Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe new McCarthyism is pro-Israel: Legal groups slam NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo for creating
unconstitutional blacklist of BDS supportersSource: Salon
Legislators in states throughout the U.S. are trying to push through pro-Israel bills that would punish Palestinian human rights advocates who endorse boycotts like those organized in order to combat U.S.-backed apartheid in South Africa.
Legal groups have long warned that this legislation amounts to 21st-century McCarthyism and would create discriminatory blacklists of Palestinian solidarity activists.
New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo has propelled this neo-McCarthyite movement to the next level, amid intense pressure from pro-Israel groups.
For months, the New York legislature has unsuccessfully tried to pass anti-boycott legislation. Cuomo circumvented this legal process completely on Sunday and signed a surprise executive order that punishes institutions that support a boycott of Israel on behalf of Palestinian human rights.
Read more: http://www.salon.com/2016/06/06/the_new_mccarthyism_is_pro_israel_legal_groups_slam_ny_gov_andrew_cuomo_for_creating_unconstitutional_blacklist_of_bds_supporters/
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I forgot to check the author.
Ben Norton has been published in Mondoweiss and Electronic Intifada apart from Salon, but I couldn't find anything about him or his writings that seemed inappropriate. I suppose you're just trying to deflect from the actual subject, which is whether it's OK or not to stifle people's right to express a political opinion.
Personally, I think that free speech is important, and that Cuomo should stop attacking it.
shira
(30,109 posts)As to legality, businesses are not allowed to refuse servicing Blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, Jews, etc.
Same for BDS hate discrimination against the Jewish state.
Response to shira (Reply #2)
Little Tich This message was self-deleted by its author.
King_David
(14,851 posts)LOL
shira
(30,109 posts)Proving once more how racist and destructive the BDS movement is.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)for all of BDS is logically sound.
I know that it's easy to fall for simplified arguments like that, but don't be surprised if some people may disagree with you. It's quite significant that I haven't seen any qualified defense of Cuomo's attacks on free speech, not here on DU, nor anywhere else.
Do you have any opinion on whether Cuomo's bill is trying to curb free speech and its constitutionality?
6chars
(3,967 posts)You are implicitly saying that an organization spending money is equal to speech. OK, the Supreme Court agrees with you on that, e.g., Citizen's United.
Nonetheless, governments often use laws to influence such actions. For example,
private organizations are free to spend their resources as they want as long as it does not violate criminal law, but they can't expect the government to want to do business with them.
Title IX: No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.
What about a business that refuses to serve gays? Isn't that speech? Well, no, they might be charged with violations of the Civil Rights Act, or other discrimination laws, and the government could also refuse to do business with them.
These laws have been tested and are constitutional. There are certainly people who disagree with them, and there are certainly opportunities for private organizations to do choose not to be open to the public at all and to act in ways that the rest of us may not approve, but even though they won't be jailed or fined, they can't expect government support.
Just because Ben Norton and friends may want the constitution to be against Israel, doesn't mean it is and sloppy reasoning won't make it so.
On another point, Ben Norton's introduction of "McCarthyism" to describe support of Israel is a new one, but not surprising. Zionists are now called every bad thing in the world: Apartheid, Fascist, Racist, Genocidal, Colonialist, Imperialist, and now McCarthyite. This is getting kind of transparent - the projection of all the sins of the modern world onto one small country.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)My opinion about Cuomo's bill is based on articles like these:
The Fight Against BDS Just Took A Frightening Turn In New York
Source: Thinkprogress, JUN 6, 2016
Cuomo declared that the order sends a strong message against the hateful, intolerant campaign of the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) Movement a non-violent grassroots movement that first began in 2005 and places economic and political pressure on Israel to acknowledge Palestinian rights and end its illegal occupation of Palestinian territories. But many are concerned that the executive order goes a step too far.
The executive order requires the New York State Office of General Services to create a blacklist of institutions and companies involved in the BDS movement using credible information available to the public and make that list available to everyone online. All state agencies will be required to divest from such companies, which will have to submit written evidence to be appeal to be removed from the list.
Regardless of ones position on BDS, the order could be concerning because it ultimately requires the blacklisted institutions to prove their own innocence or else face repercussions, and it punishes companies on the basis of their political beliefs.
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2016/06/06/3784963/new-york-cuomo-bds/
Debate: Is Cuomo's Crackdown on BDS Unconstitutional McCarthyism or a Stand Against Anti-Semitism?
Source: Democracy Now, JUNE 09, 2016
Read more: http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/9/debate_is_cuomos_crackdown_on_bds
Gov. Cuomos BDS Blacklist Is an Affront to Free Expression
Source: Common Dreams, June 10, 2016
"Government cant penalize people or entities on the basis of their free expression, and political boycotts are a form of free expression."
Its very simple: If you boycott against Israel, New York will boycott you, Cuomo said when he announced the order.
The directive requires all agencies and departments over which the governor has executive authority as well as certain public benefit corporations, public authorities, boards, and commissions to divest funds from any company or institution supporting BDS. The entities are also banned from investing in those companies in the future.
The order itself makes clear that the activity the governor wants to punish is political in nature. But, as the Supreme Court made clear, government cant penalize people or entities on the basis of their free expression, and political boycotts are a form of free expression.
Read more: http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/06/10/gov-cuomos-bds-blacklist-affront-free-expression
Why Andrew Cuomo Is Worst Possible Face of the Anti-BDS Movement
Source: The Forward, June 6, 2016
The measure couldnt find its way through the state legislature, so Cuomo took to Twitter and announced that he would issue an executive order banning the state from doing business with groups that boycott Israel.
Cuomos fierce advocacy for Israel is unsurprising. He has an eye on the White House and, as a well known Democrat with a host of conservative views, a fierce anti-BDS position works well to get the support of establishment Democrats who fear the leftward shift in the party marked by Bernie Sanderss presidential campaign. Indeed Israel was Cuomos first choice of foreign destination as governor, signaling that the interests of Israel were deeply tied his state.
But if Cuomos maverick stance on BDS has any effect, it would be to move the anti-BDS movement into illiberal territory. This is not new territory for Cuomo, whose tenure has included advocacy for fracking (although he did finally give in due to environmentalist pressure), privatizing public education, demanding punishing monetary concessions from state worker unions, using New York Citys public university funding as a political football against New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio and fighting New York Citys universal pre-K program.
Read more: http://forward.com/opinion/342037/why-andrew-cuomo-is-worst-possible-face-of-the-anti-bds-movement/
Andrew Cuomo Would Have Blacklisted Muhammad Ali
Source: Democratic Underground, Jun 9, 2016 / The Nation
Read more: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027891818
shira
(30,109 posts)As to Cuomo, I find this similar to many US states not wanting to do business with North Carolina after that state passed legislation discriminating against LGBTQ's. In a very similar way, BDS discriminates against the Jewish nation - and only the Jewish nation so there's no reason NY state needs to do business with certain organizations discriminating against the Jewish state.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)BDS is about ending Israeli Human rights abuses in the occupied territories, and there's no actual BDS being done against any company that isn't connected to the occupation or the settlements. The only anti-BDS list sofar is the one from Illinois which only has companies that refrain from doing business with the settlements on its list:
Source: http://forward.com/news/338058/did-illinois-bungle-first-in-nation-anti-bds-blacklist/
While there are some superficial similarities between the Free Palestine Movement and other pro-Palestinian organizations, that particular organization is a racist organization with murky goals. It's not mainstream, as most pro-Palestinian advocacy are against racism and human rights violations, and BDS is a tool for that.
You've tried to argue that BDS is racist on several occasions, and every time you've been completely unsuccessful. At least you've managed to prove that some racists support BDS too, but it doesn't make BDS in itself a racist endeavor as long as it doesn't target companies because they're Jewish.
shira
(30,109 posts)You say we've argued "unsuccessfully" that BDS is racist and yet you like Mondoweiss.
Please explain.
shira
(30,109 posts)....against the Palestine Solidarity Movement (PSM) or ISM. Where are they? Show me.
Mondoweiss supports them, so does ElectronicIntifada, JVP, SJP, ACRI, Max Blumenthal, Jeremy Corbyn, David Duke, Alison Weir of IfAmericansKnew, Hamas, Hezbollah and every other gutter anti-semite associated with or working alongside the BDS movement.
But prove me wrong, please. I'm begging you....
aranthus
(3,386 posts)Most either lie or are willfully deluded.
shira
(30,109 posts)At least Hamas is honest & everyone knows where they're coming from.
Of course, most BDS'ers support and defend Hamas...pretending that equates to support of Palestinians in general.
aranthus
(3,386 posts)Barghouti at least admits that if BDS goals were achieved that there wouldn't be an Israel.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I support some of the articles that are published in Mondoweiss, so when the Association for Investment in Popular Action Committees, which in some way supports the Free Palestine Movement, publishes an open letter protesting against Cuomo's unconstitutional clampdown on free speech, I'm suddenly connected to the FPM and apparently their views are my views...
Well, that explains why you think BDS is anti-Semitic - apparently, if a single person who supports BDS is a racist, then everyone who supports BDS are racists... I think your linkage is weak, and it doesn't match reality - I'm not an anti-Semite and I don't share the beliefs of the FPM...
But back to the OP - do you think that the right to free speech is outdated and should be outlawed altogether?
aranthus
(3,386 posts)In fact, you've got it backwards. The reason that BDS attracts antisemites is because it is antisemitic at its core. Suppose you are not an antisemite? Does that change the nature of the movement just because you're not antisemitic? Of course it doesn't. You are one person. What you think of the movement doesn't really matter as far as the movement is concerned. What matters is what the leadership of the movement believe, and how they lead. BDS was formed by the Palestinians as a weapon to use against Israel's existence. That's why the movement calls for implementation of Right of Return. Until that changes, then the movement is antisemitic. Does that mean that everyone who supports BDS is antisemitc? Not necessarily. It does mean that they support an antisemitic movement, either with or without knowledge of the true nature of BDS. But you don't really have the excuse that you don't know, because it has been explained to you ad nauseum.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)And I don't think that allowing Palestinians to return to their ancestral homeland is anti-Semitic either.
I believe that every person should have equal rights in the land they live, and also that every person should have the right to live in their ancestral homeland - those beliefs are not anti-Semitic...
shira
(30,109 posts)You can't even name one popular Palestinian - a leader you identify with, someone you admire - which shows the danger of Palestinian right of return. You know how that would lead to more strife, more terror, killing.
If you can't identify or support even one Palestinian whose views you agree with - why would you expect Israelis to embrace millions of people you wouldn't want to engage with? In effect as well as intent (since it's been proven to you ad nauseum) you support a situation that endangers Jews both within Israel and outside it. If Jews lose control of Israel, we truly have nowhere to go to be safe.
And that's why BDS is considered antisemitic at its core.
Now how are we wrong?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)There's nothing that says that Israel won't be able to build housing and provide jobs for future immigrants of Palestinian descent.