VRNkKm2u6xI_No7SCKVQ

BTW, I support mandatory draft for all citizens - that's how things are supposed to be done. If I was Israeli, I would of course not hesitate to serve in the IDF. It's a duty that can't be shirked.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
50. The Christian Gregorian Calendar is not discriminatory, nor are Scandinavian flags....
Thu May 19, 2016, 05:56 AM
May 2016

Last edited Thu May 19, 2016, 06:47 AM - Edit history (1)

You cannot make an argument that Israel's Hebrew Calendar, stamps, or Flag are discriminatory either.

Otherwise - you'd be forced to acknowlege the same throughout other western, liberal democracies.

Case closed.

FBaggins

(27,507 posts)
42. Was that supposed to be responsive?
Wed May 18, 2016, 01:27 PM
May 2016

I point out that it isn't an authentic movement, but rather a slippery-slope tactic of the BDS movement... and your rebuttal is a link from a rabidly BDS organization? Were you trying to be entertaining or does it just come naturally?

I point out that many of those products are produced by Palestinian employees who benefit from the income. Your response doesn't even try to touch on this fact.

Lastly, I pointed out that most peace proposals assume land swaps that would put the vast majority of the population of the settlements into Israel proper. Did you think that you refuted this simple fact by claiming that the position wasn't unanimous? If so, you failed miserably.

and Netanyahu hasn't offered any swaps.


Untrue.

However, Palestinians have consistently stressed that any land swap must be equal in size and quality. The London-based Al-Quds Al-Arabi translated an Israeli report saying that the major disagreement between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators is the size and quality of the swap. According to this report, the gap between the two sides is huge. Israel wishes to annex nearly 10% of the West Bank, while Palestinians are open to a much smaller 3%. The Israeli report, originally published on the Hebrew-language website Walla News, says that the percentage is derived from the calls by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to include the Hebron and Beit El settlements. In January, AFP picked up an interview from Israeli radio in which Netanyahu said Israel would like to annex 13% of the West Bank. All these figures exclude Jerusalem.


According to UN resolutions and international law, they've got to go.

Also untrue. There's an argument to be made that they violate a number of international standards. At the same time, an easy argument can be made that the Palestinians have committed scores of war crimes and other violations of international standards themselves. You don't get to point at one side's violations and claim that it means that they give up everything.

That's why they're called peace negotiations.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
46. It seems to me that the offer to the Palestinians was just unspecified areas of desert:
Wed May 18, 2016, 09:13 PM
May 2016
Palestinians receive little in Israeli-proposed land-swap deal
Source: AL Monitor, February 25, 2014
While Israel has been publicly boasting about the areas in the West Bank it wishes to annex, partly in order to quiet some of the settler opposition, it is less known what land plots Israel is willing to give the Palestinians. The controversial idea of turning over to the Palestinians some highly populated Israeli town in the Galilee triangle area made by far-right Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman was never taken seriously and disappeared from the discussion once Liberman decided to take on a more moderate tone. The only references to other potential areas include empty plots of Israeli land near the Gaza Strip and some north of the West Bank near Jenin. These plots don’t fit the Palestinian criteria of quality, nor are the suggested areas large enough to meet the size criteria.


Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/02/land-swap-israel-palestine-walla.html#


Do you have a map of the Israeli lands to be offered up as a swap? Surely a land swap proposal must include a map...


And BTW, states are completely prohibited from transferring civilians from the occupying power's territory into the occupied territory according to the Geneva Convention. The settlements are a clear example of transfer of civilians, and a war crime.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
51. As to transferring civilians, you have no idea what you're writing about...
Thu May 19, 2016, 06:53 AM
May 2016

That Geneva convention clearly applies to WW2 events like deporting Jews from occupied territory to death camps and has nothing to do with I/P civilians choosing voluntarily to live on their ancestral lands.

Have you actually read the applicable text?

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