Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsrael is facing an existential crisis. And the threat is its own government, not outside forces
It's not just Ya'alon issuing dire warnings. A few weeks before he spoke out, so did General Golan. Now former PM Barak is so making out in no uncertain terms
But before I get into that......
I used to post a lot in I/P, often defending Israel against attacks that I thought were flat wrong. Years ago, this forum was a lot wilder, and there was a disturbing amount of antisemitism. Lithos was an excellent moderator and good at tombstoning those people who kept popping up.
I don't hate Israel. There are quite a few things that I admire about the country. I am disgusted by calls to move Israel to... wherever. Although I no longer have much hope for it, I still support two states. I understand the Israeli desire to maintain Israel as as Jewish state and I realize that that's at least as much rooted in culture as it is in religion.
But. And it's a big but.
Israel's radical shift to the right isn't just Netanyahu. It's also the Israeli public. Ignoring that is denying reality. Why do you think people like Barak and Ya'alon are speaking in such harsh terms? Not, obviously, because they hate their country. What they are all saying, in one way or another, is that long term occupation destroys the occupier as surely, if more insidiously, as it destroys the occupied. Here is what Barak had to say:
<snip>
Israel’s ex-prime minister has warned that his country is “infected by the seeds of fascism.”
Ehud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister and defense minister, said in an interview on Israeli TV on Friday night that fascistic, extreme right-wing politics are on the rise in his country, Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported.
“What has happened is a hostile takeover of the Israeli government by dangerous elements,” he cautioned. “And it’s just the beginning.”
<snip>
Former Prime Minister Barak, from Israel’s centrist Labor party, said Ya’alon’s resignation is “the end of a chain that began with the case of the soldier who shot” a wounded Palestinian assailant who was lying on the ground incapacitated, killing him in an incident in the illegally occupied West Bank that was caught on camera.
In the interview on Israel’s Channel 10, Barak cited ultra right-wing legislation that is being pushed by members of the ruling coalition, adding, “This government needs to be brought down before it brings all of us down.”
“There are no serious leaders left in the world who believe the Israeli government,” the former Israeli prime minister said.
<snip>
http://www.salon.com/2016/05/21/israel_is_infected_by_the_seeds_of_fascism_and_has_been_taken_over_by_extremists_warn_ex_prime_minister_and_defense_ministers/
These Israel leaders from the center and the right are issuing a loud warning. They are clear: Israel is in an existential crisis due to the extremist right.
The appointment of Liebermn, a man as hateful and radically right wing as anyone in any government, is appalling. This man called for "disloyal" Arab-Israelis to be beheaded. And so much more. Minister of Defense? A man who has called for genocide? Even more insane than his previous position as Minister of Foreign Affairs. It's not only Netanyahu and Lieberman. Liked leadership is riddled with bigoted fascists.
<snip>
At least one prominent far-right Israeli politicians has even identified as a fascist. In 2012, lawmaker Miri Regev boasted in a TV interview that she is “happy to be a fascist.” Regev now serves as Israel’s minister of culture.
Israel’s justice minister, Ayelet Shaked, is also a extreme right-wing nationalist who has essentially echoed calls for the genocide of Palestinians.
<snip>
http://www.salon.com/2016/05/21/israel_is_infected_by_the_seeds_of_fascism_and_has_been_taken_over_by_extremists_warn_ex_prime_minister_and_defense_ministers/
Pointing this out isn't hating Israel. It's not defending Hamas. It's facing reality. This way lies madness.
A wise man once said that Nationalism is a state of mind in which a man hates another's country more than he loves his own. That charge has often been leveled at the Palestinians. It fits Israel today. (The wise man was Friedrich Reck-Malleczewen)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Reck-Malleczewen
I realize I've broken I/P protocol with this post. I would hope that those of you who disagree with it, won't rush to alert, but if so and this thread is locked, so be it.
= new reply since forum marked as read
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villager
(26,001 posts)The two are mutually exclusive.
(So says this teacher at a synagogue, btw...)
cali
(114,904 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)
jg10003
(1,027 posts)Pendulums swing left to right and back again. France, Germany, Sweden, and the U.S are all seeing right-wing politicians getting elected. Israel is no different. But remember, Netanyahu received only 23% in the last election and his coalition has a 1 seat majority. The majority of Israelis still support a two state solution. Israel is a nation of laws protected by an independent judiciary, just like the United States. Lieberman's hateful rhetoric has no more chance of being enacted than Trump's. So relax, Netanyahu is not prime minister for life. There will be elections and the pendulum will swing back.
cali
(114,904 posts)And the blithe comparison to France and other countries is both jarring and erroneous for fairly obvious reasons, such as a decades long occupation.
Somehow I put more stock in what the just resigned Defense Minister and former PM are saying than your cavalier comments that amount to "no big deal".
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It's getting too serious - these people are really bad. No country deserves people like Avigdor Liberman in the government.
Mosby
(17,474 posts)Bibi is taking a hell of a risk.
The IDF needs a strong, qualified and sane leader, Lieberman is none of those things.
cali
(114,904 posts)I find that frightening. Your concern is that this appalling bigoted, genocide proponent is "u qualified?
I honestly don't know what to say to you.
Mosby
(17,474 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)
King_David
(14,851 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)what Barak said?
King_David
(14,851 posts)But it's not new, unfortunately the Israeli government is ruled by the right wing and an unsavory extremist is about to become defense minister.
Compared to its neighbors in the regressive Palestinian statelets, who hate women and Gays , the Defense Minister is positively progressive.
Hopefully Israel's citizens will correct this democratically.
Israeli
(4,300 posts)"Dark forces
Are rising
In the
Israeli society,”
So warned
General Ya’ir Golan.
“You have seen
Nothing yet!”
Answers Netanyahu
And appoints
Lieberman as
Defense Minister.
Published in Haaretz, 20/05/16
Source : http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/weekly_ad/1463757030/
Israeli
(4,300 posts)How knowledgeable are you on Israeli politics ?
Have you any idea just who is about to take Ya'alon's slot within Likud ??
Its Yehuda Glick .
ref : http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.720667
Temple Mount Activist Yehuda Glick to Replace Ya'alon as Knesset Member
He was previously executive director of The Temple Institute, which promotes the construction of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount.
He is the soft spoken face of the " dangerous elements " that Ehud Barak was referring to :
“What has happened is a hostile takeover of the Israeli government by dangerous elements,” he cautioned. “And it’s just the beginning.”
Lieberman is outspoken and obvious ....Yehuda Glick and his group are much more devious and thus much more dangerous.
cali
(114,904 posts)I wasn't familiar with Gluck.
Israeli
(4,300 posts)How familiar are you with Moshe Feiglin ?
http://www.jewishisrael.org/bye-bye-bogy-by-moshe-feiglin/
I have no great expectations of Lieberman. Rightist ideology and power bereft of clear purpose always becomes a double-edged sword. It would behoove us all to remember former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who was no less rightist and forceful than Lieberman. But all that we can say to Ya’alon is good-bye and good riddance.
Like Glick he is a religious fanatic .....and like Glick he is much more dangerous than Lieberman.
cali
(114,904 posts)Israeli
(4,300 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....expecting "better" from a rightwinger. So it appears he's leary about Lieberman & wouldn't be surprised if Lieberman did some surprising things like Sharon that Feiglin would see as "leftwing".
Israeli
(4,300 posts)...." disappointed with Sharon's Gaza pullout..." shira .....he was screaming mad enough to get himself arrested .
But no that is not it ....first of he is digging at those that although Rightists are secular and secondly, more importantly, are the two words " clear purpose " .
What does he mean by " clear purpose " ....for that you have to really read up on his ideology .
Here is a taste ( although Feiglin is actually more extreme than Bennet is ) :
http://972mag.com/naftali-bennets-vision-equality-through-jewish-supremacy/119466/
Naftali Bennett's vision: Equality through Jewish supremacy
Behind all the pretty words, Bennett’s speech at the Israel Prize ceremony reveals exactly what he’s after: a Jewish nationalist theocracy.
sabbat hunter
(6,893 posts)Is Bibi drunk or on drugs?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)
Who knows more about Israel than that guy!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)can't be undone, or fixed, whatever. They can only be allowed to play themselves out over the decades to come.
madaboutharry
(41,358 posts)David Ben-Gurion came out of retirement and implored the military to withdraw from the West Bank. He argued that occupation would only serve to corrupt the military, the government, and eventually the nation.
His words have come to fruition.
One can only wonder how history would have unfolded. It would not have been easy. Peace would have been a very tough road, but who knows how much pain may have been avoided.