Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe singe state solution.
A Secular Democracy that insures equal rights for everyone regardless of religion. One person one vote. Every person with the same rights and protections by law.
There are plenty of examples that exist in the world.
Walleye
(35,686 posts)In my mind, if you believe in democracy, you have to embrace it
multigraincracker
(34,093 posts)from the River to the Sea.
JohnSJ
(96,551 posts)pushed to destroy Israel and the entire area of Jews.
Also, both the PA and Hamas are authoritarian regimes that have not had elections for years, and have been criticized for human rights abuses, and cracking down against any dissent against its rule.
When Hamas took complete control of the Gaza Strip, it declared the "end of secularism in the Gaza Strip".
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/12/hamas-israel-religious-organization/676303/
multigraincracker
(34,093 posts)with equality for all would solve all of that for both sides. It works here. The largest religious franchise in the the US is the Roman Catholic Church yet this is not a RC Nation and every person has equal rights regardless of religion. Everyone has the same protections. We get along much better than they do now.
JohnSJ
(96,551 posts)Israel. Hamas or the Palestinian Authority have never been secular, and Hamas has explicitly called for the eradication of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state under its rule.
If any solution will be sound it will be a two state solution, with a security zone between.them.
RandomNumbers
(18,153 posts)Yes, you added, "regardless of religion". First of all, there are a bunch of people in red hats working REALLY HARD to change that, explicitly. Some of us would argue that in many places or in many contexts, this is certainly not true now and never was.
Sure I guess it didn't matter what religion you were as a woman in 1970, no matter what, you could not have a credit card in your own name. Sure, in 2024 in some states, you are just as dead if your wanted pregnancy goes wrong, regardless of your religion (but if you have enough money, probably not, because you can afford to go some place where you are allowed to live).
Don't forget that many arguments about slavery claim that the Bible actually supports the owning of other human beings as property.
Sorry, I do understand the point you are trying to make, but the problem with secular democracy anywhere is that you have a bunch of non-secular actors in power who will screw it up. Sometimes even while trying to claim exactly what you did that oh, "every person has the same rights regardless of religion" (wink, wink).
You are correct in theory. I don't see it working here and I sure as hell don't see it working there.
multigraincracker
(34,093 posts)Our Constitution works to even it out. Not perfect, but much better than being ruled by one religion. Which non-Democratic Secular country would be better than this?
Putting people above Gods is the only fair way to govern everyone. Then folks have a choice and not forced to follow the nut cases like the Red Hats. Wars and persecution seem to be a result of fundamental religion. Just to be fair.
Richard D
(9,354 posts)One person, one vote. That sounds like a good idea, but we have seen what has happened to the population of Jews in neighboring countries, From tens of thousands to a small handful to none.
There would be nothing stopping an Arabic majority from voting in Sharia law, voting to evict the Jews, changing the name from Israel to Palestine, and a lot more. Israel would go from the only Jewish state the world has ever seen to yet another Arabic Middle Eastern country. You must look at human rights in Gaza to know that won't turn out well.
Right now, the Arabic population is around 20% of Israel. That works really well; they live together with Jews and Christians in relative harmony.
Added: I do not think most people realize how small Israel is. San Bernadino County in California is much larger. And it is smaller than Rhode Island and Hawaii. You can drive from one end to the other in hours.
aranthus
(3,386 posts)This isn't a religious confilct per se, although the Arabs are driven in part by Islamist ideas. It's a national conflict between Arabs and Jews. In particular it's about the Arabs trying to deny the Jews a country.
To that end, the Arabs don't want a secular democratic state. They want a state with an Arab majority. That is what the so called "Right of Return" is about
PufPuf23
(9,233 posts)Thought a unitary secular and egalitarian state was required to foster the I-Thou relationship between individuals.
Problem now is the most extreme rightwing government ever in Israel that is ham-handed and causing long term harm to Israel with transparent tactics. Netanyahu et al are gambling on writing history.
POTUS Biden is in a tight spot and, in my case, the oxygen in the room.