That just happened to me yesterday, and I am looking for replies.

But I think the intent is to fluster and aggravate someone, hence make them angry, and then the point is ceded.

it's a tough one for sure.

by bringing tone into it, what they're really saying is they don't want to listen and getting them to see your point is going to be near impossible, no matter how you couch the conversation.

When someone says, "I refuse to deal with anyone who expresses herself that disrespectfully," they're telling you, one, they don't care to hear what she's saying or two, they know what she is saying is true but refuses to analyze their possible role in it.

is write that person off. who needs the aggravation and sure thing these kinds don't want to learn anything new. so, out damn spot. out of my life. piss off.

online is a different thing for me. I know the results will probably be the same - no effect, but it's a gestalt sort of thing for me more than anything and I know that there are other women who know what I am talking about here and I don't feel alone. In the real world too often you have to confront these things from a very lonely place.

Certainly it's best to ignore irritating people online and in real life if they aren't important to our lives. But there are lots of people we must figure out how to work with and negotiate with.

i dont either and lookie, i am sitting, minding my own business and someone sticks it in my face.

doesnt fly with me.

watch the threads. you will get outrage. what outrage, i made a comment
hysterical
vapors
overwrought.... what? ok, that is a cute one
afraid, panic. again, i made a comment. where the fuck is the fear and panic

they use it to create you as the shrill, screaming hysterical woman. more language we have used on women to make them so, regardless if they are. it is just biology, dontcha know.

the more conversation you find, you will see men telling you how out of control, disrespectful, as they ignore what you say and hurl names to demean and dismiss you. i get more and more patient. even keel. and they get more and more unreasonable. and still, they will point the finger.

women do all kinds of gymnastic acrobatics to contort themselves in a manner that will be acceptable voice for men, to be heard.

and it wont ever be good enough

so, let it go. dont even try to do all that contorting. you will be rewarded so few times, with success. just keep speaking out adn ignore the names and dismissing attitude. keep speaking out. dont let it slide.

women do all kinds of gymnastic acrobatics to contort themselves in a manner that will be acceptable voice for men, to be heard.

A friendly and dispassionate tone should only count in certain settings (dealing with strangers, academia, public settings).

Among friends and allies it shouldn't be needed, and if they say it is, they are not being very good friends or allies. IMO.

Last edited Fri Feb 10, 2012, 04:21 PM - Edit history (1)

What the person making the tone argument is saying is "I find your opinion rude and offensive to my privilege, but have chosen a dodge to silence you." If they can keep moving the goalposts, they know they can wear people down.

I always love the response where the person denies that they are stepping on your tail, because they know they are not the kind of person that steps on tails. Meanwhile, you've staring right down at their foot on your tail....

I confronted somebody recently about some serious communication issues, and his response was that it was impossible for him to have failed to communicate because he was a good communicator! He was not the "kind of person who doesn't communicate" and with that he blithely excused himself from months of really bad behavior.

Mostly online.

Women's points of view would be respected if only our tone weren't so....hysterical, whiny, strident, bitchy, difficult, over the top, passive-aggressive, shrill, immature, pouty, bossy, pushy, and so forth and so on.

It's catch-22. If we speak up then our tone is wrong. If we're quiet, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves for not speaking up for ourselves.

One solution is to become very skilled at communicating in the ways that men supposedly value - calm, controlled, self-confident but not forceful, etc. The challenge is that many people are not used to women speaking up, so even when we are self-confident but not forceful we are perceived as bitchy, pushy, etc. Women perceive us this way, too.

We have to change the culture to accept that women have as much of a right to speak up as men.

and to ask a question.... OMG, you would think you are challenging the person. what? i am looking for clarification.

i run into that all the time, causei am straight forward and blunt, precise. that is what men want, right? we are told repeatedly we go all over the place to get to the point. and men just say what they have to. when a woman just says what she has to, she is such a ______.... didnt wrap it up all pretty, first.

(hey, I'd probably just sound whiny -- I'm sure feeling whiny ...)

Just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading everything in this thread. Like, you know, not enjoyed the fact that any of it had to be said, but enjoyed seeing what everybody had to say.

I have to say, my recent experience with this really cause me to reevaluate my understanding of a few men who I had thought better of prior to this.

Unfortunately one of them is my boyfriend... but there is hope for him so I shall persevere.

This deflection tactic is definitely something I will be more aware of in the future.

Thanks everyone.