You may consider me a "conspiracy theorist" but you shouldn't assume what I or anyone else actually believes about the particulars of 911, because you know what they say about "assuming", don't you.

I have never claimed "that the hijackers were not skilled enough to fly airliners...". Obviously to do a perfect 270 degree descending turn at >500 mph and end up at the ground floor of a 4 story building takes lots of skill.



Someone who did years of actual research into the matter (unlike many who ridicule those who have unanswered questions and who usually just regurgitate what they think sounds good and authoritative) believes that the hijacker/"pilots" were trained right here in the USA. He was a professional pilot, just like Patrick Smith, and rated in the 727,737,747,757 and 767. Here is part of that research:

WANT ANSWERS? WHO TRAINED THE 9/11 HIJACKERS TO FLY BOEING JETLINERS

The hijackers’ training records from several U.S. flight schools indicate that they were marginal pilots, at best, even in single-engine airplanes. In early 2000, three of the pilot/hijackers are heavily documented at a small flight school near Venice, Florida, while the fourth attended schools in Arizona and California. This would account for the basic flight training of the pilots but in no way can explain the expert level of airmanship required for the 911 hit...

...So began my search for Middle Eastern operators of Boeing airliners. Because the hijackers were mostly Saudi Arabian, the firm of Dallah Avco, a Saudi operator of multiple private Boeing airliners, soon stood out as a focal point. To my amazement, I immediately discovered that Congressional investigators had already linked Dallah Avco with the actual hijackers. Omar Bayoumi, a Dallah employee and operative within the Saudi Ministry of Aviation, had provided housing and basic support for three hijackers: Nawaf al-Hazmi, Khalid al-Mihdhar and the pilot/hijacker of American 77, Hani Hanjour.

FBI evidence of the cell would confirm that the hijacking team of American 77 had formed and operated separately with direct financial support from top-level members of the Saudi government, bitter enemies of al Qaeda. The picture was beginning to clear...
MORE: http://thebigbamboozle.tumblr.com/post/40856537710/want-answers-who-trained-the-9-11-hijackers-to-fly

You can read more of his writings at his blog (although you probably won't), and his writings may be related to those 28 pages you really aren't concerned with. You know, the chunk of facts that Bush and now Obama don't want anyone to see. The Censored part of 911. Because some of those who have seen these 28 pages have said there is more to the Saudi Gov connection than has been revealed. Just what the Pilot says.

Here's an interview:



See if you can argue the points he makes without resorting to the typical character assassination.

Bonus round: Fun with Google Earth- Punch these coordinates into the Go Box:

32°30′35″N 111°19′31″W

and see if you can figure out what you are looking at. I'll bet you can't, without Google or Wiki to help you out. Even though you think you know just about everything there is to know.

Last edited Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:00 PM - Edit history (1)

I can't think of any reason why I should waste time arguing about Hanjour's piloting skill with someone who thinks it was 500 mph. Go do some actual research and come back with the actual number, and maybe we can continue -- maybe discuss your theory that the base of the wall was the specifically intended target.

> I have never claimed "that the hijackers were not skilled enough to fly airliners...".

Well, gee, then maybe this thread -- which is about "truthers" who do make that claim -- isn't all about you. But, maybe I'll let you hijack the thread anyway if you can come up with an actual argument. What is it, please? If Marshall has some point that you think is particularly compelling, you should be able to state it and defend it in your own words. I'm getting pretty bored and tired with intellectually lazy "truthers" who think dumping YouTube videos is good enough.

According to the 9/11 Commission Report, as Flight 77 was 5 miles (8.0 km) west-southwest of the Pentagon, it made a 330-degree turn. At the end of the turn, it was descending through 2,200 feet (670 m), pointed toward the Pentagon and downtown Washington.

Hani Hanjour advanced the throttles to maximum power and dived toward the Pentagon... Flight 77, flying at 530 mph (853 km/h, 237 m/s, or 460 knots) over the Navy Annex Building adjacent to Arlington National Cemetery, crashed into the western side of the Pentagon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77

If it was 400 MPH it wouldn't change the point you missed. But Hanjour demonstrated amazing abilities, didn't he. A descending turn at 2,3,4 or 450 MPH and hitting the ground floor of the Pentagon. Pretty good for someone who couldn't rent a Cessna.


You're assuming again, Billy. I don't have a theory. I stated that Hanjour hit the ground floor. Nothing more, nothing less. And he did come out of a 330 degree downward descent and hit The Ground Floor. Pretty amazing. You couldn't do it.


See the excerpt from Marshall's blog. It's right there in the post.


I'm crushed. Woe is me.

... which is the point of the OP, to which you replied:

> Obviously to do a perfect 270 degree descending turn at >500 mph and end up at the ground floor of a 4 story building takes lots of skill.

Perhaps it would, but that's not what happened. Anyone can watch the animation made from the FDR data and see how fast he was actually flying and how wobbly the "perfect 270 degree descending turn" was.

> If it was 400 MPH it wouldn't change the point you missed. But Hanjour demonstrated amazing abilities, didn't he. A descending turn at 2,3,4 or 450 MPH and hitting the ground floor of the Pentagon.

The turn was around 300 mph and sloppy, and "hitting the ground floor" means he barely missed the ground. And the bridge before that. And you say the point I missed is that "Hanjour demonstrated amazing abilities?" No, based on what actually happened rather than exaggerations and hyperbole from "truther" propaganda, I'm not picking nits to reject that claim as being part of any "big picture."

> You're assuming again, Billy. I don't have a theory.

Well, maybe if you could come up with one, these threads would be more productive for both of us.

> I stated that Hanjour hit the ground floor. Nothing more, nothing less. And he did come out of a 330 degree downward descent and hit The Ground Floor. Pretty amazing. You couldn't do it.

I can easily make that turn and hit the Pentagon in Microsoft Flight Simulator, which is a fairly accurate simulation of how a 757 behaves, but hitting the ground floor means I just barely succeeded. Hanjour may have been a crappy pilot, but he was a pilot and he had trained in a sophisticated simulator.

> See the excerpt from Marshall's blog. It's right there in the post.

Yup, saw that, and I asked if you had some point that you wanted to make, hopefully somewhat relevant to the thread. I guess not.

I'll see your one and raise you what?Shall we start with six?

"shatters"!? More nonsense! He gave his opinion. One opinion and not a very credible one!

Robert Balsamo
4000TT Commercial, Instrument, Multi, CFI II MEI
Corporate Chief Pilot
135 Capt
121 FO Independence Air/Atlantic Coast Airlines
King Air C-90/200, Dornier 328JET

Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
30,000+ Total Flight Time
707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC-8, L-1049, Learjet 24/25, L-188
Ground Instructor, Advanced Ground Instructor, Instrument Instructor, Flight Engineer Turbojet
Aircraft Dispatcher
Pan Am, United
United States Air Force (ret)
Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
Command time in:
- N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
- N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

Captain Ross Aimer
United Airlines, Retired
B-777/767/757/747/737/727/720/707, DC-10/-9/-8 Type ratings
Command time in:
- N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
- N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad
23,000 hours
27 years in the airlines
B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines.
20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice
civilian pilot flying gliders, light airplanes and warbirds
Command time in:
- N644AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 77)
- N334AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 11)

Jeff Latas
-Over 20 years in the USAF
--USAF Accident investigation Board President
--Aeronautical Engineer
--Flew the F-111, T38, and F-15E
--Combat experience in the F-15E includes Desert Storm and four tours of duty in Northern and Southern Watch
--Weapons Requirements Officer, USAF HQ, Pentagon
--Standard and Evaluations Flight Examiner, Command level
-Currently Captain for JetBlue Airways

Jim Mustanich
ATP 20,000+ hours
Typed in CE-500, DHC-7, EMB-110, BA-3100
Aircraft flown include Boeing 727,737, Douglas DC-9, MD-80
United Air Lines, American International Airlines, Air Pacific Airlines, West Air Airlines
6-7 years corporate flying in Cessna Citations
Factory demo pilot for Cessna Citations

and on and on!

... and anyone who still takes him seriously wasn't paying attention.

So I'd say he's a bit more credible! And that's not to mention the scores of others.

Surely there's a minimum criteria for experts, even for the "truth movement".

you go ahead and ignore all the other pilots with thousands of hours of experience combined! You go ahead and believe that one.

who dismisses experts with thousands of hours of experience when their conclusions don't agree with his own. Do you know how many experts contributed to the NIST reports, for example?

And yes, I'll go ahead and ignore Rob. He's disqualified himself from the "experts" lists of anyone remotely rational.

over 2200 professional physicists, chemists, metalurgists, and engineers with thousands of hours of experience and learning over one or two NIST liars! Oh please excuse my error. That number is now over 2300! All your unfounded assertions aside.
http://www.ae911truth.org/signatures/ae.html

I guess you've never read the reports and seen the list of contributors then. Regardless, the only thing that the number of signers to the AE9/11 petition means is that Gage is good at finding suckers or morons. I've read through a handful of the profiles included on his web page and I'm saddened to see the poor level of professionalism displayed in their statements.

Wow!

.1 percent!!!!




ETA: Feel free to add in the number of physicists, chemists, metalurgists, and architects in the US as well to really get a good laugh over your IMPRESSIVE 2300.

Balsamo's nonsense and deliberate attempts at fraud have been exposed in excruciating detail. As with Gage's "experts," you don't really need to be an expert yourself to weigh the arguments and rebuttals -- they really aren't very complicated -- but you DO need to make an intellectually honest attempt to understand them.

steel doesn't melt from oxygen starved office and kerosene fires and that buildings do not collapse completely to the ground at free fall acceleration because of some "new phenomenon" that's never occured before!