Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe Israeli Right still hasn't internalized that Palestinians exist
Arabs are more present than ever in the Israeli public sphere, but attempts to marginalize them are growing at an even faster pace. A new law aimed at pushing Arab representatives out of the political system could wind up changing the rules of the game in the worst possible way.By Noam Sheizaf
Published July 21, 2016
The Knesset this week passed a law that will enable it to expel Arab MKs from their positions as elected representatives. The same day, a storm erupted over a program on Army Radio that examined a poem by Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish. Both events have one thing in common: they highlight Israeli right wings hopeless desire to make the countrys pesky Palestinian population simply disappear. Thats no easy task considering that proportionally speaking, there are more Arab citizens in Israel than African Americans or Hispanic Americans in the United States. And can anybody even imagine a U.S. without them?
Those on the right in Israel will tell you that they dont oppose the Arabs themselves, just their ideas. That is, of course, feigned naïveté. As long as Israel is defined as a Jewish state, Arabs will always feel alienated from it. An Arab can become Israeli like he or she can become German or American, but he cannot become Jewish, which Israeli Jews wouldnt want either. Thats the fundamental difference between the Israeli model and the Western democratic model, where even if there sometimes exist symbols of Christianity or some other nation, Western democracies are ultimately based on the idea of a state of all its citizens. In Israel, that idea is so terrifying to people that some want to criminalize even advocating for it.
And yet despite this unusual model, Israel has managed to maintain a mostly democratic system within its pre-1967 borders (though never a liberal one). It worked, somehow, because of the pragmatic attitude adopted by both the Jewish majority and the Palestinian minority that survived 1948. For example, the unwritten compromise according to which Palestinians can vote and be elected, even if they oppose quite naturally the very idea of a Jewish state. Or that a Palestinian poet can be canonized even if, among other things, he wrote poems that portray Jews as the enemy, just as Israeli poets who saw Arabs as enemies enjoy an even more sacred stature.
What made it work was the separation that existed between the realm of culture and narrative, in which each nation holds on to their self-defined image of the world sometimes to the extreme and the tangible realm of actions, in which we all live together with various compromises and sometimes just by looking the other way. For the new Israeli Right, however, that isnt enough. For them, the Jewish state needs to be completely Jewish in its culture, Jewish in its allocation of resources, Jewish in its political discourse, and so on. To be fair, thats the spirit of the moment everywhere we are living in an era that loves absolute justice, especially in the cultural sphere, and which scorns compromise. Among other reasons, that can also explain the rise of the nationalist Right across the globe.
Continue reading @
http://972mag.com/the-israeli-rights-palestinian-delusion/120791/
shira
(30,109 posts)Bunch of kooks.
"Live wherever you like, but don't live among us. Die wherever you like, but don't die among us."
-Mahmoud Darwish
Sounds like he was the hateful rightwinger.
Another dumb article by +972.
The defense minister admonishes Army Radio chief for a program about the poet, Mahmoud Darwish, broadcast by the station.
Gili Cohen Jul 21, 2016
Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman on Thursday compared Army Radio's broadcast of a program about Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish with "glorification of the literary marvels of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf."
Lieberman, as quoted by a ministry statement from a meeting with the radio's chief, Yaron Dekel, said the station's main role was to "strengthen social solidarity and not to widen social rifts."
Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman has summoned Army Radio chief Yaron Dekel over the broadcast Tuesday night about Darwish. The program was part of a series on formative Israeli texts in the stations University on the Air program.
Lieberman asserted that "there is no intervention on the part of politicians in the programs broadcast on Army radio," the ministry statement said. Attorney General Avichai Mendelblit phoned Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman late Wednesday to remind him he has no authority to intervene in Army Radios programming.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.732504
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Diversity is important in a democratic state, but it's seen as a political danger by the right-wing.
shira
(30,109 posts)As well as their anti-Zionist supporters within the BDS movement, Mondoweiss, etc...
It doesn't really get more fascist than that.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Not even a little bit?
Lieberman Was Involved in Radical Right Kach Movement
Source: Haaretz, Feb 04, 2009
Former Kach secretary general Yossi Dayan said he issued Lieberman, a prime ministerial candidate whose current electoral campaign against Israeli Arabs has provoked outrage, with a party membership card when he was still a new immigrant to Israel.
"I don't recall to what extent he was active in the movement, but if he denies [this], I am ready to testify in any forum that Lieberman was indeed a member for a short amount of time," said Dayan.
Kach was banned from the 1988 Knesset elections for inciting to racism.
Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/lieberman-was-involved-in-radical-right-kach-movement-1.269330
Anyway, do you think Arab Israeli culture has the right to exist, even if it doesn't promote a Zionist narrative?
shira
(30,109 posts)The Kahane movement is practically dead. No one advocates on their behalf. Similar to the KKK.
Hamas is the present, Hamas is right now, with all their regressive fascist Left & far Right supporters who want Jews dead.
Of course Arab Israeli culture has the right to exist.
But what is this culture if it doesn't promote a Zionist narrative? Can you define it?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I think that Lieberman is a fascist - every time he opens his mouth confirms it.
Apart from Hamas and BDS, which incidentally has nothing to do with the OP, I would say that Mahmoud Darwish is an example of Israeli Arab culture that doesn't promote a Zionist narrative. The problem for me is that I still think that Israel should act like a democratic state and treat all the different narratives of its multi-ethnic population equally. The current Israeli government doesn't do that, to put it mildly.
By the way, the Hamas must be destroyed thing that you put in every post makes them a bit difficult to interpret.
shira
(30,109 posts)Why don't you briefly describe what a fascist looks like, what they believe, what they do...? Be specific please.
If the narrative is that Israel has no right to exist, Jews are strangers in their own land & not a people worthy of self-determination, that terror against innocent random Jews is legitimate......then that's not something to be respected at all.
Israeli
(4,306 posts)Accusing Darwish of incitement to terror is grotesque and it is the new commissars of Israeli culture who are the ones doing most of the damage to Israel.
Haaretz Editorial Jul 21, 2016
The Army Radio program University on the Air that was devoted to Darwish brought down the wrath of the new commissars of Israeli culture, the muzzlers of free expression: Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman and Culture and Sports Minister Miri Regev. The pair launched an unbridled and ignorant assault on Darwish and on Army Radio, which dared to present his poetry. Yesterday the head of Army Radio, Yaron Dekel, was even summoned to Liebermans office for a scolding. Lieberman told him that to devote a program to Darwish was like praising the literary quality of Mein Kampf on the air.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.732683
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)and that the government has the right to suppress cultural expressions that don't conform to their worldview. A democratic government should be democratic for all its citizens, not only the majority. This particular issue is about Israeli Arabs, but it happens everywhere when racist right-wingers are given political power.
Israeli
(4,306 posts)....." A democratic government should be democratic for all its citizens, not only the majority."..............................its why I am a post zionist .
Have a read of this ......
Summary
Israeli Ministers Miri Regev and Avigdor Liberman have attacked Army Radio over a broadcast featuring Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish, even though his poetry is taught in Israeli schools.
Author Shlomi Eldar
Posted July 21, 2016
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/mahmoud-darwish-avigdor-liberman-miri-regev-poetry-arabic.html#ixzz4FDQJ6PJe
I dont put Darwishs books on the shelf of Arab writers, said Someck. I put them on the shelf of Israeli authors. Darwish was influenced by Israeli poet Yehuda Amichai. He was very familiar with Jewish poet Hayim Nahman Bialiks poetry and was friendly with many Israeli writers and poets. If you want to get to know and understand your neighbor and the other in your home, you must learn his or her language and literature.
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/mahmoud-darwish-avigdor-liberman-miri-regev-poetry-arabic.html#ixzz4FDSC8jUG
TubbersUK
(1,441 posts)FBaggins
(27,738 posts)The law says that if an MK is expelled, the MK is replaced by the next person on that party's list.
They can't honestly claim that the law is an attempt to get Arab representation out of the political system if any Arab MK that gets expelled is automatically replaced with another Arab MK.
shira
(30,109 posts)FBaggins
(27,738 posts)Any object look at the history of the region will make clear that there is one side in this generations-old conflict that has a significant proportion of their population suffering from an inability to accept that the other side even exists... and who would be happy to wipe them off the map entirely...
... but it isn't the Israelis.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)As it is now, this kind of law doesn't exist in any other democratic country than Israel simply because it's seen as fundamentally undemocratic to vote out opposition politicians from the legislative body. I personally don't see how removing Arab MKs or threatening to remove them if they continue to represent their voters will make Israel more democratic...
FBaggins
(27,738 posts)We just discussed this a couple days ago. You mistakenly claimed that there were no democracies with similar laws (except maybe Russia or Iran ) and then had pointed out three obvious ones (the US, UK, and Canada)
You tried desperately to spin that they were entirely different because in this case the purpose of the rule is different (it isn't, but it wouldn't matter in the least if it was)... but did you expect anyone to buy that? If a state wants to set their speed limit at 65 mph and you claim that nobody has a speed limit that low... will you be able to spin away the error because all of the states with similar or lower speed limits set them for safety reasons and this state is doing it to reduce carbon emissions?
Of course that would be nonsensical. All three major democracies that we discussed have "similar laws" (i.e., Constitution, rules of the legislature, etc.) that have much lower thresholds.
I personally don't see how removing Arab MKs or threatening to remove them if they continue to represent their voters will make Israel more democratic...
It doesn't have anything to do with making them more democratic or less. It allows them to keep criminals and traitors from holding on to seats in their national legislature. Kicking Bob Packwood out was not a decision to make the US more/less democratic.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)different political position, I can't help you.
As long as the rest of the civilized world, inluding the US, the UK, Italy and Canada knows the difference, it's OK anyway. The only place where it's not OK is Israel, where the Knesset can make a law to oust a politician for her political views.
6chars
(3,967 posts)if someone were to do that, for example
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I don't know how it works in Israel though, as it seems as if Israeli ministers are promoting violence without repercussions:
Lieberman: Disloyal Israeli Arabs Should Be Beheaded
Source: Haaretz, Mar 09, 2015
Israeli Arabs who are disloyal to the State of Israel should have their heads chopped off, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said at an elections conference at the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya this week.
Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/1.646076
Netanyahu appoints Ayelet Shakedwho called for genocide of Palestiniansas Justice Minister in new government
Source: Mondoweiss, May 6, 2015
During Israels summer 2014 attack on Gaza, MK Shaked essentially called for the genocide of Palestinians. In a Facebook post on July 1a day before Israeli extremists kidnapped Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khdeir and burned him alivethe lawmaker asserted that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy and called for its destruction, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.
Read more: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-palestinians-government/
I've limited myself to incitement to violence only, but members of the Israeli government are making racist comments all the time, which seems to be a normal thing to do for Israeli politicians.
6chars
(3,967 posts)I looked up what Shaked said. She quoted someone who, after the kidnapping and murder of three Jewish teens, said this was a war with the Palestinian people, which is not a good thing to say. But what she said was not what Mondoweiss printed or implied at all. She never called for destruction or genocide at all. This is a common technique of, well, you people. You people put a fantastical characterization over something, and then you people condemn someone for that characterization. You people could legitimately criticize what she actually said, but when Mondoweiss then creates a falseheadline (she called for genocide) you used that as a fact since it was reported in Mondoweiss.
Then when someone you people admire like Mahmoud Abbas say something such as ....
Al-Aksa is ours and so is the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. They [the Jews] have no right to desecrate them with their filthy feet. We wont allow them to do so and we will do whatever we can to defend Jerusalem Each drop of blood that was spilled in Jerusalem is pure blood as long as its for the sake of Allah. Every shahid (martyr) will be in heaven and every wounded person will be rewarded, by Allahs will. ... you people somehow find doubt that it means what it actually says, you people create a different fantastical characterization and find that that characterization is something that can be ignored.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Just for the heck of it, let's have a look at the excerpt she posted from an unpublished article by Uri Elitzur, and Shaked's own rebuttal of the criticism in Jerusalem Post. I know this is getting a little bit off-topic, but I think that it's worthwhile to show that it's the Israeli government that's the problem, not the Arab MKs who stand up against racism and injustice. This will be a lenghty read, but it will help in showing whether Shaked was indeed inciting to genocide or not:
Netanyahu appoints Ayelet Shakedwho called for genocide of Palestiniansas Justice Minister in new government
Source: Mondoweiss, May 6, 2015
(snip, translation of Shaked's FB post of July 1)
I dont know why its so hard for us to define reality with the simple words that language puts at our disposal. Why do we have to make up a new name for the war every other week, just to avoid calling it by its name. Whats so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy. A declaration of war is not a war crime. Responding with war certainly is not. Nor is the use of the word war, nor a clear definition who the enemy is. Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.
And the morality of war knows that it is not possible to refrain from hurting enemy civilians. It does not condemn the British air force, which bombed and totally destroyed the German city of Dresden, or the US planes that destroyed the cities of Poland and wrecked half of Budapest, places whose wretched residents had never done a thing to America, but which had to be destroyed in order to win the war against evil. The morals of war do not require that Russia be brought to trial, though it bombs and destroys towns and neighborhoods in Chechnya. It does not denounce the UN Peacekeeping Forces for killing hundreds of civilians in Angola, nor the NATO forces who bombed Milosevics Belgrade, a city with a million civilians, elderly, babies, women, and children. The morals of war accept as correct in principle, not only politically, what America has done in Afghanistan, including the massive bombing of populated places, including the creation of a refugee stream of hundreds of thousands of people who escaped the horrors of war, for thousands of whom there is no home to return to.
And in our war this is sevenfold more correct, because the enemy soldiers hide out among the population, and it is only through its support that they can fight. Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.
Read more: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-palestinians-government/
---
Exposing militant leftist propaganda
Source: Jerusalem Post, by AYELET SHAKED, 07/16/2014
(snip)
Let's start with my July 1 Facebook post. It was written some 12 years ago, but never published, by a dear man, the recently departed journalist Uri Elitzur. The gist of his article was that once one side in a war attacks the other side's civilians, they can no longer morally claim a special status for their own civilians.
Go ahead, ask a Hebrew speaking friend to translate it for you, they'll confirm this is what my Facebook post was about. But you'll find not a trace of that in Resnick's account. Perhaps it's his own ignorance of the Hebrew language. After all, he got the text from Electronic Intifada, a website dedicated to daily and hourly vilification of my country.
All Resnick had to do to make Elitzur's sober, legally minded discussion sound like a speech made by Hitler himself, was to cherry pick words out of context. A call for the indiscriminate killing of children is a terrible thing. But what if the statement was that any time you kill our children, you're exposing your own children to the same fate? Still unsettling, but rational when you consider that they purposely use their kids as human shields. It's not a call for indiscriminate murder.
And then Resnick turned to character assassination. He cited an attack on me by Haaretz. They said I was representative of an ideology unembarrassed by its racism.
Haaretz, unfortunately, may look like The New York Times, but it is far from being a liberal, curious newspaper in the Anglo Saxon tradition. Expecting Haaretz to write about a political opponent like myself in an honest, informativeif criticalmanner, is a little like expecting Gideon Resnick to offer an unbiased, honest citation from a pro-Zionist post.
Read more: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Exposing-militant-leftist-propaganda-363062
6chars
(3,967 posts)and you continue to play the sane game. the article does not call for genocide and does not call for destruction of infrastructure or elderly or children, as you and Mondoweiss say. this passage does say people who facilitate terrorism and who incite and who place flowers for terrorists are enemy combatants. "more little snakes" is about terrorists who the complicit Palestinians cultivate, as in the multi-terrorist family we were reintroduced to last month:
http://matzav.com/palestinian-authority-hails-terrorist-who-butchered-hallel-yaffa-ariel-hyd-blames-occupation-for-his-death/
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Perhaps we see things differently, but I see this post as calling members of an ethnic group snakes and promoting killing them. I have a problem with that.
I think it'll be difficult to find something that Arab MKs have done or said that would top Lieberman or Shaked. One may wonder if Arab MKs are targeted because they're Arabs and nothing else...
And I don't feel that alleged Palestinian incitement is relevant to an Israeli issue - true or not...
6chars
(3,967 posts)it is true, the terrorists are members of a particular ethnic group, but what make them worthy of being called snakes is that they murder people, not at all that they are members of an ethnic group. some do not think murder is ok even if it is done by people of that ethnic group.
FBaggins
(27,738 posts)Italy added such a rule in their Senate in 2012 and then expelled Berlusconi in 2013.
Some in his party claimed that the rule was changed just to get rid of a "center-right" politician of such significance.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-berlusconi-idUSBRE9930ER20131004
Israeli
(4,306 posts)Its called "the Zoabi bill" over here ...........and its much more complicated than your simple explanation of calling us all liars .
Try reading this :
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/israel-arab-knesset-member-zoabi-on-her-way-out-new-bill.html
FBaggins
(27,738 posts)They have an MK whose behavior has been way over any reasonable line and they found that the most that could be done was suspend her for a few months because their rules lack the ability to expel a member the way that many democracies allow. So they're adding that rule (just like the UK just recently added it for their House of Lords).
That isn't that complicated... and it certainly isn't evidence that some Israelis can't accept the existence of Palestinians. It's one extreme MK who should not be a member... which is precisely what the link that you provided says. Even her own party recognizes that she's a disgrace and should not be a member.
...snip...
Publicly, most of the Joint Lists Knesset members and activists argue that the suspension bill is racist legislation directed against them by the right in Israel and especially by the prime minister. But in conversations with Al-Monitor, they also admit that Zoabi has brought this on herself and tragically on them as well. Some even express relief and joy that the Zoabi albatross will soon be removed from around their necks.
Israeli
(4,306 posts)...........wow progress !!
You managed to read an article without calling Shlomi Eldar ( a Leftist journalist ) and Al Monitor
nonsense and liars .......congratulations
TubbersUK
(1,441 posts)Have I got that right?
If so, are there any checks and balances on that ? Because under the UK legislation voters decide - moreover, there are basically 2 opportunities for the voters to make that decision.
UK Recall of MPs Act 2015 - main provisions:
Parliament may invoke it in the event of an MP being convicted of criminal offence resulting in a jail term or if an MP has been suspended for 10 working days or more or if guilty of an expenses fraud.
A petition is then opened and if 10% of the MPs constituency electorate sign it, expulsion will occur
The expelled MP may stand for re-election in the resulting by-election if he/she wishes to do so
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/184324/Recall-Act-Factsheet.pdf
which an MP will lose their seat in
the House of Commons if a petition
to recall them is successful.
FBaggins
(27,738 posts)The UK has both.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-information-office/g06.pdf
The Commons' ultimate power of discipline over
one of its own Members is expulsion, thereby
creating a vacancy and subsequent by-election in
that Member's constituency.
TubbersUK
(1,441 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 24, 2016, 08:41 PM - Edit history (6)
To the best of my knowledge, expulsion under House Rules (as opposed to the 2015 Act) relates to criminal convictions & corruption. A total of 3 MPs were expelled under House Rules in the whole of the 2Oth Century.
In any case, if not currently in prison for more than a year, an expelled MP who thinks he/she has been treated unfairly may ask the voters to decide by standing for re-election.
House of Commons Information Office
Disciplinary and Penal
Powers of the House
House to remove those it considers unfit for membership. Members in the past have been
expelled for such crimes as perjury, forgery, fraud and corruption.
Parliament that elected him, a principle established in 1782 as a result of the case of John
Wilkes, who was expelled three times and once had his return amended in favour of his defeated
opponent.
Horatio Bottomley (Independent, South Hackney), was expelled in August 1922, after being
convicted of fraudulent conversion of property and sentenced to seven years' imprisonment.
Garry Allighan (Labour, Gravesend) was expelled on 30 October 1947, for lying to a committee
and for gross contempt of the House after publication of an article in the World's Press News
accusing Members of insobriety and of taking fees or bribes for the supply of information.
Peter Baker (Conservative, South Norfolk) was expelled on 16 December 1954, after being
sentenced to seven years' imprisonment for forgery.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-information-office/g06.pdf