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redqueen

(115,164 posts)
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 06:42 PM Feb 2012

Right. I'm back.

Someone reminded me that I posted this last year. And how much I agreed with it. So yeah, I'm over being so badly triggered over the weekend.

Those of you who suggested a break were exactly right. I haven't experienced anything like that on DU and it rattled me. I won't be so shaken next time (I hope).

So this is what convinced me that I shouldn't give up on DU. This is a long article, but it's very very very much worth reading.

All of it.


http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cocktail-party-physics/2011/07/20/is-it-cold-in-here/

Is It Cold in Here?
By Jennifer Ouellette | July 20, 2011 | 106

(snip)

With all the other trouble in the world, why should we care about this? It’s because those climate issues chase many women out of the hard sciences — and indeed, out of any male-dominated community. In March, the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, conducted an NSF-funded study on the retention (or lack thereof) of women in engineering. Nearly half of the women surveyed who left engineering said they did so because of negative working conditions, lack of advancement or low salary, and one in three left because they did not like the workplace climate, their boss or the culture. Only one in four left to spend more time with family — the usual excuse that gets trotted out when folks try to explain away the low numbers of women in such fields.

(snip)

It pretty much mirrored every Internet comment thread (follow that link for a terrific comic by Gabby Schulz) that ensues whenever a woman, however diplomatically, dares to raise the issue of sexist behavior, with one crucial difference: Watson was being attacked by members of her own community, who prided themselves on their rationality and critical thinking — in short, by the very people who should have had her back.

Here is the message being sent to the women skeptics and atheists say they want to join their ranks: “If an atheist/skeptic man behaves boorishly toward you, or refuses to respect your boundaries, whether social or sexual, and you have the gall to state firmly that this is not okay, you will be publicly pilloried, ridiculed for being hysterical, called a man-hating feminazi (or worse), and have your concerns belittled and dismissed.”

(snip... and here is the part that's relevant to my wanting to stop participating in discussions here)

(1) Ladies: even though you might not feel 100% welcome, grit your teeth and show up anyway, because there is power in numbers. Studies have shown that these chilling effects start to dissipate as communities approach 50/50 gender ratios. I showed up anyway, and I’m glad I did, because I could see firsthand how much has changed since I last attended TAM. TAM9 had markedly more women in the audience (around 40%), and half the speakers were women. I was the only woman speaker at TAM7 two years ago. That is tremendous progress in a very short time, and the willingness of Watson and her fellow “skepchicks” to show up, speak out, and endure the inevitable slings and arrows cast their way played a key role in making it happen.

...



Please read the whole thing. Please.
33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Right. I'm back. (Original Post) redqueen Feb 2012 OP
. PeaceNikki Feb 2012 #1
You will enjoy it, I'm sure. redqueen Feb 2012 #15
good. you are back. i will read it. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #2
Thanks, redqueen Feb 2012 #17
Glad to see you back. DonCoquixote Feb 2012 #3
I chose that as the last paragraph in the excerpt for that reason, yes. redqueen Feb 2012 #16
An excellent read. Thank you for posting this! arcane1 Feb 2012 #4
ha ha. +1. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #6
Isn't it? redqueen Feb 2012 #18
I LOVED that one!! arcane1 Feb 2012 #31
This saddening, but not surprising. And it is such a glorious field, despite what most people think. Gregorian Feb 2012 #5
Music, yeah... have you heard why Sarah McLachlan started Lilith Fair? redqueen Feb 2012 #19
I'm glad you are back! I think all of us need to take a break every now and then from this place. LiberalLoner Feb 2012 #7
i remember that.... nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #9
Jesus. redqueen Feb 2012 #20
No, he wasn't. I did alert but the post was in keeping with the standards of the DU community so it LiberalLoner Feb 2012 #32
well, (1) has been underway for a decade here iverglas Feb 2012 #8
Haven't seen much evidence of them anywhere, really. redqueen Feb 2012 #21
True that. ForeverLiberal Feb 2012 #10
Oh yes, I'm sure most girls and women learn that lesson very early on redqueen Feb 2012 #22
Welcome back! Great article... Violet_Crumble Feb 2012 #11
Thanks! redqueen Feb 2012 #23
Interesting. nt BlueIris Feb 2012 #12
? redqueen Feb 2012 #24
I meant the article. Your return is also...uh, interesting probably isn't the word. nt BlueIris Feb 2012 #27
Your evasiveness is not appreciated. redqueen Feb 2012 #28
I haven't had coffee yet. Welcome back. BlueIris Feb 2012 #29
Sorry. redqueen Feb 2012 #30
Yay! You're back! laconicsax Feb 2012 #13
:) redqueen Feb 2012 #25
i'm glad to see you. n/t Scout Feb 2012 #14
Thanks. redqueen Feb 2012 #26
this is so true Tumbulu Feb 2012 #33

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
1. .
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 06:46 PM
Feb 2012


Bookmarked to read the whole piece when I can devote time to it. I certainly was glad I took your advice on "Miss Representation".


Please don't leave. Please.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
15. You will enjoy it, I'm sure.
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:23 AM
Feb 2012


So glad you enjoyed Miss Representation. It's like a breath of fresh air, isn't it? To see women taking up this fight again is just outstanding.

DonCoquixote

(13,710 posts)
3. Glad to see you back.
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 06:48 PM
Feb 2012

Was the last paragraph in the article just chance, or was it something that also helped you?
(1) Ladies: even though you might not feel 100% welcome, grit your teeth and show up anyway, because there is power in numbers.

I am a male, and still say Amen to that.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
4. An excellent read. Thank you for posting this!
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 07:00 PM
Feb 2012

Extra bonus thanks because it involves the JREF, and has this hilariously apt cartoon in it

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
18. Isn't it?
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:29 AM
Feb 2012

Don't miss the linked comic that shows how every discussion about sexism goes on the internet, ever. It's even better.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
5. This saddening, but not surprising. And it is such a glorious field, despite what most people think.
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 07:02 PM
Feb 2012

I just finished watching a lecture series by Dr. Walter Lewin from MIT. He's an older man who obviously holds women in very high esteem. It's so sad to think that he may be a rare specie among the technical people out there. It was wonderful hearing how he gave great credit to his grandmother for her novel approaches to the things she did in her daily life.

I worked for a Russian engineer one time. I'll always remember how he collaborated with his mother to help design a method for processing poultry.

I'm sick of the weak minded, lazy attitude that so many men seem to carry around.

I yearn for a world where the participation from all is the norm. I just listened to a show on women in rock and roll. They're still intimidated. I don't remember who it was, but these two women were collaborating to create an environment where women in rock and roll could support each other and grow.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
19. Music, yeah... have you heard why Sarah McLachlan started Lilith Fair?
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:32 AM
Feb 2012

Things are better now, but as with all the groups mentioned in the piece linked in the OP, still very much male-dominated.

LiberalLoner

(10,104 posts)
7. I'm glad you are back! I think all of us need to take a break every now and then from this place.
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 07:28 PM
Feb 2012

I don't click on the rape or sexual abuse threads very often because I have had instances of getting really upset and horrified here on DU. One reply sticks out in particular...it was about fathers sexually abusing daughters...guy said he had a dog who regularly "raped" his own underage doggy daughter, and what was wrong with that, seeing as it was only natural? And what's natural for other animals, is surely natural for mankind....

That one sticks out in my mind, but there have been other somewhat less odious remarks.

Anyway, glad you are here. Yeah, we need to keep fighting.

LiberalLoner

(10,104 posts)
32. No, he wasn't. I did alert but the post was in keeping with the standards of the DU community so it
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 03:13 PM
Feb 2012

was left there. It's still there in the archives, I'm sure it's easy to find.

I took a break for awhile after that.

 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
8. well, (1) has been underway for a decade here
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 07:33 PM
Feb 2012

I wonder when (2), (3) and (4) can be expected?

(2) There are also women out there who do not believe this is an issue because they haven’t personally experienced it, or have experienced things they feel are far worse. Please do not diminish the experiences and emotions of your sisters in skepticism. Remain open to the possibility that you, too, might be unconsciously influenced by cultural baggage.

(3) Foster top-down change. Leadership, especially male leadership, needs to set the tone for what is and is not acceptable in a community. The 2007 APS report quotes Virginia Tech’s Patricia Hyer on this: “The voices of male heads … can carry great weight in moving forward an institutional change agenda, especially if they use their access to institutional leaders and personal prestige to make the case for gender equity.”

(4) Foster bottom-up change. Men at the grassroots level need to reinforce the leadership position and make it clear to their peers that such behavior is unacceptable. As former APS president Judy Franz said in the 2007 APS report, “If you make all your women … feel more valued by your speech and actions … and if you publicly chastise those that make demeaning or snide comments, you will find the rewards are great.”


Haven't seen much evidence of any of them at old DU.

(Yes, there is some (4). Very little, although what there is, is sincere and dedicated and appreciated.)

So the onus is still on the women who give a damn, then?

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
21. Haven't seen much evidence of them anywhere, really.
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:38 AM
Feb 2012

Still early days in the effort to defeat the patriarchy I'm afraid.

It seems that there are so many brands and flavors of different offshoots and sects of feminism, and many have focused on this or that particular area of concern -- not that that means that any area is being dimissed -- but apparently the idea of fighting the very deep-rooted and ancient idea of women as 'other' was pushed to the side.

It's to the point now that people don't even recognize what the patriarchy even *is*, dispute that it even *exists*, despite this being Sociology 101 kinda stuff (as opposed to 'women's studies' as so many like to attempt to belittle it as).

ForeverLiberal

(7 posts)
10. True that.
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 07:40 PM
Feb 2012

Sometimes I hate revealing that I'm a girl on the internet -- here come the sex/rape jokes, the 'get back in the kitchen', the general talking down to, the whatever else. And yes, the attacking -- like my opinions don't matter because I have a vagina.

But I will never let that affect me because, as it said, "There is power in numbers" and I won't let them win.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
22. Oh yes, I'm sure most girls and women learn that lesson very early on
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:39 AM
Feb 2012

in their forays onto the internet. Hopefully a parent will warn them of the situation so that they don't go in completely unaware and get blindsided by the ugliness.

Violet_Crumble

(36,142 posts)
11. Welcome back! Great article...
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 08:09 PM
Feb 2012

I had a bit of trouble getting past the mention of Tripod (love them!), but the article was well worth reading. Yr right. There's power in numbers, and I'm glad yr back, even though having breaks from DU at times is something that's a good idea, imo, having done it myself...

Back to Tripod. Here's a welcome back present. It's a very very early clip of them doing a piss-take of Oasis in a contest they entered on a show here. Enjoy...

&feature=related



BlueIris

(29,135 posts)
29. I haven't had coffee yet. Welcome back.
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 11:59 AM
Feb 2012

I'm afraid my own feelings about leaving remain the same: my enthusiasm declines with every passing day. Can't see it coming back. So I'm having trouble understanding your perspective.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
30. Sorry.
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 12:02 PM
Feb 2012

Thanks for explaining. I got an e-dressing down for calling it quits is what happened. I participate in other feminist spaces and when I shared my experience with someone I trust, and related that people had said they needed my voice and that it made me feel guilty for leaving, I was not-so-gently reminded of a time last year when I was pushing others to resist giving up. So basically I was guilted into it, I suppose. I don't mind though, it was good to be reminded why I had my old sig for so long.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
25. :)
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:42 AM
Feb 2012

It really is. She did a brilliant job of describing how deeply entrenched this stuff is in our culture and in our minds, how it affects all our behaviors and preconceptions.

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