Israel/Palestine

Israeli

(4,300 posts) Thu Sep 1, 2016, 02:08 AM Sep 2016

What the Hebron Shooter's Trial Is Really All About

A testimony at the trial of Elor Azaria, the soldier who killed a subdued Palestinian assailant in Hebron, reveals that the real battle taking place isn't about the army's values.

Zvi Bar'el Aug 30, 2016

Eliyahu Liebman’s title, security officer of Hebron’s Jewish community, is misleading. Liebman — who testified in the defense of Elor Azaria in a trial that has come to symbolize the struggle between the right and the left, the army and the settlers, the chief of staff and the ousted defense minister on one hand and the prime minister and certain cabinet members on the other hand — represents a nation. The nation of the settlers, which has placed itself as a fortified wall against principles the army purports to uphold.

This nation has a diaspora, the State of Israel. Liebman is part of a dynasty that, to many, represents the core of the settlement movement. His father, Rabbi Menachem Liebman, was among the founders of Kiryat Arba, and he stood with Rabbi Moshe Levinger in the center of Hebron and urged soldiers to refuse the “illegal orders” to remove settlers from the city center and from Avraham Avinu Synagogue. His brother Yehuda was one of the founders of Yitzhar. His brother Shlomo was killed in a terror attack in that settlement. His brother David, from the settlement of Tapuah, was part of the “new Jewish underground” that was active in 2003 and was suspected of murdering nine Palestinians.

In his testimony, Liebman castigated the defense minister and assailed the military prosecutor. Yet he was awarded a commendation by the chief of staff for his initiative and actions during a terror attack on Worshiper’s Way in Hebron. Twelve Israelis died in the attack, including Col. Dror Weinberg.

The Liebmans represent the destructive symbiosis between the Israel Defense Forces and the settlers — a symbiosis that has resulted in repeated concessions to settlement leaders, long before the advent of the “hilltop youth.”

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.739452

26 replies

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Highlight:

What the Hebron Shooter's Trial Is Really All About (Original Post) Israeli Sep 2016 OP

It always goes back to the occupation - it's easier for the IDF to maintain moral standards if the Little Tich Sep 2016 #1

Should Jews be allowed to live in Hebron? oberliner Sep 2016 #2

The question is hypothetical - the two-state solution is dead. Little Tich Sep 2016 #3

The two-state solution is the only solution oberliner Sep 2016 #4

I thought you were a proponent of the Geneva initiative? Little Tich Sep 2016 #5

Absolutely oberliner Sep 2016 #6

Sometimes the problem is the solution. Little Tich Sep 2016 #7

Not in this case oberliner Sep 2016 #8

The problem is a racist policy of no Jews in the W.Bank or Gaza. shira Sep 2016 #10

The problem is that you can't have settlements and a two-state solution at the same time. Little Tich Sep 2016 #12

Sure you can, if Jews are considered human & worthy of being Palestinian citizens. shira Sep 2016 #17

I don't believe in miracles. Little Tich Sep 2016 #19

It's not the settlements, so be honest. You'd be against the '47 Partition Plan too. shira Sep 2016 #21

I'm sorry for not being dumb enough to believe that a Palestinian state will magically appear Little Tich Sep 2016 #23

Seriously - you'd have rejected the '47 Partition Plan too. So enough of the BS. shira Sep 2016 #24

Always , always goes back to the occupation Little Tich... Israeli Sep 2016 #9

If I was an Israeli citizen, I wouldn't hesitate to serve in the IDF. Little Tich Sep 2016 #13

If you were an Israeli citizen ..... Israeli Sep 2016 #15

With regard to .......... Israeli Sep 2016 #16

I know all that, and I still wouldn't hesitate to serve. Little Tich Sep 2016 #18

Most of us know that too .... Israeli Sep 2016 #22

With regard to ..... Israeli Sep 2016 #25

It's a bit ironic that the IDF is primarily an occupation force. Little Tich Sep 2016 #26

At what cost to end the occupation? Peace won't result from an end to occupation.... shira Sep 2016 #11

What makes you believe that Israel would ever pull out of the occupied territories? Little Tich Sep 2016 #14

thought experiment 6chars Sep 2016 #20

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

1. It always goes back to the occupation - it's easier for the IDF to maintain moral standards if the

Reply to Israeli (Original post)

Thu Sep 1, 2016, 11:22 PM

Sep 2016

enemies aren't civilians.

The occupation and the settlers who promote it are driving the IDF in the wrong direction. Is the IDF a defense force or an occupation force?

oberliner

(58,724 posts)

2. Should Jews be allowed to live in Hebron?

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 3, 2016, 09:40 PM

Sep 2016

Or should it be Jew free?

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

3. The question is hypothetical - the two-state solution is dead.

Reply to oberliner (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 3, 2016, 11:09 PM

Sep 2016

In the bi-national state, there's no more reason to evict them than there is for evicting any of the other 600.000 settlers.

oberliner

(58,724 posts)

4. The two-state solution is the only solution

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 4, 2016, 06:27 AM

Sep 2016

And it is favored by a majority of both Israelis and Palestinians.

Edit to add: There has to be a way for Jews to co-exist in Hebron with the Palestinians who live there. Obviously, the system that exists now is not it.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

5. I thought you were a proponent of the Geneva initiative?

Reply to oberliner (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 4, 2016, 08:17 PM

Sep 2016

Hebron isn't even on the list of settlements to be allowed stay - I think. However, as the Geneva Initiative have no real maps or information about which settlements are to evacuated, it's difficult to tell...

oberliner

(58,724 posts)

6. Absolutely

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 4, 2016, 09:47 PM

Sep 2016

Which presents a two-state solution.

The settlement in Hebron should not be allowed to stay. That's why I wrote in my response to your post that the system that exists now is not OK.

I would hope that a two-state solution would allow for Jewish people who wish to live in Hebron to do so under Palestinian jurisdiction.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

7. Sometimes the problem is the solution.

Reply to oberliner (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 4, 2016, 10:14 PM

Sep 2016

The problem is 600.000 settlers who make a two-state solution impossible. The solution is to let them stay.

oberliner

(58,724 posts)

8. Not in this case

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 4, 2016, 10:38 PM

Sep 2016

Remember when Yugoslavia broke up into separate countries?

The Palestinians have their own national identity that is separate from that of the Israelis.

Look now at Syria for instance - or Iraq.

But, anyway, this is an old argument that we've had before and we aren't going to agree or convince one another.

shira

(30,109 posts)

10. The problem is a racist policy of no Jews in the W.Bank or Gaza.

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #7)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 01:08 PM

Sep 2016

This conflict could be resolved rather quickly if the PA/Hamas would accept Jews & protect them as Palestinian citizens with equal rights in a 2-state solution. Unfortunately they're racists, as are their BDS "friends".

No peace can be made with the racists of PA/Hamas who want Jews expelled from the river to the sea (at best) or dead (at worst).

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

12. The problem is that you can't have settlements and a two-state solution at the same time.

Reply to shira (Reply #10)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 08:23 PM

Sep 2016

This is a conclusion I've reached after looking at maps and reading a lot of reports from the UN, the World Bank, the French government and many others - which all basically say the same thing - the settlements make a Palestinian state impossible. While I believe that the conflict can and will be resolved, the only possible outcome is the one-state solution. This doesn't mean that I'm a promoter of the one-state solution - I just recognize the fact that the settlements can't be removed.

If you think that the one-state solution can be avoided, please tell me how, because I would like to know...

shira

(30,109 posts)

17. Sure you can, if Jews are considered human & worthy of being Palestinian citizens.

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 05:40 AM

Sep 2016

But for some reason you defend the racists running the PA/Hamas for wanting all Jews expelled from the land or killed.

The 1-state solution can easily be avoided by redrawing borders. If the Palestinians sincerely want their own sovereign state alongside Israel in peace, they'd agree to pretty much any borders equating to 100% of the pre-1967 lines. No other nation wanting sovereignty so badly would have rejected all the offers Israel has made.

Be honest.

You're against the 1947 Partition Plan, so you're obviously against any 2-state solution.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

19. I don't believe in miracles.

Reply to shira (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 11:06 PM

Sep 2016

If the current Palestinian economy is completely non-viable, and it's mainly because of the settlements strangling the Palestinian economy by preventing a functional infrastructure, access to resources, contiguity and a reliable flow of goods and people, then I don't understand how redrawing the borders without removing the settlements will magically create a viable Palestinian state.

shira

(30,109 posts)

21. It's not the settlements, so be honest. You'd be against the '47 Partition Plan too.

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #19)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 05:18 AM

Sep 2016

Who are you trying to kid?

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

23. I'm sorry for not being dumb enough to believe that a Palestinian state will magically appear

Reply to shira (Reply #21)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 08:22 PM

Sep 2016

if only the Palestinians accepted what they were offered. If you showed me a plan for a viable Palestinian state that actually worked, fair or unfair - I would support it.

There's no use in pretending that it's my or Palestinian attitudes towards Israel that's the obstacle to a viable Palestinian state. A Palestinian state is physically impossible for a lot of reasons, none of which seems to be able to change.

shira

(30,109 posts)

24. Seriously - you'd have rejected the '47 Partition Plan too. So enough of the BS.

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #23)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 08:41 PM

Sep 2016

You admitted it was insane.

As for settlements now, Abbas has already agreed to land swaps. Your position is more extreme than Abbas'. In fact it's closer to that of Hamas.

Israeli

(4,300 posts)

9. Always , always goes back to the occupation Little Tich...

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 08:49 AM

Sep 2016

.................no argument with me there .

Quote : " The occupation and the settlers who promote it are driving the IDF in the wrong direction. "

100% agree .

Quote : " Is the IDF a defense force or an occupation force? "

Very good question ......its both .

For more in depth analysis I would suggest reading here : ...

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1472915025/

Some time ago, Israeli TV showed a documentary called "The Doorkeepers", in which all the living ex-chiefs of the Shin-Bet and the Mossad were asked about the solutions to the conflict.

All of them, with different levels of intensity, advocated peace based on the "two-state solution". They expressed their opinion that there will be no peace unless the Palestinians achieve a national state of their own.

Also here : ...

http://972mag.com/born-again-peaceniks-how-ex-idf-generals-clean-their-conscience/121724/

For years they have served in high-ranking positions in the Israeli army, taking part in the most violent aspects of the occupation. Only once they leave do they suddenly discover that, perhaps, military rule isn’t such a great idea.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

13. If I was an Israeli citizen, I wouldn't hesitate to serve in the IDF.

Reply to Israeli (Reply #9)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 09:34 PM

Sep 2016

I would still think that baby-sitting settlers or terrorizing Palestinians would be a waste of time and counterproductive towards the supposed goal of actually protecting the country.

I don't have to be Captain Hindsight to know that all those old-timers are right.

Israeli

(4,300 posts)

15. If you were an Israeli citizen .....

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 04:06 AM

Sep 2016

.........you would not have much of a choice .

Refusal to serve is always an option .....but a decision that will affect the quality of your life here until the grave ....not one to be taken lightly .

Israeli

(4,300 posts)

16. With regard to ..........

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 05:34 AM

Sep 2016

quote : " I would still think that baby-sitting settlers or terrorizing Palestinians would be a waste of time and counterproductive towards the supposed goal of actually protecting the country. "

Once your in the IDF your not supposed to think politically .........its verboten .
And once again .....what choice do you have ?

Back to the OP ....

http://972mag.com/a-once-in-a-decade-show-trial/121768/

Want to put a soldier on trial once every 10 years? Go ahead. Between each show trial, just make sure to remember who is actually responsible: those who sent the soldiers to rule over human beings and who contrived a reality in which 19-year-olds shoot 20-year-olds in the head with the knowledge that 99 percent of the time they won’t even be reprimanded. It is for this overall reality that individual soldiers in the field need not answer, but rather the Military Advocate General, chief of General Staff, and successive ministers of defense.

For that reason, statements we’ve seen from the likes of Liberman and Netanyahu are the epitome of hypocrisy. They want to protect the soldiers? Seriously? Instead they hide behind the soldiers’ and deny their own responsibility, all with the knowledge that there is zero chance they will ever have to face justice themselves.

I don’t know how Sgt. Azaria’s trial will end, but a show trial of a non-commissioned officer is a rather marginal episode in a reality of systemic state violence against a civilian population with no political representation, rights or protection. From behind a mask of lies they warn us that if Azaria isn’t convicted, the army will turn into a street gang. That’s an interesting semantic choice: if so, why aren’t the gang leaders sitting on the defendant’s bench alongside their sergeant?

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

18. I know all that, and I still wouldn't hesitate to serve.

Reply to Israeli (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 08:18 PM

Sep 2016

Some things just have to be done, even if you're a bit squeamish about it.

Anyway, the OP: I'm quite sure that the ICC is looking closely at how Israel deals with this case, and will weigh it into their assessment whether the Israeli is able to investigate itself or not. If it's just a show trial, it will have consequences.

Israeli

(4,300 posts)

22. Most of us know that too ....

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #18)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 05:30 AM

Sep 2016

.........and still dont hesitate to serve.

Those of us that are " squeamish about it " pay a price for their conscience Little Tich.....but they are a small minority .

Forget about the ICC .....this trial already has had consequences that have shaken the IDF central command and the defense ministry .....to its core .

Israeli

(4,300 posts)

25. With regard to .....

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #13)

Sat Sep 10, 2016, 03:46 AM

Sep 2016

Quote : " I would still think that baby-sitting settlers or terrorizing Palestinians would be a waste of time and counterproductive towards the supposed goal of actually protecting the country. " .........

Great example for you .........

Bisected by a Jews-only Road, a Palestinian Neighborhood in Hebron Is Dying

The heavily-armed elite IDF soldiers tasked with ensuring that Aref Jaber doesn't expand his house bravely leap into action when faced with any security threat, be it a child or a camera crew. The house has been declared a closed military zone, they say.

Gideon Levy and Alex Levac Sep 10, 2016

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.740971

This whole nutty scene was played out because a settler from the Tel Rumeida area nearby had called in the army’s Civil Administration authorities, who then forbid construction of the additional floor. It’s the occupation at its most ludicrous.

In these conditions, in which the only vehicles that pass through this Palestinian quarter are those of the Jewish settlers and the IDF, the neighborhood is slowly dying, just as the settlers wish: It was their brutality that brought about the street’s closure in the first place.

Jaber is an official in the Palestinian Authority, a social activist in the neighborhood and also a volunteer in the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem. He appeared as a witness in the trial of Elor Azaria, the soldier who shot to death the wounded and incapacitated Palestinian in Hebron last March: Jaber was the one who photographed the handshake between Azaria and the ultranationalist Hebron resident Baruch Marzel after the shooting.

“We are not only living under occupation, we are living under the most extreme conditions,” Jaber says, referring to the Hebron settlers, who make the lives of the neighborhood residents hell.
“The soldiers,” he adds, “are usually nice. They come from Tel Aviv and sometimes they say they are sorry for what they are doing but that they have no choice because the settlers rule here. Baruch Marzel and Ofer Ohana, and Haim and Bentzi, too – I know them all. The settlers want to expel us from here, and say so: Hebron belongs to the Jews only.”

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

26. It's a bit ironic that the IDF is primarily an occupation force.

Reply to Israeli (Reply #25)

Sat Sep 10, 2016, 09:24 PM

Sep 2016

I'm not so sure that the Palestinians in Hebron appreciate the irony though...

shira

(30,109 posts)

11. At what cost to end the occupation? Peace won't result from an end to occupation....

Reply to Little Tich (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 01:14 PM

Sep 2016

If history is any indication, an IDF pullout from the W.Bank with all settlers will just result in what we see in Gaza. It could even be worse as ISIS or Iran takes over.

The problem is that Israel haters deny any security threat to the Jews of Israel, which IMO is worse than Holocaust Denial given the real serious threat Jews face with Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, Iran, etc... living practically across the street from them in East/West Jerusalem.

Tell me Tich, what's your plan B if Israel pulls out and it's a disaster with Hamas or worse taking control of the W.Bank? How many dead people on both sides would make you consider that an IDF pullout from the W.Bank is a bad idea? 10's of thousands dead? 100,000? 250,000?

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

14. What makes you believe that Israel would ever pull out of the occupied territories?

Reply to shira (Reply #11)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 09:39 PM

Sep 2016

Israel has built itself into a corner with no way out of the occupied territories. It's time for Israel to make lemonade with the lemons it gave itself.

6chars

(3,967 posts)

20. thought experiment

Reply to Israeli (Original post)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 05:07 AM

Sep 2016

If the Palestinian leadership had accepted one of Israel's peace proposals, and then used their education system and bully pulpit to foster a message of co-existence, worked to build economic partnerships -- especially but not only with Israel -- that would benefit their people, built upon the greenhouses of Gaza and otherwise focused financial and material resources (such as concrete, steel) on building rather than on tunnels, what would their GDP be today? My guess is about 2000% higher, no exaggeration.

lol?

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