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moniss

(6,125 posts)
Thu Aug 29, 2024, 03:54 PM Aug 2024

An Israeli freed from Gaza returns to a Bedouin village targeted for demolition

This is the headline from a story running on MSN.com that is sourced as originally from the L.A. Times. The recently freed hostage who is a Bedouin returned to his village to celebration of his return but it is perhaps only for a short while before there is no village. The bulldozers are coming and most of the villagers have received notices that their homes are to be destroyed.

While claims about the people having built in an environmental area without permits sounds plausible on it's face it should be noted that a human rights group in Israel, called B'Tselem, that monitors and reports on human rights activities in the Occupied Territories has noted that over the years one of the ways the right wing governments in Israel modified and restricted Palestinian land, building and development was to declare "nature areas" etc. and thereby deny building permits. Do we have something like that here? Given the treatment of the Bedouins over the many years it bears thought.

Speaking of B'Tselem I have a post I'm working on that uses some of their maps and narrative about mainly the West Bank and Jerusalem and how the various "measures" and "official policies" have morphed things tremendously. They do use some phrasing and words that can be considered "inflammatory" by some but that sort of thing is not the reason I'm working on that post. It is for the maps and the general visual sense and references of various results. In other words I am not putting it up in order to have a debate about "chicken and egg" attacks and counter attacks. It is solely for the purpose of getting a sense of the reality of what the physical installations etc. were pre-1967 by way of mapped representation and then how it changed in successive stages. I am not about the who or why. I am about showing by way of maps of the settlements, outposts, villages, camps, roads, barriers etc. how the changes have made the concept of the "2 State Solution" very difficult to contemplate going forward. It would take a massive amount of time and removal of what has been placed since 1967. I do not argue for or against it but I felt it would be informative for people to see the graphical representation of things on maps. Maybe if I'm not too lazy I'll get it done this weekend.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/an-israeli-freed-from-gaza-returns-to-a-bedouin-village-targeted-for-demolition/ar-AA1pEJRp

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An Israeli freed from Gaza returns to a Bedouin village targeted for demolition (Original Post) moniss Aug 2024 OP
Speaking of B'Tselem, there are myriad websites that show maps of the successive boundaries of Israel lapucelle Aug 2024 #1
Well the maps they show are put together with a moniss Aug 2024 #2
I've said it before: That doesn't work on me. lapucelle Aug 2024 #3
It is ridiculous any more moniss Aug 2024 #4
Sorry, but sources that babble about "the regime of Jewish supremacy" lapucelle Aug 2024 #5
Are you calling B'Tselem anti-Semitic ? Israeli Aug 2024 #6
Anyone who is comfortable with this, is comfortable with this. lapucelle Aug 2024 #7
Wow Israeli Aug 2024 #8
People are perfectly free to link to websites that amplify the musings of Candace Owens, lapucelle Aug 2024 #10
I dont understand Israeli Aug 2024 #11
Yes, well, thank you for acknowledging that you don't understand. lapucelle Aug 2024 #12
Once again .... Israeli Aug 2024 #13
You want maps Israeli Aug 2024 #9

lapucelle

(19,569 posts)
1. Speaking of B'Tselem, there are myriad websites that show maps of the successive boundaries of Israel
Thu Aug 29, 2024, 07:39 PM
Aug 2024

without including anti-Semitic tropes.


From B'Tselem's website:







moniss

(6,125 posts)
2. Well the maps they show are put together with a
Thu Aug 29, 2024, 11:55 PM
Aug 2024

scroll narrative on the left side that is convenient and covers the major event periods like Oslo, The Intifadas, Camp David etc. as separate periods spanning a range of years. As I said they have some language that is not any part of what I'm talking about but they have the maps well presented with the narrative periods. Sometimes factual and useful source material comes from places with a bias or objectionable viewpoint or phrasing. I point this out ahead of time when using that material for a factual reference so that a reader of my post would know ahead of time if they may not wish to see the potentially objectionable words and can be forewarned. I also note that content as not being a part of or reason why I am using the particular source material so that people don't think I'm endorsing or accepting something I'm not.

I would draw an analogy to William F Buckley Jr. and some of his completely reprehensible views and positions. While I could not abide much of what Buckley was about, if you listened to his show "Firing Line" and his debates/interviews with various guests of wide diversity on the political/social/historical/academic spectrum I could nonetheless come away from his program with some new factual references to historical events in foreign affairs etc. I would note the references and then investigate further and increase my base of knowledge about the events and be better able to formulate a position/conclusion about a policy proposal or better understand or agree/disagree with someone else's position/conclusion.

Would it be nice if the maps/narrative I'm referencing weren't from a site with objectionable language and references? Of course but these are a good basic reference in concise form broken down by phases of policy/agreements and in a scrolling format. So I take some of the OK from the "bad" and make the caveats ahead of time. It is only proper if I'm using source material from another site or publication that I provide the link to the originators for proper attribution. It also cuts down on having people not understand where a quote, picture, map etc. comes from and between the caveats and whatever stated purpose/narrative I've given for a post it should help the reader to understand that the material is for reference/information and is not for endorsing the entirety of a link or an organization.

As I said previously, my point in working on that future post is not to endorse or try to persuade anybody one way or the other about the concept of the "2 State Solution". It is to show graphically and with brief narrative the changes on the ground mainly in the West Bank and Jerusalem during each "phase" discussed and when viewed it should be informative to people who may be thinking that a "withdrawal" from the West Bank could be mainly a matter of withdrawing troops and dismantling a few settlements. If "withdrawal" is or becomes a part of a solution then people would be wise to understand from seeing things visually that this would not be anything like the Gaza withdrawal. A West Bank "withdrawal" would be a much more complicated and extensive matter and we're talking about negotiations of a far greater complexity than say a ceasefire or aid supply routes.

lapucelle

(19,569 posts)
3. I've said it before: That doesn't work on me.
Fri Aug 30, 2024, 05:48 AM
Aug 2024

Visuals manipulated to support an anti-Semitic narrative are as untrustworthy and agenda-driven as the anti-Semitic text on the website.

Any argument that portends, "Withdrawing from the West Bank is going to be so complicated that the final solution should be a single state solution" is insulting at its very best.



moniss

(6,125 posts)
4. It is ridiculous any more
Fri Aug 30, 2024, 06:26 AM
Aug 2024

to respond to anything you say. Nobody is trying to "work something on you". That is pompous to claim to begin with and impugns people who post here. And as to your portion in quotes I never said that and in fact went out of my way to make clear I am not advocating one way or the other and this is only for the purpose of seeing visually the changes over time. You are commenting about a post and material you haven't even seen yet.

But apparently in your mind the only information that is "acceptable" will be whatever comes from a source blessing every action ever taken by the Israeli government or the conservatives. I responded to your original comment out of courtesy to your concerns. But your response to me now follows a pattern I have seen of misquoting me and implying motive. I have been quite tolerant and generous in giving my time to respond over and over to your concerns. That has ended. It is now a matter of Rhett to Scarlett.

lapucelle

(19,569 posts)
5. Sorry, but sources that babble about "the regime of Jewish supremacy"
Fri Aug 30, 2024, 08:05 AM
Aug 2024

and supply *helpful maps with scrolling narratives* to support that claim are prima facie anti-Semitic.

They don't belong here.



Israeli

(4,310 posts)
6. Are you calling B'Tselem anti-Semitic ?
Sat Aug 31, 2024, 07:01 AM
Aug 2024

What about Gush Shalom and Peace Now , Breaking the Silence , Women in Black, The Parents Circle-Families Forum ,Ir Amim.......... etc etc etc

you are calling all of us on the Left that stand up for basic human rights anti semitic.

What about the parties we vote for ??

That would be Meretz and Avoda .....now united as one party called "The Democrats".

Here is our answer :

lapucelle

(19,569 posts)
7. Anyone who is comfortable with this, is comfortable with this.
Sat Aug 31, 2024, 08:54 AM
Aug 2024


========================


It's so interesting that your *answer* to your series of highly-speculative straw man inquiries is a 22 year old video from Democracy Now's Amy Goodman posted on the website of If Americans Knew.


Well, I guess I can look at the bright side.


At least I wasn't subjected to the random conspiracy-fueled musings of Glem Greenwald, Julian Assange, Candace Owens, and Briahna Joy Gray, and *news reports* from The Electic Intifada and Mondoweiss, all available on the If Americans Knew website.

==================================================


If you have any further highly-speculative straw man inquiries, please sea below.


lapucelle

(19,569 posts)
10. People are perfectly free to link to websites that amplify the musings of Candace Owens,
Sat Aug 31, 2024, 02:46 PM
Aug 2024

Glem Greenwald, Julian Assange, and Briahana Joy Gray

People are equally free to lash out when called out.



Israeli

(4,310 posts)
11. I dont understand
Sat Aug 31, 2024, 03:14 PM
Aug 2024

what you are talking about , with the exception of Julian Assange Ive never heard of
any of these people .

Do you know who Daphna Golan-Agnon, David Zucker, Haim Oron ,Zehava Gal-On and Hagai El-Ad are ??

You should before you call them anti Semitics.

Educate yourself about us before slandering us ......we are as Jewish as you are .

lapucelle

(19,569 posts)
12. Yes, well, thank you for acknowledging that you don't understand.
Sat Aug 31, 2024, 03:35 PM
Aug 2024

If there are any further straw man inquiries or claims, ad hominum attacks, or admissions concerning the innocent amplification of the talking points of anti-Democratic Party operatives, please see below.

Israeli

(4,310 posts)
13. Once again ....
Sat Aug 31, 2024, 03:50 PM
Aug 2024

I dont understand you .

You obviously have no understanding of the Israeli Left , thats okay tho as you are amongst the majority
on these forums Jewish or not .

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