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LostOne4Ever

(9,597 posts)
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 01:22 PM Jul 2023

Why We Must Abandon The Young Turks: Transphobia and Progressive Influencers

Why We Must Abandon The Young Turks: Transphobia and Progressive Influencers
Never attach yourself to idols
Laura Halls
Published in Prism & Pen
4 min read
Apr 22


I’ve written a couple of articles lately going over problems with Ana Kasparian and her recent delving into transphobia. In both articles, I explained why I thought transphobia would be something we would likely continue to see, and that outbursts of transphobia from Ana and The Young Turks (TYT) commentary program she co-hosts and produces would likely grow worse over time.
While it has not been long since I made those points, Ana and her co-host Cenk Uygur have continued to double down on transphobia. Keep in mind that all of this stems from Ana being wrong about how inclusive language is being used, a point she herself has criticized people for being wrong about in the past.
People have continued to explain this to Ana and Cenk, yet they are both refusing to listen to those correcting them. In fact, they both seem to be repeating the same old lie about women being called birthing persons instead of women. This is a lie on their part. Nobody is mandating that anyone call women birthing people, simply saying that language such as that is used in certain settings to be inclusive of non-binary or trans people.
More than enough people have responded to them in good faith, correcting them and explaining why they’re wrong. At this point, they cannot simply not be misunderstanding, so we can be sure that this is just them being dishonest.

[…]

They’re throwing trans people under the bus in the middle of a massive moral panic from the right.


More at link:
https://medium.com/prismnpen/why-we-must-abandon-the-young-turks-transphobia-and-progressive-influencers-3960be0ef69a

Also there is this:
https://m.

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why We Must Abandon The Young Turks: Transphobia and Progressive Influencers (Original Post) LostOne4Ever Jul 2023 OP
Nothing bothers me more than when people on the left sell us out LostOne4Ever Jul 2023 #1
And it gets worse LostOne4Ever Jul 2023 #2
They're stupid & cruel to do that.. I've Cha Jul 2023 #3
They have been bigots for A LONG time. Behind the Aegis Jul 2023 #4
Sadly lot of my "liberal" FB friends still trust them LostOne4Ever Jul 2023 #5
So I just have to ask ... which is the official, appropriately Political Correct nomenclature? Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #6
Not all mothers are women LostOne4Ever Jul 2023 #7
My phrasing? Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #10
Where in the article does it say anything about "political correctness?" LostOne4Ever Jul 2023 #12
I don't disagree with too much of what you're saying Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #13
If they identify as mothers then that is what they are LostOne4Ever Jul 2023 #14
"Using inclusive language like "those who have given birth" achieves that. Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #16
The majority of Cis Women agree LostOne4Ever Jul 2023 #17
I'm not going to sit and argue endlessly with you ... you're dead set on this gambit Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #18
All of those things came about from activists pushing LostOne4Ever Jul 2023 #19
I'm familiar with the Letter, and I understand the point Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #20
Also trans women can adopt or make babies via sperm vercetti2021 Jul 2023 #8
I understand, and I hope you are someday :) (nt) Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #11
I stopped paying attention to the young turks, Cenk and Kasparian a very long time ago LetMyPeopleVote Jul 2023 #9
Here are some good reasons to ignore Cenk and the Young turks LetMyPeopleVote Jul 2023 #15
Thank you for getting this message out. lapucelle Jul 2023 #21

LostOne4Ever

(9,597 posts)
1. Nothing bothers me more than when people on the left sell us out
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 01:26 PM
Jul 2023

It gives the bigots on the right so much ammunition. “Look even the left is against them!”

So I have made a folder of screenshots of tweets (so you don’t have to go to Twitter) to show their drift toward being TERFs:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/6W5z0t8

LostOne4Ever

(9,597 posts)
5. Sadly lot of my "liberal" FB friends still trust them
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 04:18 PM
Jul 2023

When I posted this on my Facebook a cousin of mine who is a trans woman and a socialist didn’t believe me. In fact, at first, she insisted on proof. Which is why I created that gallery. Shortly finished making it she found the proof on her own and thanked me for letting her know, saying she rather have an uncomfortable truth than a comforting lie.

It drives me nuts that there are so many people who are “supposed to be” liberals/progressives/leftist on our side who are actively hurting the cause.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
6. So I just have to ask ... which is the official, appropriately Political Correct nomenclature?
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 05:29 PM
Jul 2023
"People have continued to explain this to Ana and Cenk, yet they are both refusing to listen to those correcting them. In fact, they both seem to be repeating the same old lie about women being called birthing persons instead of women. This is a lie on their part. Nobody is mandating that anyone call women birthing people, simply saying that language such as that is used in certain settings to be inclusive of non-binary or trans people."


If someone refers to 'mothers as 'women' ... are they breaking the rules of political correctness, or not?

LostOne4Ever

(9,597 posts)
7. Not all mothers are women
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 06:16 PM
Jul 2023

Trans men give birth, non-binary AFAB trans people give birth.

That said, I would imagine saying just mothers or if you want to be especially careful you could say “anyone who gave birth.”

That said, I would call it being inclusive and/or polite. Your phrasing makes it sound like you are trying to use rightwing buzz words.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
10. My phrasing?
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 07:34 PM
Jul 2023

I quoted from the article that you posted and asked a simple question that had NO association with any 'buzz words'

But never mind that ... it sounds like you're saying that your position is that it's basically horribly offensive to your sensibilities if someone generally referred to a 'mother' ... is in any way analogous to being 'a woman', is that correct?

LostOne4Ever

(9,597 posts)
12. Where in the article does it say anything about "political correctness?"
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 08:29 PM
Jul 2023

That was the buzz words I meant.

But never mind that ... it sounds like you're saying that your position is that it's basically horribly offensive to your sensibilities if someone generally referred to a 'mother' ... is any way analogous to being 'a women', is that correct?


I never said that. The article never said anything like that. You are going out of your way to frame those of us who advocate for the use of inclusive as though we are the ones complaining or offended when it was Ms. Kasparian who took umbrage and offense where none was given nor intended. You can see that here:



There are many ways to be a woman. Anyone who identifies with womanhood enough to seriously apply the label to themselves is a woman. Cis and trans women are women.

Saying a person who gives birth includes many cis-women. The issue is using trying to use inclusive language in such a way that we don’t create bad generalizations that exclude people who want to be and should be included, or include people who do not.

Again as I said before trans-men can be mothers. Some women can’t be mothers. Saying “those who have given birth” does not erase women but acknowledges this fact. I It prevents the false implication that trans men who gave birth are women and it prevents the equally as false assumption that those women who can’t give birth are not real women.

Those of us using these terms are trying to be inclusive and fight these type of trans-antagonistic views. It is not degrading nor is it meant to be.

Ana was being a transphobic snowflake. At the time she first said this I assumed it was meant to antagonize the Biden Administration but given her bullshit comment on trans activists and now the podcast where she attacks puberty blockers and defended Jesse Singal she has proven herself a true TERF.
 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
13. I don't disagree with too much of what you're saying
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 09:43 PM
Jul 2023

Ana was at least arguably being a snowflake in that initial comment, I mostly agree there. I mean I suppose there's SOME argument to be made that a woman might prefer to be referred to as a woman, as opposed to being defined by her reproductive/baby-making capabilities, but since nobody was actually doing that to her specifically ... it's a bit of an invalid appropriation, and comes off poorly as such.

But at the same time, Cassandra's counter-argument is also VERY easily shown to be a logically fallacious response to that comment

I didn't know about 'the podcast', don't know who Jesse Singal is, nor what s/he said. If Ana 'attacks' puberty blockers, then of course I do not concur in any way.

But I have to circle back round to this point ... "Again as I said before trans-men can be mothers."

Can they, though? Is that what trans-men want to be called, is 'mother'? Because, like it or not, 'mother' implies 'female'. Why is he not a 'father'? Do you not see the dichotomy of this situation?

Do you see at all how convoluted the 'proper' nomenclature becomes, and why people, even liberals like myself who stick up for trans rights at every opportunity ... will begin to ask 'what do you expect from us?'

Mother implies a woman to the VAST majority of humankind. You cannot expect that to change because you assert, for the first time in history, that a man can also be a mother.

So, I just have to ask ... is it really worth it to insist thusly?

LostOne4Ever

(9,597 posts)
14. If they identify as mothers then that is what they are
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 10:52 PM
Jul 2023

There are many trans women who identify as dads. Mae Dean, a trans woman and comic strip creator, said this:












That said, Vercetti says she looks forward to being a “mom.” It varies and when in doubt…just ask the person!

Because, like it or not, 'mother' implies 'female'. Why is he not a 'father'? Do you not see the dichotomy of this situation?


And pushing back on THAT is the point. Again, trans men give birth. Many of them (probably most of them) do not identify as mothers. But they still are pregnant and give birth. Using inclusive language like “those who have given birth” achieves that. It in no way diminishes the cis women who give birth. It includes them as well as anyone else who may need to deliver a child.

Proper language tends to be more convoluted. A waiter telling guests “Ladies and Gentlemen, if you will all follow me I shal escort you to your dining table” is way more convoluted than “Howdy y’all, follow me to your seats!”* People will use both in real life depending on the situation.


Mother implies a woman to the VAST majority of humankind. You cannot expect that to change because you assert, for the first time in history, that a man can also be a mother.


It’s not the first time in history. There have been trans parents as long as there has been trans people (and we’ve existed since pre-history). And yes, society can change. It has before and it will again. Our language was very sexist at one time and feminist activists changed that. Flight attendant despite being more convoluted replaced Stewardess. Here are other examples:

https://ualr.edu/writingcenter/avoid-sexist-language/

So long as we have and use these exclusionary terms there will be an almost subliminal bias against trans people. But just like how our culture changed because of feminist insisting on non-sexist language we can change it by using these terms.


*Sorry for the slang but I’m from Texas! That is how we talk…sometimes
 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
16. "Using inclusive language like "those who have given birth" achieves that.
Sun Jul 9, 2023, 07:01 AM
Jul 2023

It in no way diminishes the cis women who give birth"

You can say that, and I being cis-male can easily say 'Yup, I agree'.

But at the same time ... what if some cis-women don't?

What if their true feeling is that they don't like being referred to as a 'birthing person' or 'person with a uterus'? What if they are hurt or offended and don't like being defined by their reproductive abilities, and/or simply prefer terms like woman and mother?

I might logically surmise that some women will feel slighted, like trans folks are taking something special away from them, even though they are otherwise supportive. I imagine a scenario where an expecting person might visit a bookstore maternity/child-rearing section and find that every book there has a name like 'A Guide For Pregnant Persons', and every reference in that entire book uses terms like that, and 'birthing person', etc. There's going to be a lot of women hostile to a change of that sort.

I say things like this out of caring, I want y'all to succeed and get all the rights and acceptance that are due to you, it's just there's occasionally things that you're asking for right now that I just sense are going to make it more difficult for you, that I think might go over better a little later down the line. Asking the world, essentially, to stop saying 'mother' and use 'birthing person' from now on in all generalized cases (i.e. we don't know which term a person prefers) ... it's a big ask and risks a backlash is all I'm saying.

When I look back on how far gay rights have come in my lifetime, I get a strong sense that the support in general of cis straight women, played a big role in that process. Acceptance of gay rights always polled higher in their group than it ever did with cis straight males, and I'm sure still that's still the case. It's a factor that's at least worth considering IMHO

LostOne4Ever

(9,597 posts)
17. The majority of Cis Women agree
Sun Jul 9, 2023, 12:12 PM
Jul 2023

Cis women are one of the most pro-LGBTQ demographics. It was a cis woman replying to Ana and it was statement by the Biden Administration (which is made up overwhelmingly of Cis men and women) that set Ana off in the first place.

That said, some might not understand and have had their rights attacked so much they are scared this is yet another attack on them. All we have to do is explain it to them so they can understand and they will change their minds. I think this to be a good info graphic to show them:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cftsc0dLPV0/?igshid=OGIzYTJhMTRmYQ==

Of course there will be the occasional transphobe or TERF who refuses to understand but no amount of proof will ever get through to them. They object because they want to offend and exclude. Worrying about TERFs is like worrying about racists when you tell them they shouldn’t use racist language.

What if their true feeling is that they don't like being referred to as a 'birthing person' or 'person with a uterus'? What if they are hurt or offended and don't like being defined by their reproductive abilities, and/or simply prefer terms like woman and mother?


Firstly, they are still women and mothers. We point out that inclusive language does not change that. We can also point out that by using inclusive language it does not take that away from them but it prevents the same thing that is upsetting them (feeling offended or defined by their reproductive functions) from happening to trans people. Not only that but it prevents cis-women who can’t be mothers from feeling invalidated as well. Because inclusive language helps every one including cis-women!

I might logically surmise that some women will feel slighted, like trans folks are taking something special away from them, even though they are otherwise supportive.


If they are supportive (or even just a neutral caring person with empathy) they will listen and understand that there is no slight against them and in fact that the language prevents others from being slighted in the same way that they thought they were being slighted.

I imagine a scenario where an expecting person might visit a bookstore maternity/child-rearing section and find that every book there has a name like 'A Guide For Pregnant Persons', and every reference in that entire book uses terms like that, and 'birthing person', etc. There's going to be a lot of women hostile to a change of that sort.


There are already books that have titles that are inclusive and they are quite popular. For example,

https://www.amazon.com/What-Expect-When-Youre-Expecting/dp/0761187480/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=IUBJYRQTIF0B&keywords=what+to+expect+when+you+are+expecting&qid=1688920212&sprefix=what+to+expect+when+you+are+expecting%2Caps%2C459&sr=8-1

Not one word about mothers or women in the title. That said, using inclusive language does not have to mean they don’t use the term woman in the title either. A title like “So you are expecting a baby! A guide for every cis-woman, trans-man, or non-binary person planning to give birth.” Though I personally would just say “…a guide for everyone who plans to give birth.” Myself.

That said, if they are hostile, just as with all issues where someone is hostile we just explain it to them. If they are hostile because they mistakenly feel offended then they will see that no offense was meant and that the goal was to actually prevent offense and to include people that actually have been excluded for practically forever they will change their mind.

Some people were hostile to using non-sexist language and felt offended at first but the feminists of the past changed their minds and we can too.

I say things like this out of caring, I want y'all to succeed and get all the rights and acceptance that are due to you, it's just there's occasionally things that you're asking for right now that I just sense are going to make it more difficult for you, that I think might go over better a little later down the line. Asking the world, essentially, to stop saying 'mother' and use 'birthing person' from now on in all generalized cases (i.e. we don't know which term a person prefers) ... it's a big ask and risks a backlash is all I'm saying.


If we don’t push then things don’t change for the better and “a little later down the line” never comes.

That was how it was for every civil rights movement in history. Martin Luther King lamented the lack of support from white moderates and feminists were told they were moving too fast. But it was by pushing through and changing minds that they succeeded.

And it is not a big ask. No bigger than saying “flight attendant” over “stewardess.”

When I look back on how far gay rights have come in my lifetime, I get a strong sense that the support in general of cis straight women, played a big role in that process. Acceptance of gay rights always polled higher in their group than it ever did with cis straight males, and I'm sure still that's still the case. It's a factor that's at least worth considering IMHO


Cis women support trans right far more than cis men even in the UK where TERFs have gone mainstream and have repeatedly tried (and apparently failed) to turn women against trans people:

https://www.them.us/story/a-majority-of-uk-cisgender-women-support-trans-rights-survey-reveals

This whole issue of inclusive language is just rhetoric trying to make it look like there is a divide between cis-women and trans people when there isn’t. The vast majority of Women aren’t fooled by this transphobic nonsense having seen this same tactic used against them during the women’s right movement began. Those who do get concerned but are not biased against trans people will listen and understand.

People who argue past that with concerns are just concern trolling.

Speaking of which. By he point of this thread is pointing out TYTs turn toward transphobia. Not to debate inclusive language.
 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
18. I'm not going to sit and argue endlessly with you ... you're dead set on this gambit
Sun Jul 9, 2023, 01:35 PM
Jul 2023

And I hope it works out for you

But do have to address this one point.

"If we don’t push then things don’t change for the better and “a little later down the line” never comes"

I was alive for most of the gay rights movement, and have supported it all along. Let me just share with you my recollection of how roughly this went down:

1) Decriminalize Homosexuality, and stop raiding our fucking bars, just leave us alone.
2) Let us have our public Pride Parades.
3) Stop discriminating against us when it comes to housing and loans and such.
4) Stop demonizing us with your religious bullshit, blaming us for AIDS, and instead start investing government funds and try to help us, Anita and Ronnie!
5) Stop calling gay teachers fucking groomers, we're not, and we have a right to teach children as our profession.
6) Quit using bullshit religion-based reasons to prevent us from being able to adopt children.
7) Allow gay people to serve in the military.
8) Put us in the Federal Code as a Protected Class for employment purposes.
9) Allow openly-gay characters to be represented on TV and in Movies (without them being Rated X).
10) Allow openly-gay talk show hosts.
11) You need to BAN this conversion therapy bullshit.
12) Grant the full benefits of Marriage to gay couples, protected under a SCOTUS ruling at minimum.

Do you understand how long all that took? Stonewall 1969 - Obergefell 2015 ... 46 years.

When I look back on that I have to disagree with your premise that 'later never comes'. It absolutely CAN, and that absolutely happened with Civil Rights, too.

Be strategic, that's all I'm saying.

LostOne4Ever

(9,597 posts)
19. All of those things came about from activists pushing
Sun Jul 9, 2023, 02:26 PM
Jul 2023

Not a single one of them from just sitting back and waiting for them to be magically allowed.

Every SINGLE one had activists out there pushing. Stone wall was an RIOT not a sit in. Anita Bryant getting a pie to the face was not waiting.

Do you not remember the set backs? Don’t ask don’t tell. Hillary Clinton (and almost every other democrat) saying marriage is between a man and a woman.


Progress comes from activist relentlessly pushing. I’ll finish this with the words of one of the greatest activists of all time

I MUST make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

In your statement you asserted that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But can this assertion be logically made? Isn't this like condemning the robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical delvings precipitated the misguided popular mind to make him drink the hemlock? Isn't this like condemning Jesus because His unique God-consciousness and never-ceasing devotion to His will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion? We must come to see, as federal courts have consistently affirmed, that it is immoral to urge an individual to withdraw his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest precipitates violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber.


I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth of time. I received a letter this morning from a white brother in Texas which said, "All Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but is it possible that you are in too great of a religious hurry? It has taken Christianity almost 2000 years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth." All that is said here grows out of a tragic misconception of time. It is the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time is neutral. It can be used either destructively or constructively. I am coming to feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. We must come to see that human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability. It comes through the tireless efforts and persistent work of men willing to be coworkers with God, and without this hard work time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation.

YOU spoke of our activity in Birmingham as extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. I started thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency made up of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, have been so completely drained of self-respect and a sense of "somebodyness" that they have adjusted to segregation, and, on the other hand, of a few Negroes in the middle class who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because at points they profit by segregation, have unconsciously become insensitive to the problems of the masses. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred and comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various black nationalist groups that are springing up over the nation, the largest and best known being Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement. This movement is nourished by the contemporary frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination. It is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an incurable devil. I have tried to stand between these two forces, saying that we need not follow the do-nothingism of the complacent or the hatred and despair of the black nationalist. There is a more excellent way, of love and nonviolent protest. I'm grateful to God that, through the Negro church, the dimension of nonviolence entered our struggle. If this philosophy had not emerged, I am convinced that by now many streets of the South would be flowing with floods of blood. And I am further convinced that if our white brothers dismiss as "rabble-rousers" and "outside agitators" those of us who are working through the channels of nonviolent direct action and refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes, out of frustration and despair, will seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies, a development that will lead inevitably to a frightening racial nightmare.

Oppressed people cannot remain oppressed forever. The urge for freedom will eventually come. This is what has happened to the American Negro. Something within has reminded him of his birthright of freedom; something without has reminded him that he can gain it. Consciously and unconsciously, he has been swept in by what the Germans call the Zeitgeist, and with his black brothers of Africa and his brown and yellow brothers of Asia, South America, and the Caribbean, he is moving with a sense of cosmic urgency toward the promised land of racial justice. Recognizing this vital urge that has engulfed the Negro community, one should readily understand public demonstrations. The Negro has many pent-up resentments and latent frustrations. He has to get them out. So let him march sometime; let him have his prayer pilgrimages to the city hall; understand why he must have sit- ins and freedom rides. If his repressed emotions do not come out in these nonviolent ways, they will come out in ominous expressions of violence. This is not a threat; it is a fact of history. So I have not said to my people, "Get rid of your discontent." But I have tried to say that this normal and healthy discontent can be channeled through the creative outlet of nonviolent direct action. Now this approach is being dismissed as extremist. I must admit that I was initially disappointed in being so categorized.

But as I continued to think about the matter, I gradually gained a bit of satisfaction from being considered an extremist. Was not Jesus an extremist in love? -- "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you." Was not Amos an extremist for justice? -- "Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." Was not Paul an extremist for the gospel of Jesus Christ? -- "I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." Was not Martin Luther an extremist? -- "Here I stand; I can do no other so help me God." Was not John Bunyan an extremist? -- "I will stay in jail to the end of my days before I make a mockery of my conscience." Was not Abraham Lincoln an extremist? -- "This nation cannot survive half slave and half free." Was not Thomas Jefferson an extremist? -- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." So the question is not whether we will be extremist, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate, or will we be extremists for love? Will we be extremists for the preservation of injustice, or will we be extremists for the cause of justice?

I had hoped that the white moderate would see this. Maybe I was too optimistic. Maybe I expected too much. I guess I should have realized that few members of a race that has oppressed another race can understand or appreciate the deep groans and passionate yearnings of those that have been oppressed, and still fewer have the vision to see that injustice must be rooted out by strong, persistent, and determined action. I am thankful, however, that some of our white brothers have grasped the meaning of this social revolution and committed themselves to it. They are still all too small in quantity, but they are big in quality. Some, like Ralph McGill, Lillian Smith, Harry Golden, and James Dabbs, have written about our struggle in eloquent, prophetic, and understanding terms. Others have marched with us down nameless streets of the South. They sat in with us at lunch counters and rode in with us on the freedom rides. They have languished in filthy roach-infested jails, suffering the abuse and brutality of angry policemen who see them as "dirty nigger lovers." They, unlike many of their moderate brothers, have recognized the urgency of the moment and sensed the need for powerful "action" antidotes to combat the disease of segregation.


Martin Luther King- Letter from Birmingham Jail
 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
20. I'm familiar with the Letter, and I understand the point
Sun Jul 9, 2023, 03:06 PM
Jul 2023

At the same time I think ... what if the demand at step 1 was the demand at step 12? I mean step 12 was barely if at all uttered at the don't ask don't tell stage, roughly 25 years later after Stonewall.

Imagine if the Civil War was not just about freeing the slaves, but also letting black men marry white women?

There's a bit of risk to demanding large-scale social change too quickly. I wish it were not so, and I don't mean to say it's right ... but I think it is reality.

Not telling you what to do, and I don't know all, and I'm beside you and wish you the best. Thanks for the civil chat

vercetti2021

(10,402 posts)
8. Also trans women can adopt or make babies via sperm
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 06:39 PM
Jul 2023

I plan on doing either with my own girlfriend in the future. I will be a mother someday

lapucelle

(19,532 posts)
21. Thank you for getting this message out.
Mon Jul 10, 2023, 11:07 AM
Jul 2023

TYT has always been divisive and its front people have long embraced the tactic of marginalizing voices that didn't serve their particular messaging.

Ana Kasparian's bizarre rantings about the trans community have not only been disgusting, but they have also given implicit permission for the folks who follow TYT to do the same.

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