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More sexual objectification on DU (Original Post) intaglio Sep 2013 OP
Are they saying the meaning of "date" is have sex with"? uppityperson Sep 2013 #1
If you look at the pictures intaglio Sep 2013 #2
Jury results BainsBane Sep 2013 #3
Tell me, am I a bad person for posting in that thread? NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #4
I can't see what you posted, and the image isn't visible. BainsBane Sep 2013 #5
It was a snarky reply. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #11
Good for you BainsBane Sep 2013 #12
Beefcake has its own sexist aspect Gormy Cuss Sep 2013 #14
That is the key issue in sexism, racism, homophobia, antisemitism, etc . . BainsBane Sep 2013 #16
It's a shame that there are no rules on DU against sexual objectification. Gormy Cuss Sep 2013 #6
There is no such thing as objectification BainsBane Sep 2013 #7
There's no patriarchy either. Gormy Cuss Sep 2013 #8
No, if fact we women persecute men BainsBane Sep 2013 #9
You know.. opiate69 Sep 2013 #10
Me? I'm just a wimenz BainsBane Sep 2013 #13
Ah.. the alleged Doctorate... well then... opiate69 Sep 2013 #17
Alleged BainsBane Sep 2013 #18
Always, always trying to make women victims. polly7 Sep 2013 #32
You obviously don't know the context here BainsBane Sep 2013 #33
That's just what you said before you polly7 Sep 2013 #34
Oh, "started in" BainsBane Sep 2013 #36
My 'boyfriend'? polly7 Sep 2013 #37
Hi, girlfriend!! opiate69 Sep 2013 #43
That was the point BainsBane Sep 2013 #45
Well hiya, Snookums! polly7 Sep 2013 #46
And your reading comprehension is selective then twisting and turning it into polly7 Sep 2013 #47
A victim is someone who conspires with BainsBane Sep 2013 #35
I don't like manipulative bullying trying to polly7 Sep 2013 #38
I suggest you consult a dictionary. BainsBane Sep 2013 #41
"Not engaging in the subject matter"... opiate69 Sep 2013 #42
sigh BainsBane Sep 2013 #44
Good lord ........ the implication was that someone was polly7 Sep 2013 #48
Good post gopiscrap Sep 2013 #15
This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Sep 2013 #20
What sets my alarms ringing is the posting of sexualised images intaglio Sep 2013 #19
This. n/t Gormy Cuss Sep 2013 #21
B-b-but us men are powerless to control our NATURAL URGES! YoungDemCA Sep 2013 #22
I hate to be a voice of dissent here... Violet_Crumble Sep 2013 #23
I've nothing against desire intaglio Sep 2013 #24
Exploitative? Laelth Sep 2013 #26
Yes, exploitative intaglio Sep 2013 #27
Isn't it strange to you ... Laelth Sep 2013 #28
Willing? intaglio Sep 2013 #29
Um ... I am not following you. Laelth Sep 2013 #30
And my first paragraph is the response intaglio Sep 2013 #39
So anything apart from a head and shoulders shot is exploitative? Violet_Crumble Sep 2013 #59
No, please read for comprehension intaglio Sep 2013 #72
This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Sep 2013 #25
It's okay to lust after celebrities. Gormy Cuss Sep 2013 #31
Eddie Vedder would look a bit weird in lingerie... Violet_Crumble Sep 2013 #58
Great song, too n/t PasadenaTrudy Oct 2013 #81
Outside of here JustAnotherGen Sep 2013 #40
Do you encounter people so reactionary off line? BainsBane Sep 2013 #50
I don't JustAnotherGen Sep 2013 #53
What they perceive a man was supposed to be BainsBane Sep 2013 #54
In an only tangentially related point BainsBane Sep 2013 #55
Okay, I'm going to make a comment and a suggestion... Violet_Crumble Sep 2013 #61
the person wasn't in this group or even this thread BainsBane Sep 2013 #62
Okay, I can see that fell on deaf ears... Violet_Crumble Sep 2013 #63
WTF are you talking about? BainsBane Sep 2013 #64
Here it is as clear-cut as it gets: Take the Meta crap somewhere else... Violet_Crumble Sep 2013 #65
The thread is Meta BainsBane Sep 2013 #68
Or for what does NOT JustAnotherGen Sep 2013 #66
You know, I think that sums it up perfectly BainsBane Sep 2013 #67
Aw, that's so nice to read... redqueen Sep 2013 #69
Yes it is JustAnotherGen Sep 2013 #71
This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Sep 2013 #57
I think it is naivite BainsBane Sep 2013 #60
Oh, you sweet innocent intaglio Sep 2013 #73
Actually I'm not male BainsBane Sep 2013 #74
Edited n/t intaglio Sep 2013 #75
Still wrong BainsBane Sep 2013 #76
IMO it's a blind spot. redqueen Sep 2013 #70
I actually have a very cynical theory about abortion rights BainsBane Sep 2013 #77
Oh yes, I totally agree. redqueen Sep 2013 #78
This message was self-deleted by its author BainsBane Sep 2013 #49
woman here Skittles Sep 2013 #51
You have a knack for getting right to the point BainsBane Sep 2013 #52
So what is you position about women being sickened by objectifying images? intaglio Sep 2013 #56
honestly, I do not wish to "debate" this issue with you Skittles Sep 2013 #79
In other words you cannot debate. intaglio Sep 2013 #80

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
3. Jury results
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 04:36 PM
Sep 2013

They love to pretend they are persecuted over their juvenile bikini babe threads. My view is don't give them the attention.


At Sat Sep 21, 2013, 02:27 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

The sickos at the "Men's Group" has done it again
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113910284

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

"Sickos"??? Really?? Is it OK to call DUers that now?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Sep 21, 2013, 02:38 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: God. I can only imagine with that group has going now. DU wants to allow a reactionary MRA section of the site, people are going to comment on what they are. Those are the breaks.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: I think it is spam. Are the spammers capturing legit DU'ers accounts these days?
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: THE ALERTER NEEDS TO FIND A LIFE.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: The thread is in poor taste but to call the whole group sickos is too much
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
5. I can't see what you posted, and the image isn't visible.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:34 PM
Sep 2013

I don't think you're a bad person period. Nor do I think posting in those threads necessarily makes anyone a bad person, but the threads are sexist and juvenile. The girly threads are actually low on my offensive meter compared to what else is posted in that group.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
11. It was a snarky reply.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:53 PM
Sep 2013

Posted a pic of Brad Pitt. Just to deflate the boy's club nature of the thing. But beefcake pics have their own and sexist element.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
14. Beefcake has its own sexist aspect
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:59 PM
Sep 2013

and sexism is not a progressive value. However, sexist portrayals of men vs. sexist portrayals of women display a different historical and cultural context with the latter having the disadvantage because of the difference in the power dynamic.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
16. That is the key issue in sexism, racism, homophobia, antisemitism, etc . .
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:31 AM
Sep 2013

It's a question of power, a historically oppressed group in contrast to a dominant group. Some men want to pretend that sexism applies equally, or that feminism is itself sexism. It's an attitude entirely divorced from historical understanding and current social reality.

That thread looking for signs of misandry was pretty funny. It took them a month to find one example. Anyone of us could point to several examples of sexism against women each and everyday. Yesterday there were at least two threads in GD referring to women as sluts in the subject title. The first was allowed to stand by a jury and I don't know if anyone even bothered alerting on the second since we know too many accept degradation of women as the norm.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
6. It's a shame that there are no rules on DU against sexual objectification.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:40 PM
Sep 2013


I'd like to challenge the DUers who don't understand sexual objectification to watch "Killing Us Softly" by Jean Kilbourne.
and the more recent "MissRepresentation" by Jennifer Siebel Newsom (Netflix has it, also see here for background http://www.missrepresentation.org/ )

Those films show just how pervasive and corrosive sexual objectification of women is.



BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
7. There is no such thing as objectification
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:43 PM
Sep 2013

Our problem is that we see all male sexuality as pathological.

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
10. You know..
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:35 PM
Sep 2013

For somebody who claims to not "want to give them attention", you certainly don't seem to miss a single syllable that is poster there.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
13. Me? I'm just a wimenz
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:59 PM
Sep 2013

I'm too uneducated and maladjusted to remember anything. Everyone knows a Ph.D. for a woman is the equivalent of a high-school degree for a man. I'm too scatterbrained to keep track of anything. It's my hormones. I can't help it.




 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
17. Ah.. the alleged Doctorate... well then...
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:58 AM
Sep 2013

I'll take Notable Doctorate earners who aren't exactly known for their intellect, for $200, Alex.

Rand Paul
Bill Frist
Rick Santorum
Ron Paul
Phil McGraw
Michelle Bachman...

and the list goes on....

polly7

(20,582 posts)
32. Always, always trying to make women victims.
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:34 AM
Sep 2013

I'm sorry you see everything as some sort of conspiracy to take all women down, but there really are many of us who've excelled in fields that include men, and who aren't threatened by all those things you seem to be. As a very young woman I went through some really tough situations where I was targeted because I was a woman and physically not as strong, but I came through it not seeing the world through the eyes of a victim, but a survivor .... and guess what, I still don't see anything that includes mention of woman in a desirable way as objectifying, insulting or abnormal. Johnny Depp could eat crackers in my bed anytime, maybe I'll post a semi-nude picture of him and see if all the 'menz' here feel victimized. You really need to get over speaking for all of us. Some things are just normal and this has been true from the beginning of time. Help out at a women's shelter, round up non-perishables, blankets, toys ... petition your lawmakers to change policy that really does harm women, join and donate to organizations that target children and women made vulnerable by poverty - spread the word, there are many online orgs now that are working hard to do just that.

Speak for yourself. We're not all poor, put-upon 'wimenz' and some of us even enjoy looking at beautiful people.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
33. You obviously don't know the context here
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:38 AM
Sep 2013

and haven't even bothered to read my responses in this thread. Even so, the sarcasm icon should have been a clue to even the least observant. A casual glance at your post shows it to entirely unrelated to me and anything but your own internal dialogue, You rants and personal attacks are boring. Keep talking to yourself because what you say has zero interest to me. Consider that a permanent reply to any and all future posts.

Anyone who can invent a rant like that in response to a joke is beyond discussing with. Your relentless animosity toward me is juvenile.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
34. That's just what you said before you
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:42 AM
Sep 2013

started in on me with your sock.

And I realize that helping people in real life would have zero interest to you. Playing victim is apparently much more satisfying.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
36. Oh, "started in"
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 11:00 AM
Sep 2013

Like telling you what the article actually said? Yes, reading comprehension truly is an unforgivable sin. More junior-high petty vindictiveness.

Reading comprehension is clearly a recurring problem, since you've decided to attack me about the bikini babes thread rather than the members here who actually complain about it. Your boyfriend is the one who accused the women of this group of being "uneducated and maladjusted," as well as a host of other slurs I don't recall. If I repeat his words in jest, it's portraying women as victims, if he does, it's brilliance. Boys are always so much smarter.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
45. That was the point
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 08:44 PM
Sep 2013

The language echoed the level of conversation presented to me. I wouldn't have thought that would have been particularly difficult to figure out. Note references to playground and cafeteria.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
46. Well hiya, Snookums!
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:05 PM
Sep 2013

LOL. And say hello to your lovely wife for me .... tell her not to worry, I was called Saddam Hussein's girlfriend at one time too! Not to worry, you're much nicer than he was, I'm sure lol.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
47. And your reading comprehension is selective then twisting and turning it into
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:07 PM
Sep 2013

something that can be made to see all women as victims, ad nauseum.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
35. A victim is someone who conspires with
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:53 AM
Sep 2013

men in the subjection of other women, not someone who works against it.

If you want to defend the bikini babes thread, common sense would mean arguing with someone who actually complains about it, not the person who suggested ignoring it. But of course the point isn't substance is it? It's the fact that you don't like a particular girl on the playground.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
38. I don't like manipulative bullying trying to
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 11:12 AM
Sep 2013

persuade others they're victims day after day after day after day. And I've already told you, I don't like or dislike you .... I don't know you. I sure didn't like your sock, though.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
41. I suggest you consult a dictionary.
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 03:31 PM
Sep 2013

Last edited Mon Sep 23, 2013, 04:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Bullying is several people ganging up on one, which is what you engaged in last night and on other occasions. It is hurling bigoted slurs and defending them because you don't like the people they are directed against. It is telling random strangers to piss off because you have a bad day. What it is not is having the nerve to post about background checks, disagree with a man, or object to another woman being called an "attention whore." It is following someone into a group, not engaging with the subject matter and instead carrying out personal grudges. You and your friend's escapade in the Gungeon managed to get two threads locked, while the host invited me to repost my OP without the disruptors. It is truly unfortunate that you see a discussion of expanded background checks keeping guns out of the hands of felons and those adjudicated a danger to themselves and others as less important than your personal vendetta. For some reason, the host did not agree.

Your invocation of the short-lived sock is your common go-to when you lack the capacity to respond substantively, which is often. You would do well to spend less time engaging in petty fights with strangers and thinking about something that matters in life. What a complete waste of energy. This site is designed to discuss politics. It is not a junior high playground. I understand you hate me. Fine. You're obviously heavily invested in that hatred, but that really is your problem. I, on the other hand, am unconcerned with your existence. Now, I request you leave me alone and find a more appropriate outlet for your frustrations.

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
42. "Not engaging in the subject matter"...
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 06:44 PM
Sep 2013

So tell me, genius... that first post of yours that I replied to in that thread... exactly how did it pertain to CC activism?

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
44. sigh
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 07:05 PM
Sep 2013

We were talking about background checks. I was establishing common ground with NYC_Skp, who identifies as a 2A defender but is quite reasonable on gun control issues. He was talking about being banned from the Gun Control Reform Activism forum and believes the banning was personal. Perhaps it was. I don't know the circumstances. So I told what I thought was a funny story. I did not name either the host or the banned person. The message was meant to be: "Don't feel bad. It happens elsewhere too. I appreciate your support on background checks." You might have observed that support is pretty rare among gungeon folk. I saw it as an amusing story to be friendly with a perceived adversary on gun control, which is my principal political concern. Now, I could have left the name of the group off, and on reflection I should have. It wasn't key to the story. As I told Warren, I would have happily edited it out on request. But your goal clearly wasn't keeping confidentiality of your group, since you decided to focus on a personal grudge and bring more exposure to the ban. In the process, you winded up getting two threads locked. Congrats. I have no doubt you enjoyed yourself.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
48. Good lord ........ the implication was that someone was
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:14 PM
Sep 2013

called a 'whore', when I went and checked, that wasn't the case at all. I was called to jury duty for a post in that thread ....... and no, I didn't get anything shut down.

That short-lived sock was used purposefully in a thread right along with your BB handle .... dishonest and weird, although I give you credit for not screwing up and answering yourself lol. No worries about how I spend my time. I've posted here more than usual lately because I was so against striking Syria - about 6 posts per day. As compared to your 64 posts per day ... I don't think you're in a position to criticize anyone for their time spent here. And I've told you, I don't hate anonymous names on a message board although I know repeating it over and over makes you feel .... something or other, and believe me, not an ounce of my being is 'invested' in making you feel anything, nor do you frustrate me. I respond to posts. Especially those that imply things that are blatantly false.

Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #6)

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
19. What sets my alarms ringing is the posting of sexualised images
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:07 AM
Sep 2013

If dating is what they were really talking about then faces or names would be enough. Would you post a picture of a stranger you would like to date in a wet T-shirt or sprawled on a bed in a negligee?

Violet_Crumble

(36,142 posts)
23. I hate to be a voice of dissent here...
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 03:11 AM
Sep 2013

I'm pretty sure I'm a feminist, and there's a few threads in that group that offend me as a woman, but that one's not one of them. I'm guessing most adults, be they male or female, have one or more celebrities they think are really hot and sexually attractive. I don't think it's creepy, but pretty normal. Back in the 90's I seriously lusted after Eddie Vedder, and to a lesser and more cerebral extent, Lou Barlow. That doesn't mean I was at any risk of becoming a creepy stalky type, in fact it's the opposite. It's not like yr ever going to meet them and it's worshipping from a distance sort of thing. If it's okay for me as a woman to think a male celebrity is really hot, then I can't turn around and say there's something sick and unhealthy when men think a female celebrity is really hot

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
24. I've nothing against desire
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 04:30 AM
Sep 2013

but I am against using that as an excuse to post what are exploitative images.

I said in an earlier post if expressing your desire was what was wanted then a head and shoulders shot or just a name and link is sufficient.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
26. Exploitative?
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 08:11 AM
Sep 2013

The people whose images are being posted are making a good deal of money off their sexiness. Makes me wonder who's being exploited--the person who's being photographed or the person who's drooling over the picture.

If people choose to make money off their looks, I say "more power too them." If I were a super-sexy model-type male, I'd be tempted to make money off of it too.

What's wrong with that, really?



-Laelth

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
27. Yes, exploitative
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 08:21 AM
Sep 2013

The images are first used by the publicists to sell, later they are used by consumers to excite others. I am sure that one or two of the models will be exhibitionist and hence OK with such pictures. On the other hand I am sure most would prefer not to be so pictured if there was an alternative.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
28. Isn't it strange to you ...
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 08:39 AM
Sep 2013

... that so many people are flat out willing to be exploited? Even I would sign up, if I had the body and the looks for it.

Is poverty the problem from your point of view? Or, is it the fact that humans are sexual animals? If you think poverty is the problem, I am right there with you, and I'd support any number of programs designed to aid people who are being exploited due to their poverty. If, on the other hand, the problem is that humans are sexual beings and, as a result, they lust after and desire persons they find attractive, then I can't follow you. I don't see that as a problem. I think that's natural and, ultimately, desirable.

-Laelth

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
29. Willing?
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 09:17 AM
Sep 2013

Given little choice is not the same as willing. Doing what you are told is necessary to keep your job is not the same as willing.

Because you regard sex a a sales technique I presume you also justify sex work using the same premises; I do not.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
30. Um ... I am not following you.
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 09:27 AM
Sep 2013

My question, quite specifically, was directed toward the problem that you feel needs to be addressed.

What is that problem, exactly? What is the cause of the exploitation you see? If you can't identify its cause, I can't help you find a solution.

-Laelth

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
39. And my first paragraph is the response
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 12:39 PM
Sep 2013

What you call willingness is too often outside pressure to conform. This blindness as to the influences that drive those pictured is of the same type that allows sex work to proliferate in ignorance of the pressures applied to even the most willing participant.

In the thread I find objectionable the use of (admittedly mild) erotic images indicates that those posting are not interested in "dates" but in sexual toys.

Violet_Crumble

(36,142 posts)
59. So anything apart from a head and shoulders shot is exploitative?
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 06:51 AM
Sep 2013

Does that just apply to women, or does it go for men as well? If so, I've posted lots of exploitative images in a few music forums away from DU over the years

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
72. No, please read for comprehension
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 11:39 AM
Sep 2013

I said that in the context of this particular Mens Group thread (which asked which celebrities the poster would like to date) a name or head and shoulders shot would have been sufficient.

If you looked at many of the photos on that thread you would see that they are "cheesecake" or "beefsteak" shots; disordered or wet clothing, disordered or wet hair, mouths open, blemishes photoshopped out. Essentially the thread was about titillation.

Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #23)

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
31. It's okay to lust after celebrities.
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 09:58 AM
Sep 2013

It's weird to post images of them in lingerie on a center-left political board.



Violet_Crumble

(36,142 posts)
58. Eddie Vedder would look a bit weird in lingerie...
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 06:38 AM
Sep 2013

I was having a think about this last night, and I was wondering if the reaction would be similar if a thread on totally hot celebrities were started in The Lounge. There's areas of DU where talk isn't about politics and turns to chatty stuff, so if it were started in GD, I'd probably be thinking it's weird to see it there or in any other group or forum that's devoted to political stuff...

I just don't think the thread's exploiting women, or creepy or anything. While all my totally hot celebs I can think of are really cool musicians from the 90's, if my area of interest was male models, I could outdo any guy on producing pics with lots of flesh and provocative poses....

And as I mentioned really cool and totally hot celebs from the 90's, here's Lou Barlow, who was sexy as hell when he got that bored look happening. My quest for the next year is to sneak this clip into every forum or group at DU without people noticing I'm on a quest



BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
50. Do you encounter people so reactionary off line?
Tue Sep 24, 2013, 10:56 PM
Sep 2013

I don't. Or perhaps they just keep it to themselves because they know it to be anti-social?

JustAnotherGen

(33,565 posts)
53. I don't
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 02:00 AM
Sep 2013

I really don't. But I think some men on the Internet are only what they perceive a man "should be" when they are playing on the Internet.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
54. What they perceive a man was supposed to be
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 02:20 AM
Sep 2013

50-60 years ago. It also may just be bluster and compensation for whatever goes on at home.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
55. In an only tangentially related point
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 02:26 AM
Sep 2013

I noticed that some have interpreted my comment about female misogynists to include themselves. Since I don't know these people at all, I couldn't possibly make such a determination. If that is what they choose to call themselves, I defer to them on the matter.

Violet_Crumble

(36,142 posts)
61. Okay, I'm going to make a comment and a suggestion...
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 06:59 AM
Sep 2013

If you make a comment about female misogynists while yr arguing with another woman in this group and she takes offense, then that definitely does not mean that she calls herself a misogynist. That means that she's seen that comment as an insult aimed at her. I've taken offense in the past coz one or two people at DU called me a terrorist supporter. Me taking offense at that doesn't mean I choose to call myself that, so it's the same with what you said. Instead of following it up with a post designed to double-down on the insult, maybe work on communicating with others in this group in a more constructive way? Because some of what I'm reading is bringing back memories of Meta, imo...

And when it comes to other groups you really don't like, there's a thing called Trash that will make groups and forums vanish. There's also the ignore button. I think it'd be a good idea to use those tools that Skinner provided us with...

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
62. the person wasn't in this group or even this thread
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 07:04 AM
Sep 2013

Or in the thread where I mentioned female misogynists, which is locked. I was arguing with no woman at the time.
If people decide to take things personally when something is not directed at them, there is nothing I can do about that. I find it a bit unusual when it's someone I've never communicated with, but that kind of psychological tendency is well above my pay grade.

And the group is firmly in the trash can now. Thanks for caring.

You might realize this entire thread is dedicated to a thread in another group. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you take it up with the hosts.

Violet_Crumble

(36,142 posts)
63. Okay, I can see that fell on deaf ears...
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 07:10 AM
Sep 2013

Don't let me stand in the way of you continuing whatever it is you think yr doing here...

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
64. WTF are you talking about?
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 07:11 AM
Sep 2013

I don't think you have any idea. Do you know what this thread is about? You again seem to miss the context and just don't care. Your rendition of the events are simply not accurate.

Now, I have put one person in this thread on ignore, so if they are complaining, I have no longer have awareness of it. I believe that would be following the spirit of your advice, even if your rendition of the precise circumstances are off.

Violet_Crumble

(36,142 posts)
65. Here it is as clear-cut as it gets: Take the Meta crap somewhere else...
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 07:21 AM
Sep 2013

And duh. I do know what this thread is about, so knock off the patronising stuff. I know you won't, but at least I asked

JustAnotherGen

(33,565 posts)
66. Or for what does NOT
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 07:36 AM
Sep 2013

Go on at home.

I think some people are aware that my husband is an avid reader of DU but does not post as English is not his first language in spite of living here for about 8 years as a little kid.

But he showed me the men's group under his login last night. Note: He stalks me at DU and wanted to know what kind of shenanigans I was getting into in the women's group yesterday morning!

I was not surprised - but he had a few choice words that I won't repeat here. And he just loves redqueen and seabeyond's minds to bits and pieces - and was pissed when he saw what was hidden as an op by rq. His words - "Those boys (stress boys) can't handle a few images showing them the type of boys (again stressed boys) they are."

ETA: A feminist man's perspective - they don't LIKE women enough to listen to them -and that's why they don't have one. Women know. . .

JustAnotherGen

(33,565 posts)
71. Yes it is
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 08:50 AM
Sep 2013
But it is also the 'security' of the "Alpha Male" who is pretty full of himself and was quite 'smooth' when we first met.

Response to BainsBane (Reply #50)

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
60. I think it is naivite
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 06:58 AM
Sep 2013

but it's also generational. The average age on this site is fairly old, I would guess mid 60s. I'm starting to wonder of what many people long for on any number of issues is a restoration to the past, an idealized past, but the past nonetheless. In terms of gender, that means women weren't so uppity and knew to hold their tongues near men. Or perhaps it's just people reveal parts of themselves on line that they are more circumspect about offline because they don't fear the social ramifications. Some of these groups can have insidious effects because they create the false perception that everyone thinks like their members. Then there is the dynamic where people behave differently in groups and go further than they would as individuals (as demonstrated in an extreme way in the Stanford Prison Experiment). I'm not sure what the answer is, but it's far from a reflection of liberal communities outside of this site.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
73. Oh, you sweet innocent
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 11:48 AM
Sep 2013

You seem to believe the publicity about the "older generation".

In addition you are completely ignorant of other cultures. Having been brought up in the UK we have naked women and men on display in our parks, gardens and museums; we are also well aware that many of the portraits made by classic artists showed the subjects "en dishabille" precisely for the same purposes of titillation that the "cheesecake" and "beefsteak" images used in that thread.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
74. Actually I'm not male
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 11:58 AM
Sep 2013

I've lived in the UK and Brazil, and traveled many other places. Sigh. We also have naked women in our museums, as they do in France, Italy, Holland, Mexico, Brazil, etc. . .. Few places do not. I can't believe you're actually arguing that the Brits are open about sex.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
76. Still wrong
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 12:00 PM
Sep 2013

I would have figured the Alice avatar was a clue, if not the feminism and info on the profile page.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
70. IMO it's a blind spot.
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 08:45 AM
Sep 2013

For the most part - when it comes to the right to abortion or to equal pay, legal issues and the like - you'd be right in assuming all liberal men respect women's rights, as far as that goes.

The issues raised in Miss Representation, in Killing Us Softly, in Sexy Baby... these are not so well received. We've made progress with rape culture though. There's much less victim blaming here now than there was a few years ago. It's far from perfect but there is noticeable progress. The stuff about objectification and hypersexualization is going to be a much harder issue to raise awareness about though, for obvious reasons.

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
77. I actually have a very cynical theory about abortion rights
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 12:13 PM
Sep 2013

I think they support it because it advantages them. I'm not talking about all liberal men, of course, but the ones who oppose equal rights in other ways. Abortion makes it easier for them to have sex without permanent consequences. When it comes to things like EEOC law, however, they put up resistance. When it comes to areas that prompt them to give up any of their privilege, whether competing for jobs or adjusting their behavior, they don't like it. So I don't see them as supporting equal rights at all. The hostility toward discussions of domestic violence and rape are obvious red flags indicating they devalue women.

Gen's husband made a wonderful observation, if you read her post above. He looked around and said: They don't like women enough to listen to what they say. That really encapsulates it perfectly.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
78. Oh yes, I totally agree.
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 12:45 PM
Sep 2013

Those few liberal men who somehow manage to argue that the wage gap doesn't exist... or that domestic violence is actually the result of female violence and/or a cottage industry run by da eebil bad feminists (i.e. not the fun kind), with statistics cooked to overhype male violence against women... or that education itself is being maliciously and institutionally unfair to boys and men... as for those types, I'm quite sure you're right. But that's a small minority of allegedly liberal men.

On the other hand, though, of the vast majority of actually liberal men, I really do think they simply have a massive (and massively self-serving) blind spot when it comes to the objectification and hypersexualization of women.

Response to intaglio (Original post)

Skittles

(159,372 posts)
51. woman here
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 12:12 AM
Sep 2013

there's a difference between guys getting worked up over beautiful gals and guys being sickening by objectifying women in general - it's the difference between men being men and men being assholes

BainsBane

(54,786 posts)
52. You have a knack for getting right to the point
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 01:55 AM
Sep 2013

Last edited Wed Sep 25, 2013, 02:40 AM - Edit history (1)

The analogy with open carry was priceless.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
56. So what is you position about women being sickened by objectifying images?
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 02:32 AM
Sep 2013

Are such women "assholes"?

What do you think about people being upset by others objectifying other people?

Why do you think that men "getting worked up" is unavoidable for real men (tm); are men just machines unable to control their impulses?

Let's say that you are walking down a road in sexy clothes, that is your choice. Then a guy sees you and rings up all his male friends to come and look at the sexily dressed woman until you have a crowd of 100 or so guys all following you and saying how sexy you are and how they would like to "date you" (know what they mean, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more). Are you saying you would be comfortable with that?

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
80. In other words you cannot debate.
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 04:51 PM
Sep 2013

You have little sense of how a new normal for society must be formed if we are not to be overwhelmed by the same old garbage. The sort of garbage I mean is the garbage that empowers stalkers, abusers and rapists.

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